Moral Dilemma

[AlphaWolf]

Let's remember the LARGEST GLOBAL PROTESTS in human history were conducted specifically in order to denounce Bush publically.

Tell that to the citizens of iraq.

Kennedy was planning to get out of Namm before he got whacked, so that's a special case. My guess is that was part of the reason he got whacked.

You are getting this information from some group of kennedy lovers who were doing their best to clear his name, and they haven't actually proven this. It's mostly just a mix of different conspiracy theories rolled into one.

Including significant portions of the US military, which has proven to be a large corrupt organization ever since.

You seem to know as much about the military (and the government as a whole) as you know about the legal system.

 

[Eagle]

Well, heres the biggest one that I mentioned specifically.

And how was this whole hostage situation Carter's fault. From what that article you yourself posted, Carter did what he could. Things like this happen in the world Alpha, nobody can control it. The mission was doomed to failure because of a sandstorm. Unless the US president has a weather machine we didnt know about, this was handled appropriately for the situation.

When did I say this? You are basically saying that just because the economy was in good standing at the time of their term in office, they were the ones responsible for making it that way. I am saying that bush had absolutely nothing to do with the economy dropping; it began doing that before he even made it to office, and it was bound to happen even if clinton somehow managed to have a third term.

But thats what I'm saying, the economy didnt noticably start to decline until Bush was elected into office. And now you want to blame it all on Clinton's administration.

Does NAFTA ring a bell? And black hawk down was about an incident in somalia that clinton dragged us into for no reason, and caused the deaths of those soldiers.

Yes, NAFTA does ring a bell, it was an excellent plan to unite the north american continent in trade without the worry of import taxes. I still support NAFTA. As for this black hawk down thing, well I think every president has had at least one incident where he messed up and could have done better but the point is he didnt continue making those kind of dire mistakes.

Speaking of clinton by the way, for you iraqi war protestors especially, I found an interesting tidbit a while back. It's a good thing that clinton didn't take any action, because the track record of the democrats (including clinton himself) would indicate that iraq would have been another vietnam, whereas bush is handling it just fine, and to put a democrat in charge of the current effort is definitely not something I want to experiment with on the next election day.

That article is malarky. But just look where you got it from, "The Weekly Standard". Who's weekly standard. Not mine. Clinton didnt send troops into iraq because he didnt feel it was necessary to inflame the situation caused by his predecessor. If he had it would not have been another Vietnam, thats mere speculation to say that it would be. What kind of evidence is there to support this? Track record? Were talking two completely different countries at two completely different time periods. There is no track record set for that. But you are right, Bush is handling it just fine. Blow the hell out of every one else with little reason and rule the world. Yep, that is handling it alright. We gave him the power to retaliate on the Al Queida after 9/11 and he abused it by pushing further into countries uninvolved with the incendent. And still he has found no REAL evidence of biological weapons. Everything they have found could be linked back to before Bush Sr. was in office, before we put restrictions on their weapon creation. We persecuted them for something they did before we told them they couldnt. Thats like arresting somebody for breaking a law 2 years ago that we just ratified last month.

 

[Remote]

I would say him, eventhough I'm nor american, but I would be after I saved him.. Who cares for a prize when you can get a shitload of money?

 

[sytaylor]

Who cares for a prize when you can get a shitload of money?

Strangest logic i ever heard.. If you can make money then making more still is pointless and un-rewarding, attaining other goals/prizes would make more sense logically.

But thats what I'm saying, the economy didnt noticably start to decline until Bush was elected into office.

Clinton rode the .com boom and you know it. Bush turned around a potentially massive crash using the albeit painful tax cuts. In the long term a powerhouse american economy is good for the world, as we are now seeing.

NAFTA does ring a bell, it was an excellent plan to unite the north american continent in trade without the worry of import taxes

If you strip off the NA.. you get fair trade agreement, which as far as I can tell this agreement is not. The result of NAFTA is mass outsourcing to other nations to workers being paid less and working under worse conditions. How is that fair? When everyone starts trading fairly you'll notice that skill shortages are patched up between nations in the short term, but whole industries don't move under fair trade agreements.

 

[Alchy]

There is nothing that could be worse for your "foreign image" than Bush, I promise you.

Based on?

...the fact that he's universally despised, on a global scale, more than any other single human being

Let's remember the LARGEST GLOBAL PROTESTS in human history were conducted specifically in order to denounce Bush publically

Tell that to the citizens of iraq.

Even Iraqis who hated Sadam resent the current American presence in Iraq.

I've come across this view from Americans before. Some of you seem to have this peculiar notion that, afer bombing their country and destroying their livelyhoods for the last 10 years, that they would welcome you with arms open after you invade their capital city, guns blazing. That democracy would be restored, and you could all go home heroes... in fact, you set a date: June 30th 2004. After which you're apparently going to leave the country to its own devices ("democratic" or not). And the way talks are going, that would mean widespread looting, chaos, insecurity and a complete lack of any reasonable kind of infrastructure - the joys of "freedom", I suppose.

 

[AlphaWolf]

And how was this whole hostage situation Carter's fault. From what that article you yourself posted, Carter did what he could.

Yes, and he was a pussy. He refused to allow the members of the rescue operations to kill any of the terrorists' guards at the embassy. Why? Because thats what democrats do, they let political correctness interfere with common sense. This is the same reason vietnam turned out the way that it did.

But thats what I'm saying, the economy didnt noticably start to decline until Bush was elected into office. And now you want to blame it all on Clinton's administration.

Yes, NAFTA does ring a bell, it was an excellent plan to unite the north american continent in trade without the worry of import taxes. I still support NAFTA.

What sy said on both accounts. Also, nafta is part of the reason our economy is shit today.

Clinton didnt send troops into iraq because he didnt feel it was necessary to inflame the situation caused by his predecessor.

You mean that we should have let iraq take over kuwait?

If he had it would not have been another Vietnam, thats mere speculation to say that it would be. What kind of evidence is there to support this? Track record?

Didn't I just mention somalia?

Blow the hell out of every one else with little reason and rule the world. Yep, that is handling it alright. We gave him the power to retaliate on the Al Queida after 9/11 and he abused it by pushing further into countries uninvolved with the incendent.

Even Iraqis who hated Sadam resent the current American presence in Iraq.

I've come across this view from Americans before. Some of you seem to have this peculiar notion that, afer bombing their country and destroying their livelyhoods for the last 10 years, that they would welcome you with arms open after you invade their capital city, guns blazing. That democracy would be restored, and you could all go home heroes... in fact, you set a date: June 30th 2004. After which you're apparently going to leave the country to its own devices ("democratic" or not). And the way talks are going, that would mean widespread looting, chaos, insecurity and a complete lack of any reasonable kind of infrastructure - the joys of "freedom", I suppose.

You guys want to know something funny? The media lies their asses off to you guys. They only report the bad shit because you guys really do in fact love it, and you listen to them more and more when they give you lots of drama, because you too allow political correctness to overcome your common sense. Theres a lot more good shit than bad shit happening there these days, you guys just never hear about it.

It gets better too. I'll swear that slashdot is the most anti-bush crowd there ever was. (hell, most of them loved the idea of a renewed space program, but suddenly hated the idea after bush announced a plan for one.) Yet when slashdot interviewed somebody in iraq who participates in a linux users group, they got one hell of a revelation which contradicted everything they believed about bush and iraq. You can see it for yourself here. Better yet, look at this old post I made a while back.

And still he has found no REAL evidence of biological weapons. Everything they have found could be linked back to before Bush Sr. was in office, before we put restrictions on their weapon creation. We persecuted them for something they did before we told them they couldnt. Thats like arresting somebody for breaking a law 2 years ago that we just ratified last month.

Go read that article again.

...the fact that he's universally despised, on a global scale, more than any other single human being

Ah, more than hitler, bin laden, and saddam? Thats the problem with you guys, you allow groupthink to completely override your common sense. You just hate bush simply to hate him, nevermind his policies, and thats all there is to it, and all there ever will be.

Anyways, I am done with this thread, I've got a lot of homework ahead of me the next few days/weeks and will no longer have the time to reply. You guys take the last words.

 

[Eagle]

Ah, more than hitler, bin laden, and saddam? Thats the problem with you guys, you allow groupthink to completely override your common sense. You just hate bush simply to hate him, nevermind his policies, and thats all there is to it, and all there ever will be.

Actually I agree with you there. Bush is a terrible president, but I have to believe that he thinks he is doing the right thing. While I believe he is attempting to force the US upon other nations, I dont believe he is quite as bad as Hitler, Bin Laden, or Saddam.

We dont allow goupthink to override common sense. We just dont want to go blasting the hell out of every one and sort it out afterwards. Thats how the Al Quieda grew to hate us in the first place. We like to make sure we know what were doing before we do it. Repulicans say shoot first, ask questions later. To me they are not using common sense.

 

[Alchy]

Ah, more than hitler, bin laden, and saddam?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,839417,00.html
"President George Bush is seen by a third of Britons as a bigger threat to world safety than Saddam Hussein"
I'm not saying they're right, just backing up what I said about him being hated. And don't stick Hitler in there, he's dead.

Thats the problem with you guys, you allow groupthink to completely override your common sense. You just hate bush simply to hate him, nevermind his policies, and thats all there is to it, and all there ever will be.

Argue with my views, but don't you dare insinuate that they're based on mob mentality.

Anyways, I am done with this thread, I've got a lot of homework ahead of me the next few days/weeks and will no longer have the time to reply. You guys take the last words.

Why is it Republican arguments always run out of steam before mine?