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Talas

Son of the Sky
Flash said:
They all are perverts. I don't understand why some people consider gays "more normal" than zoophiles or fetishists (fetishism is probably less dangerous type of perversion but.... :D)

´course its normal, there are even gay animals. Why shouldnt it be normal to be gay? Fetishism is something else though.
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
zAlbee said:
Yes, but I am doubting whether they have actually been cured. The problem likely arose out of a combination of physical (if not genetic, then certainly hormonal) and psychological factors, so only psychology alone as a cure seems sketchy.

They have :D (or at least to the best of our knowledge, but then thats all that you can say about any given psychological condition) http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34943

I personally doubt that there is any physical (genetic) cause for this. I believe that it probably is hormone related, but like many chemicals in the body, hormones will be secreted more or less than they should be depending on the state of mind of the subject, (for example, from different types of stress) which can cause the problems at hand.

But, the absolute truth at this point is: nobody knows.

Talas said:
Why shouldnt it be normal to be gay? Fetishism is something else though.

IMO fetish and gay are the same (e.g. how some men can't get off unless they are touching a womans' feet,) but like I said, out of sight out of mind. If my weird neighbor can keep his foot fetish to himself, why can't another keep his homo fetish to himself? (in other words, I like it that nobody arranges foot fetish pride parades)
 
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Talas

Son of the Sky
Yea Alpha, I do understand what you mean. I also dont like this in-your-face attitude of many gay and lesbian people. But I try to tolerate it, after all, they have been (and still are) discriminated for their sexual life. And I still dont think that being gay and having a fetish is the same. After all, its normal if you go into a park with your girlfriend and kiss her. Why should that be more normal then a guy kissing a guy?
 
AlphaWolf said:
I know this will piss a lot of people off (its what I do, deal with it :p) but I personally class all of these sex fetish things in the same category. Some people like dead bodies, animals, and little boys, even gay people often look down upon transexuals, but IMO they are all in the same. All of them have been treated with psychological therapy in far more than one case, and if one should be considered a medical problem then all of them should. But, provided they keep me out of it, I guess if its out of sight its out of mind *shrug*

The difference is a fetish can manifest itself at any point in life. Someone can be completley not interested in something until a trigger awakens their interest usually by exposure. Homosexuality and other gender disorders (i've named them as such because they limit the human ability to survive therefore its an evolutionary handicap), differ by being awakened at puberty (yet perhaps not realised until early adulthood.)
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
sytaylor said:
The difference is a fetish can manifest itself at any point in life. Someone can be completley not interested in something until a trigger awakens their interest usually by exposure.

AFAIK the same thing can happen with homo fetishes. On bill o'reilly, some guy was saying that he knew he was gay when he was 6, somebody else said 32.

hybrid23 said:
i'm bi, i'm a little bit of a foot fetish

Was it really necessary to say that?
 

Talas

Son of the Sky
sytaylor said:
The difference is a fetish can manifest itself at any point in life. Someone can be completley not interested in something until a trigger awakens their interest usually by exposure. Homosexuality and other gender disorders (i've named them as such because they limit the human ability to survive therefore its an evolutionary handicap), differ by being awakened at puberty (yet perhaps not realised until early adulthood.)

Ahm, the thing with the evolutionary handicap doesnt count. If that was so you couldnt use a condome without being a fetishist. After all, when you use one you also cant make kids, same goes for blowjobs ;-)).
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
Talas said:
Ahm, the thing with the evolutionary handicap doesnt count. If that was so you couldnt use a condome without being a fetishist. After all, when you use one you also cant make kids, same goes for blowjobs ;-)).

I think he is mostly referring to a homo that is impotent towards women.
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
Talas said:
What do you mean?

Well, most gays react physically the same way towards women that most normal men react towards other men if you get my drift. You can't really make a slam dunk if you can't slam.
 
AlphaWolf said:
AFAIK the same thing can happen with homo fetishes. On bill o'reilly, some guy was saying that he knew he was gay when he was 6, somebody else said 32.

True, but that is not indicative of the entire spectrum of homosexuals and would perhaps be the exception to the rule.
 

Talas

Son of the Sky
@Alpha

Sorry pally, I dont get your point. You cant slamdunk when there is a condome inside the basket either. ;-)
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
Talas said:
You cant slamdunk when there is a condome inside the basket either. ;-)

You can always remove that when you want to score though. Impotence just can't score period.
 

rcgamer

the old guy
Talas said:
´course its normal, there are even gay animals. Why shouldnt it be normal to be gay? Fetishism is something else though.

in this case the word normal would mean what is done by a vast majority of human beings. being gay is in no way normal. if you mean normal in the literal sense of the word. men were born with a penis that is to be used to impregnate a woman through sexual contact. "normal" people know this instinctively at some point in there life. animals are not gay. the dog you see humping another male dog one day will mount a female dog just as quickly the next day(I have never seen a male dog that will only mount another male dog).

what alphawolf is saying is that if homosexuality is a genetic or psychological condition then they have no choice as to wether they are able to have children. but using a condom is a choice made consciously to prevent it. and can be unmade at any time.
 
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zorbid

New member
Huuu, social darwinism at it's worst.

First, I want to say that I find that Miriam story disgusting, as Clements has already pointed it out.



Alpha, and RC gamer, if I understand well, your argumentation is backed up by the assumption that perpetuating life at the personnal scale is good, and that anything that pervents you of transmitting your DNA is bad (mostly, he). Did you ever thought that life is rather pointless... The life on earth will most probably cease to exist some day, anyway...

The main goal of everyone on earth is to try to be happy, not to perpetuate life. Most sexual perversions don't harm anybody anybody, anyway.


About normality:

If you consider that that majority == normality, then blonde people with blue eyes are definitely not normal at an internationnal scale...

If you think that what's natural is good, and that human should take example on the animals, then please turn off your computer immediately, I don't know of any animal besides man that would be able to use a computer the way you do. The natural/artificial distinction is very pretentious. Man is an animal. Humanity is a part of the nature. Every human behaviour is therefore natural.

About straight sex as an instinctive behaviour... You should assist to some fertility consultations at the local hospital, you'd be surprised. Couples who try very hard to make babies either by putting the dick in the ass or the umbilic do exist :)


The medical point of view:

Psychology and neurology are immensely complex, and it won't be fully understood anytime soon. I wouldn't build any ethic theory based on this. It's not because there is no gay gene that genes don't have any impact. There are lots of stuff that rely on polygenic phenomenons.

A few more biological oddities:

- If you make a testosterone injection to a straight female, you will raise her sexual appetite... for men!! (the fact that men think about sex more often than women is related to the amount of testosterone in the blood :) )

- There are people with only one X and no Y, it's a disease called Turner Syndrome. They are sterile woman with stripped ovaries, who never enter puberty unless they are given estrogens.

- Long, but interresting: The androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS). These are people whith an XY genotype and a knocked out androgen receptor. They have working testes that produce tons of testosterone (more than in normal males, because there is a negative feedback loop that implies the same receptor) They look like females (with no uterus), because the expression of the male phenotype during embryogenesis depends on cell response to androgens secreted by the testes during foetal life. Their testes remain inside the abdomen. The testes become quiet during childhood, then awaken at the puberty. They produce, once again tons of testosterone, which is partially turned into estrogens by periferal tissues. The estrogen concentration is similar to what a girl would have, and as a consequence, they have a feminie puberty, except two things: a) they never have periods, since they don't have an uterus. b) they don't have any pubic or axilary hair, sice these depend on androgene sensitivity of hair cells. Jamie Lee Curtis is alleged to suffer from AIS.

- There are XX males as well, although not fertile ..


It's way too easy to medicalise a problem and claim boo, they are not normal doctors say so.. It's not because it homosexuality has been traeted as a disease that it is a disease.


About homosexuality:

Homosexuality is a fact. The problem is not homosexuality in itself, but the way the society, ie most people look at homosexuals. In ancient Greece, it was a perfectly tolerated phenomenon. It isn't the case nowadays in most places in the world, mainly due to the strong influence of the Bible on our culture.

It's not a boolean phenomenon. Some people are "100%" straight, some are 100% homosexual, some are 100% bisexual (no preference, about both sex and love) and some are in between these extremes. This could explain the partial results of the psychotherapy.

Homosexualtiy is not only about sex, it's also about love, and social life. I know a guy who never fell in love for a girl in his whole life. He does fall with boys though. He's human, he longs for couple life and this kind of things. But this is badly judged by a large part of the people.

Homosexualtiy has been medicalised, there have been attempts for decades to "cure" it with little results. Maybe someday there will come an effective way to turn every single gay/lesbian into a straight. Meanwhile what do you do?

Since they are in no way a threat to the society, I don't understand why they would be to blame...





About transexuals.

Provided that transexuals are people with a real sexual identity problem, I think that someone who is surgically transgendered has toi be considered as a sterile person of it's new physical sex.

I don't like ambiguous people, though...
 
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Talas

Son of the Sky
rcgamer said:
in this case the word normal would mean what is done by a vast majority of human beings. being gay is in no way normal. if you mean normal in the literal sense of the word. men were born with a penis that is to be used to impregnate a woman through sexual contact. "normal" people know this instinctively at some point in there life. animals are not gay. the dog you see humping another male dog one day will mount a female dog just as quickly the next day(I have never seen a male dog that will only mount another male dog).

what alphawolf is saying is that if homosexuality is a genetic or psychological condition then they have no choice as to wether they are able to have children. but using a condom is a choice made consciously to prevent it. and can be unmade at any time.

´course its conscious and you can always change it. But still, here in Europe, as many of you know, the birth rate is falling. And I dont see that making no children is an argument against homosexuality, so many heteros also dont make kids and its absolutely ok.

As to the animal thing, I do think that I have read that GAY animals exist. Sheep and apes to be exact. And yes they ONLY mount male pardners.

@Zorbid

Read most of your post and I agree.

@Alphawolf

Actually, in feudal Japan high ranking Buke (Samurai) would only sleep with women for the sole purpose of making kids. Most of the time they were having sex with males because those belonged to the strong sex. (Source: The Hagakure) I wouldnt say at all that being gay (or lesbian) is something that needs a cure. You can read about gay people in ancient rome too. (Not those Metrosexuals, I mean real gay men who were disgusted by the thought of sleeping with a female.)
 

rcgamer

the old guy
Alpha, and RC gamer, if I understand well, your argumentation is backed up by the assumption that perpetuating life at the personnal scale is good, and that anything that pervents you of transmitting your DNA is bad (mostly, he). Did you ever thought that life is rather pointless... The life on earth will most probably cease to exist some day, anyway...

The main goal of everyone on earth is to try to be happy, not to perpetuate life. Most sexual perversions don't harm anybody anybody, anywa

I never made any such argument. I simply restated what alpha said in order for the other poster to understand his meaning.

About normality:

If you consider that that majority == normality, then blonde people with blue eyes are definitely not normal at an internationnal scale...

first i will say i find the comparison ridiculous ,but , if you read my post i said if you are going by the literal meaning of the word normal , so again i would say yes. if you are using the word as it is defined.

If you think that what's natural is good, and that human should take example on the animals, then please turn off your computer immediately, I don't know of any animal besides man that would be able to use a computer the way you do. The natural/artificial distinction is very pretentious. Man is an animal. Humanity is a part of the nature. Every human behaviour is therefore natural.
i never said any such thing. I simply responded to the post about gay dogs.

About straight sex as an instinctive behaviour... You should assist to some fertility consultations at the local hospital, you'd be surprised. Couples who try very hard to make babies either by putting the dick in the ass or the umbilic do exist .
again read my post, normal people , any adult male or female who thinks you can get pregnant from anal sex is clearly not of normal intelligence.

as for the rest i have no comment as i never argued against homosexuality. but i do agree with alpha as far as the original topic was concerned.
 
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sir_key

Banned
AlphaWolf said:
Was it really necessary to say that?
well first people want to know every gay and bi person and every fetish so they can protect themselves and as soon as you said it nobody wants to hear it :)
 
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