The Complete Military History of France
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
AlphaWolf
I prey, not pray.
Thats funny, we attempted the same thing in vietnam, cuba, nicuragua, and afganistan, and it didn't work. In fact, I would like to see a mention of when it did work.
No argument here.
Ah, you figured out how iraq works
More or less, thats how it may end up. But they don't have to support us. So?
I never said to change it, I said to look at it.
2fast4u said:
Ok, so, how do you propose we take care of the murderer? Just let him go and kindly ask his comrades to never murder again (even though we know it wont happen)? Or removing the support ground...How do we do that?
ShadowPrince
Moderator
This is what US trying to do,to "remove ground for terrorism" .
Seriously,how you suggest to "remove ground for terrorism" ?
Just sit and watch,when they will have nuke,and then make a nuclear test in some US city ( European city if you like) ?
Can you ensure that when Iraq gets nuke,it will not give it to some terror group ?
I think not,why the hell take any chances,need to strike them now,until its too late.
.Seriously,how you suggest to "remove ground for terrorism" ?
Just sit and watch,when they will have nuke,and then make a nuclear test in some US city ( European city if you like) ?
Can you ensure that when Iraq gets nuke,it will not give it to some terror group ?
I think not,why the hell take any chances,need to strike them now,until its too late.
2fast4u
New member
hold it right there ... so far it cant happen cuz there are still sanctions and bombs. i was explaining how it works w/o those.
see previous statement. i was talking in pure theory i must admit.
ironically thats what rumsfeld said he wanted to setup in iraq .. again ..
actually THAT is what ive been preaching for weeks in this thread. you remove ground support for terrorism by ending injustice. injustice includes bombing civilians, overthrowing democratic governments, etc. i never said you have to agree, i just havent heard anything in opposition to that .. so far all you have been preaching is violence as a solution for anything to which i disagree strongly. seriously, do you think acting against the democratic will of people and giving them a dictatorship (nicaragua) is a good thing just because it fits your interest?
/me sighs
so basically after "liberating" them you give them another government they dont want. where is your idealism?
like i said .. i did describe my solution all over the damn place.
shadowprince, about all here goes for you as well.
as posted. in my opinion the usa is creating more terrorism.
as posted
no, but thats why im supporting the inspections
ShadowPrince
Moderator
Problem is that everyone interpret "justice" as he want.
I strongly believe, that aggressor should be punished.Moreover if he choose to fight with terror.Time is over for those games in negotiations with terrorists and aggressive militaristic regimes.
The september attack is the direct consequence of US's last years policy of tolerance to terrorists.
Us did good job in Afganistan,ruling out all those radical islamic taliban folks out of the country . I sure they will do good job in making an Iraq as prosperous and rich as it's neighbors.
As a side note:
Actually if it's not US,i don't know how much of Europe would be under soviet control after WW2 . If you not sure,if it good or not,take your own country as an example,and compare western and eastern part. And it's the same people,i not even speak about Korea,and other nasty places that still under oppressive communistic regimes.No offence,i don't think you should be too proud of yourself,when you write communist under your nick name.
I strongly believe, that aggressor should be punished.Moreover if he choose to fight with terror.Time is over for those games in negotiations with terrorists and aggressive militaristic regimes.
The september attack is the direct consequence of US's last years policy of tolerance to terrorists.
Us did good job in Afganistan,ruling out all those radical islamic taliban folks out of the country . I sure they will do good job in making an Iraq as prosperous and rich as it's neighbors.
As a side note:
Actually if it's not US,i don't know how much of Europe would be under soviet control after WW2 . If you not sure,if it good or not,take your own country as an example,and compare western and eastern part. And it's the same people,i not even speak about Korea,and other nasty places that still under oppressive communistic regimes.No offence,i don't think you should be too proud of yourself,when you write communist under your nick name.
2fast4u
New member
first of all the wwII situation isnt comparable
second, soviet "communism" from 1924 on had nothing to do with communism like marx wrote, it was merely perverted. i stand for basic communistic ideas and so does vampireuk. therefore we can be proud of what we fight for and believe. :satisfied
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ShadowPrince
Moderator
Nothing to do with WW2,i just pointing out a fact,that US infact saved western europe from poverty and misery of socialistic /communistic regime and economy . And the examples was just to show you that communistic ideas just doesn't work on this planet. You wanna try it another time on some poor country or what ?
sytaylor
Sy
Correction, soviet communism has nothing to do with Marx's origional evaluation on how communism should work.. however by the latter years of his life, and in the changing world he realised that communism was not viable because economics had changed so much...
Personally I find fighting reality with ideology oxymoronic.. everyone has morals, and to assume they don't is a grave misjudgement of humanity. To assume someone is heartless because they don't promote an ideology is quite simply staggeringly naive.
It just makes so much more sense choose a realistic solution to real problems in the year 2003 rather than clinging to an outdated utopian ideaology since rejected by its author.
AlphaWolf
I prey, not pray.
2fast4u said:
No no no no NO. First of all, the terrorist organizations could give a damn if we stopped. They want their power. You think if we just left the taliban alone, they wouldn't want control over afganistan anymore? That they would just stop? The gang here is the allegory. Think of modern gangs, how do they work? So if we stop arresting criminals, then they wont commit anymore crimes? Lets get back to the murderer here. Would you punish the murderer, and hunt down his gang before they can take action? Or justify murder on his behalf?
The idea is to remove a government that is causing them problems, and let a (hopefully) better one take over. In theory, this works, because everybody in that country now knows how a government shouldn't be run, and hopefuly they can set up their own. But this is irrelavent to what I am asking you. I am asking you about criminal justice.
No, you did not. All you are describing is iraq. All we can conclude is that in your mind, the murderer should be let go, because you oppose violence of any kind, for any reason whatsoever. You uphold the rights of the criminal before the rights of the victim. Is that not the case?
2fast4u said:
And I am still waiting for your response to yet another issue. You didn't respond to my statement about how the North Vietnamese had a vision of true communism as carl marx defined it, yet communism managed to turn that country into a toilet.
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2fast4u
New member
the result was the new economy policy of 1921 which introduced a few basic elements of private ownership. good point, still no one ever claimed that pure socialism would work, even your beloved capitalism has socialist elements. when i spoke about perverted communism i was mainly refering to stalin. i dont think anyone will question that.
well there we go again ... you believe capitalism is the whole truth, thats fine with me. but dont walk around telling people what they believe is shit like youd know everything and especially not "outdated". you realize that the socialist movement introduced basic believement in human rights? those are values that cant be outdated, right?
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2fast4u
New member
true, but everyone is after power. still no one can gain power w/o support. now there is my old point again. the taliban regime would have never been able to get the power without public support. you still havent reacted to the thesis that the foreign policy has brought public support for terrorism.
maybe i havent made myself clear enough, _of course_ i want someone who did bad things to be punished ... _but_ .. if your stance is about criminal justice then you would have to go around the world and punish alles bad regimes. needless to say youd have to do alot. this would require LOTs of idealism from your part (pokes sy).
you as a person sound like you would be willing to go to war for that criminal justice, that shows me some degree of idealism. even tho i think bringing justice thru war is a fail-logic. sadly the american government is not after justice.
as much as we all would like to see all those dictators fall, we know its not possible to get rid of them all. i hope this clears up a bit.
therefore, my points:
a) they have to be removed by their own people
b) we cannot play the world police and step in like we carry the whole truth to "liberate" the people. it has proven so many times that this fails
c) IN MY VERY HUMBLE OPINION the iraq issue is_not_ about justice, its about self-interest (and im not exactly the only one with that opinion). but weve been over this so many times...
sadly i dont know enough about vietnamese history after the war. if you would be willing to brake it down for me go ahead.
sytaylor
Sy
I am well aware capitalism has socailistic points, its this flexibility which is what makes it the better solution imho. It can adapt socialistic aspects when a country needs it (like the UK in the 50s) or be more cut-throat capitalism when it needs it (ie. the UK in the 80s)
The point im making is that even marx admitted that from an economic standpoint Communism was outdated (even in his lifetime). As an entire form of government in the current climate it cannot work without force or screwing a nation over.
