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Interesting debate on existance of god, worth a read 2

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Sukh

Long gone...
Does it matter what anyone else said? As long as people like you listen to what was said thousands of years ago there will always be conflict. Religion, especially restricting religion doesn't evolve as society does. Just look at the conflict it is causing on this forum :)

Nobody can prove or disprove God as such. As long as people keep on preaching, it'll be a pain. This argument is has been around forever and will not be solved in out lifetime.
 

DuDe

Emu64 Staff
Mohammed Yousif said:
stop this non-sense now.
you claim that you -you who live in the so called 'israel'- are Israel people , but you aren't.
Jews believe that they are exiled as a punishment but aftet all that , you are still trying to setup Israel , while Jewish prohibites Israel People from setting up a country of their own

Even Qur'an states that in 'Sorat Bani Israel (Al-Israa)'



and yeah , God gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power, but unfortunately you are still doing sins and God will punish you again and again until you stop that.

Well cut my legs and call me shortey, we got ourselves a believer here! Hot damn, he`s gonna start quoting koran verses now! He`s a fucking smartie, ain`t he? Woo-fucking-hoo, answer me that boy : WHY DO YOU THINK I GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT SHITS LIKE YOU?
 
"the one who can create that universe is obviously someone VERY POWERFULL (can you deny?)"

yes i can deny that... here I HENCE FORTH DENY THAT

you know why? you're assuming the universe was created... thats a contricted view to base youre beliefs on, i prefer to consider all options... the fact is you nor any of us know that the universe was created so why say it was? because you have religious beliefs still doesnt make you right

and youre story about the lack of something not being something else is merley a perception argument... in language we have developed opposites, something that is not very tall is called small... but its "height" is small... it doesnt make small any less real, and as such youre play (or someone elses play) on the way we view things doesnt proove god at all
 
you know why? you're assuming the universe was created... thats a contricted view to base youre beliefs on, i prefer to consider all options... the fact is you nor any of us know that the universe was created so why say it was?
simply because things can't come from nothing (a very basic rule)
there must be someone who created it , and that DOES include EVERYTHING including yourself (who created you , you will say my mother , ah your mother and who created her and who created Adam the first human , you may say something about monkeys , then who created monkeys , Did you ever see a monkey forming itself from nothing with your eyes ? Did you see ANYTHING forming itself from nothing ?)
obviously things can NOT create itself , there must be creator for anything!

and Suckh , you stop talking about him , because he suffered a lot from Israel People , he saved them , but their way to thank him is to disobey his orders and go the wrong side and even worship a cow made by THEMSELVES.
and now , they just can't stop doing sins , because it seems to be their nature
 
here is some of their story with mosis (peace on him) quoted from Qur'an , and even if you don't believe in Qur'an you still can consult some history book to make sure this story is correct

From "Sorat Taha" :
[9] Has the story of Moses reached thee?

[10] Behold, he saw a fire: so he said to his family, "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."

[11] But when he came to the fire, a voice was heard: "O Moses!

[12] "Verily I am thy Lord! therefore (in My presence) put off thy shoes: thou art in the sacred valley Tuwa.

[13] "I have chosen thee: listen, then to the inspiration (sent to thee).

[14] "Verily, I am Allah: there is no god but I: so serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise.

[15] "Verily the Hour is coming - My design is to keep it hidden - for every soul to receive its reward by the measure of its Endeavour.

[16] "Therefore let not such as believe not therein but follow their own lusts, divert thee therefrom, lest thou perish!"

[17] "And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?"

[18] He said, "It is my rod: on it I lean; with it I beat down fodder for my flocks; and in it I find other uses."

[19] (Allah) said, "Throw it, O Moses!"

[20] He threw it, and behold! it was a snake, active in motion.

[21] (Allah) said, "Seize it, and fear not: We shall return it at once to its former condition."

[22] "Now draw thy hand close to thy side: it shall come forth white (and shining), without harm (or stain), - as another Sign, -

[23] "In order that We may show thee (two) of Our Greater Signs.

[24] "Go thou to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds."

[25] (Moses) said: "O my Lord! expand me my breast;"

[26] "Ease my task for me;

[27] "And remove the impediment from my speech,

[28] "So they may understand what I say:

[29] "And give me a Minister from my family,

[30] "Aaron, my brother;

[31] "Add to my strength through him,

[32] "And make him share my task:

[33] "That we may celebrate Thy praise without stint,

[34] "And remember Thee without stint:

[35] "For Thou art He that (ever) regardeth us."

[36] (Allah) said: "Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!"

[37] "And indeed We conferred a favour on thee another time (before).

[38] "Behold! We sent to thy mother, by inspiration, the message:

[39] "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him'; but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye."

[40] "Behold! thy sister goeth forth and said. "Shall I show you one who will nurse and rear the (child)? So We brought thee back to thy mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve. Then thou didst slay a man, but We saved thee from trouble, and We tried thee in various ways. Then didst thou tarry a number of years with the people of Madyan. Then didst thou come hither as ordained, O Moses!

[41] "And I have prepared thee for Myself (for service)."

[42] "Go, thou and thy brother, with My Signs, and slacken not, either of you, in keeping Me in remembrance.

[43] "Go, both of you to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;

[44] "But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)"
[45] They (Moses and Aaron) said: "Our Lord! we fear lest he hasten with insolence against us, or lest he transgress all bounds."

[46] He said: "Fear not: for I am with you: I hear and see (everything).

[47] "So go ye both to him, and say, 'Verily we are Messengers sent by thy Lord: send forth, therefore, the Children of Israel with us, and afflict them not: with a Sign, indeed, have we come from thy Lord! and Peace to all who follow guidance!

[48] "`Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty (awaits) those who reject and turn away.'"

[49] (When this message was delivered), (Pharaoh) said: Who, then, O Moses, is the Lord of you two?"

[50] He said: "Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it) guidance."

[51] (Pharaoh) said: "What then is the condition of previous generations?"

[52] He replied: "The knowledge of that is with my Lord, duly recorded: my Lord never errs, nor forgets,

[53] "He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

[54] Eat (for yourselves) and pasture your cattle: verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding.

[55] From the (earth) did We create you, and into it shall We return you, and from it shall We bring you out once again.

[56] And We showed Pharaoh all Our Signs, but he did reject and refuse.

[57] He said: "Hast thou come to drive us out of our land with thy magic, O Moses?

[58] "But we can surely produce magic to match thine! so make a tryst between us and thee, which we shall not fail to keep - neither we nor thou - in a place where both shall have even chances."

[59] Moses said: "Your tryst is the Day of the Festival, and let the people be assembled when the sun is well up."

[60] So Pharaoh withdrew: he concerted his plan, and then came (back).

[61] Moses said to them: "Woe to you! forge not ye a lie against Allah, lest He destroy you (at once) utterly by chastisement: the forger must suffer frustration!"

[62] So they disputed, one with another, over their affair, but they kept their talk secret.

[63] They said: "These two are certainly (expert) magicians their object is to drive you out from your land with their magic, and to do away with your most cherished institutions.

[64] "Therefore concert your plan, and then assemble in (serried) ranks: he wins (all along) today who gains the upper hand."

[65] They said "O Moses! whether wilt thou that thou throw (first) or that we be the first to throw?"

[66] He said, "Nay, throw ye first!" then behold their ropes and their rods - so it seemed to him on account of their magic, began to be in lively motion!

[67] So Moses conceived in his mind a (sort of) fear.

[68] We said, "Fear not! for thou hast indeed the upper hand:

[69] "Throw that which is in thy right hand: quickly will it swallow up that which they have faked: what they have faked is but a magician's trick: and the magician thrives not, (no matter) where he goes."

[70] So the magicians were thrown down to prostration: they said, "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."

[71] (Pharaoh) said: "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic! be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees: so shall ye know for certain which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting Punishment!"

[71] (Pharaoh) said: "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic! be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees: so shall ye know for certain which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting Punishment!"

[72] They said: "Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us or than Him Who created us! so decree whatever thou desirest to decree: for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world.

[73] "For us, we have believed in our Lord: may He forgive us our faults, and the magic to which thou didst compel us: for Allah is Best and Most Abiding."

[74] Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgment), for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.

[75] But such as come to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds, for them are ranks exalted,

[76] Gardens of Eternity, beneath which flow rivers: they will dwell therein for aye: such is the reward of those who purify themselves (from evil).

[77] We sent an inspiration to Moses: "Travel by night with My servants, and strike a dry path for them through the sea, without fear of being overtaken (by Pharaoh) and without (any other) fear."

[78] Then Pharaoh pursued them with his forces, but the waters completely overwhelmed them and covered them up.

[79] Pharaoh led his people astray instead of leading them aright.

[80] O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you on the right side of Mount (Sinai), and We sent down to you Manna and quails:

[81] (Saying): "Eat of the good things We have provided for your sustenance, but commit no excess therein, lest My Wrath should justly descend on you and those on whom descends My Wrath do perish indeed!

[82] "But, without doubt, I am (also) He that forgives again and again, to those who repent, believe, and do right, who, in fine, are ready to receive true guidance."

[83] (When Moses was up on the Mount, Allah said): "What made thee hasten in advance of thy people, O Moses?"

[84] He replied: "Behold, they are close on my footsteps I hastened to Thee, O my Lord, to please Thee."

[85] (Allah) said: "We have tested thy people in thy absence: the Samiri has led them astray."

[86] So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: "O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?"

[87] They said: "We broke not the promise to thee, as far as lay in our power: but we were made to carry the weight of the ornaments of the (whole) people, and we threw them (into the fire), and that was what the Samiri suggested.

[88] "Then he brought out (of the fire) before the (people) the image of a calf: it seemed to low: so they said: 'This is your god, and the god of Moses, but (Moses) has forgotten!"

[89] Could they not see that it could not return them a word (for answer), and that it had not power either to harm them or to do them good?

[90] Aaron had already, before this said to them: "O my people! ye are being tested in this: for verily your Lord is (Allah) Most Gracious: so follow me and obey my command."

[91] They had said: "We will not abandon this cult, but we will devote ourselves to it until Moses returns to us."

[92] (Moses) said: "O Aaron! what kept thee back, when thou sawest them going wrong,

[93] "From following me? Didst thou then disobey my order?"

[94] (Aaron) replied: "O son of my mother! seize (me) not by my beard nor by (the hair of) my head! truly I feared lest thou shouldst say, 'Thou hast caused a division among the Children of Israel, and thou didst not respect my word!"

[95] (Moses) said: "What then is thy case. O Samiri?"

[96] He replied: "I saw what they saw not, so I took a handful (of dust) from the footprint of the Messenger, and threw it (into the calf): thus did my soul suggest to me."

[97] (Moses) said: "Get thee gone! but thy (punishment) in this life will be that thou wilt say, 'Touch me not'; and moreover (for a future penalty) thou hast a promise that will not fail: now look at thy god, of whom thou hast become a devoted worshipper: we will certainly (melt) it in a blazing fire and scatter it broadcast in the sea!"

[98] But the God of you all is Allah: there is no god but He: all things He comprehends in His knowledge.

[99] Thus do We relate to thee some stories of what happened before: for We have sent thee a Message from Our own Presence
 
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Martin

Active member
Administrator
This discussion is getting out of hand, don't make me close it. No names mentioned. Fair?
 

Sukh

Long gone...
Oh Gawd,

I refuse to post on this thread any longer. Yousif, I encourage you to think for yourself and not be dictated to by other people and ideologies.
 
What you on about cows? If everything has to be created, what created God?
yes in our thinking , everything has to be created.
but God didn't give us lots of thinking (all we know is only very little compared to the knowledge of God).

so I will put you in a maze :
you ask who created the creator of everything
I will answer it's someone
and you will ask me who created that one
and I will answer someone else more powerful
and you will ask me who created that one that has more powers
and I will answer someone else have more and more powers
...................................................................
...................................................................
...................................................................
...................................................................
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

see ? our thinking is limited , we can't think of it more than that (can you?)

so let's not talk about the creator , let's talk about the creatures
let's think of them as things someone create
who creates him ? from where did he come first ? ...etc
we don't know
our thinking is far limited , so we can't know
but thanks god , he already answered to these questions for us (because he created us , he knows that we don't know anything about these questions)

from 'Sorat Al-Ikhlas
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[4] And there is none like unto Him.
 

sk8bloke22

roll for life
RPGlover12 said:
he's existance is way toooooooooooooooooo hard to prove cause 75% of them are baised on religion like the sites i've gaven still some stuff in quran found to be right like actually all of them quran never missed a thing but am loookin for a way to prove god by science so i will try as hard as i can ,and this debate will never end :D

and plenty of ppl with scientific degrees are going to greater lengths to prove that he doesnt exist. uve nailed the point, the debate will never end cos theres no answer, until ppl understand that, the less we need to spam the bitch out of martins server.

lol, mohammed yousif, dont bring in the arab/israeli conflict into this...its just a racist and horrible thing that if anything just shows how horrific religion really is.

according to most ancient religions, women's role is minimal, if anything...completely patriachical...the most basic example is, if god is a divine being, why is god referred to as a He, an early and very very basic sample of how old religions reflect the political principles of their times of their origins. most world religions were created in a time when women were considered inferior to men. its only in the 20th century when attitudes begun to change. similar thing to homosexuality.

let ppl believe wat they want, just dont let ur beliefs dominate others. nothing wrong with sharing a view, debating, but thats wat i dont like about religions...often those supposedly righteously higher in the religious ladder (eg. rabbis, preists, etc) impose their beliefs on ppl. bah, this thread has been going on 2 long.... ???
 
why is god referred to as a He, an early and very very basic sample of how old religions reflect the political principles of their times of their origins
hehehe
the Qura'n dictates that God is no male and no female , God is the one and Only , you cannot say that God is male or female , God is not a creature , God is the creator.
about refering to God by (he) because of the limitation of the language itself as we - human beings - have limited thinking.
and the language is one of our products which have lots to do with civilizations in general.
For example, English doesn't have any non-male/non-female pronoun and this is why PEOPLE (not god) refer to god by (he).
now, can you get it?

dont bring in the arab/israeli conflict into this...its just a racist and horrible thing that if anything just shows how horrific religion really is.
actually not me who did , it's history (blame it if you want)
it's like killing someone and when his family blames you about that , you say "see how horrible is the family relationship!!".

according to most ancient religions, women's role is minimal
Sorry , but this is not true.
but you may have a point because , most the religions got changed by a way or another.
Take current Christianity as an example :
The Judaeo-Christian conception of the creation of Adam and Eve is narrated in detail in Genesis 2:4-3:24. God prohibited both of them from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. The serpent seduced Eve to eat from it and Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her. When God rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve, "The woman you put here with me --she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it." Consequently, God said to Eve:

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."

To Adam He said:

"Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree .... Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life..."


So you may be true in that but for Islam , a woman take ALL OF HER RIGHTS
O Adam dwell with your wife in the Garden and enjoy as you wish but approach not this tree or you run into harm and transgression. Then Satan whispered to them in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them and he said: 'Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you become angels or such beings as live forever.' And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: 'Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?' They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost' " (7:19:23).
now you see , you have mind to think with
Islam really respects woman and gave her ALL OF HER RIGHTS unlike other (current) religions (this maybe the point you don't believe in religions for , but you will change your mind if you 'truely' understand Islam)
for more info about the rights of women in Islam, have a look at :
http://www.geocities.com/window2islam/books/womeninjudeochris.html
and keep the Qur'an handy from here:
http://www.al-islam.com
so you can easily make sure this is really from Qur'an

often those supposedly righteously higher in the religious ladder (eg. rabbis, preists, etc) impose their beliefs on ppl
Again , this is not applicable for Islam.
a 'Shiekh' is not someone who looks different or acts differently
it's someone who 'tries' to do what Qur'an dictates
Muslims deal with 'Shiekh' the same way they deal with other Muslims, actually the word 'Shiekh' have nothing to do with Islam , it's an arabic word , but it's used for those old-aged good muslims nowadays.
but as you see , we ONLY worship god with no priest or rabba to take our sins ;)
nothing can make you goto a 'Sheikh' and tell him you sins so he can tell god, In Islam If you want something from God , ask God directly and don't go to a 'Sheikh' or it will be 'Sherk' which is an arabic word meaning "praising someone besides God"

If you wanna know about Islam , please have a look at:
http://www.al-islam.com
http://www.isalmway.com
and note :
THERE ARE LOTS OF WEBSITES CLAIMING THAT THEY PROVIDE YOU WITH ISLAMIC MATERIAL , WHILE THEY ARE ACTUALLY LIE
 
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You look like a kid and surely act like one.
Just kidding.
LOL
this is a 3 years old picture
I'm too lazy to take another picture , just ordered the Photographic Studio to make me copies of this old pictures when I need. :p
 
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AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
Mohammed Yousif: interesting argument you posted earlier, but its main point has a hole in it:

The absence of good doesn't mean you have evil. If a doctor isn't curing an illness, rather instead he is casualy sitting down, he is doing evil? He has to be doing good 24/7 in order to not be "sinning"?. The muslim in this passage uses good/evil as a physical existence, where its not, it describes actions. Light/Dark, and Hot/Cold describe the presense, or lack of presense of something physical.

This passage you posted is one sided. The professor would have quickly cought on to the muslims logic after he made his first point (even I did, and I'm probably dumb as a rock when it comes to philosiphy) and countered properly with each additional point. The professor would have known and would have been able to explain the difference between what science theorizes and what science knows.

Currently evolution is not a proven fact, as a matter of fact, a guy who died recently (his name escapes me) had contradicting theories which still didn't coincide with creationism. His theory starts with the primordial soup that evolution starts from, but at certain generations there were massive 'sudden' changes, probably caused by drastic changes in the earths climate (of which many are known, IE the ice age) which would explain why we haven't found the "missing link".

My personal belief is that nobody can prove or disprove god, just as nobody can currently prove or disprove evolution. I also believe that if there is a god, all of the current religions have it wrong. I believe in the primordial soup theory. Weather it was created by a more intelligent greater being (IE god) is unknown, and will not be known for some time to come, just as you do not know who or if anybody created god. The only way we will ever find out a definite answer to that is to constantly create new theories, test them, adopt the ones that prove correct, rid of the ones that prove wrong, until the last peice of the puzzle is put in place. Your religion doesn't allow this, rather instead it creates one idea, and if anybody thinks otherwise, they should be mocked and ridiculed.
 
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