What's new

Interesting debate on existance of god, worth a read 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
"common ownership was never fully implemented, and the dictatorship was never temporary"

you know why? human greed/natural selection, those who can do well in life will never sit by and take second best. To be honest it defeats the object of living if we're all a slave to the same ideals, wage, house, treatment and propagana of somebody else. AT LEAST with capitalism you get free speech. Sure the hope is that wouldn't be lost, but give someone overall ruling power "temporarily" and just see how quick these things change. To be hoenst i don't think i could live in a world where all was equal, there would be no challenege to life. No matter what you did or did not do you'd get the same life as everybody else so whats the point? Theres no drive there. Honestley its a monumental flaw which so many are willing to overlook because "everybody being equal" is such a nice thing to say.

The fact is if you have something special in life, no matter who you are, you make something of yourself, or die trying... why castrate people of this? As for your point about Nike and other mutinational corps... you still haven't answered my question. Do you think they'd extort these people if local authorities didn't let them get away with it? The third world has a lot of corruption and that cannot be blamed on capitalism simply because it looks like captilism has created this, when in actuality its us humans. When socialism was hoped to be implimented in russia, it was human flaws that brought it down with a crash. Capitialism is far less of a victim to this, and as such i think its a more robust option.

Marlyin Manson says "Captialism has made it this way, the weak ones are there just for the strong"... i disagree, whole heartadley, capitalism is in todays climate the only real way to support our huge communities, without a world changing event first taking place.
 
Last edited:

sk8bloke22

roll for life
omg u really are missing the whole problem with the multi-national corporations. the whole issue is that both the US government and companies like Nike aernt regulating these factories. the main reason they choose 3rd world countries to set up factories (in 1980s Nike sold all the factories in the USA to set up factories in the EPZs) is cos they can cheat their way into not paying taxes on the exports they make for the country that houses the EPZ. the second, the local authorities say 'times up, now u guys need to pay taxes', nike move to another country and setup factories there. its nothing to do with current problems in the 3rd world. EPZs are totally new issue and 100% the fault of multi-national corporations.

and u obviously didnt read all that i wrote, cos i said that that was Marx's interpretation on how socialism will be implemented. there are lots of other ones. evolutionary socialists believe that socialism can be implemented within capitalism. anarcho-communists hav the same issue that u suggested...that when in power, people just abuse it. they believe that conscious raising and destruction of private property in a revolution (not necessarily violent) is enough to allow a socialist economy to organise itself. also they follow marx's prediction of the movement of capitalism - something that marx was very strong on, and why he is still used by economists today. i cant be arsed to explain it again...u dont think capitalism has been affected by human flaws? the fact that there is an enormous inequality in world economies, the fact that globalisation has prevented poorer countries from boosting their economies. capitalism only benefits the richer countries. a lot of these are human problems and selfishness. in the EU, there was a famous scandel where massive food amount were bought from farmers in some farming crisis to help them economically. these food heaps were stored in the EU, and rather than giving them to a country that needs the food, everything was burned - pure selfishness.

check this site about nike: http://archives.thedaily.washington.edu/2001/020501/O1.AftertheGo.html

" Nike CEO Phil Knight has made endless claims of being unable to stop the globalization of sweatshop labor. But the record shows that Nike was in fact a pioneer in the late 20th century sweatshop revival. Nike was among the first U.S. companies to begin closing factories in the U.S. to seek cheaper labor in countries with loose labor standards protected by repressive governments.

Nike began to shift its production to Southeast Asia to take advantage of cheap labor as early as the 1980s, well ahead of other globalizing corporations. Nike was also the first athletic shoemaker to fully subcontract its production overseas, the better to avoid direct liability for labor abuses. All this time, of course, Nike has spent literally billions on advertising and superstar endorsements while paying poverty wages to its overseas workforce. "

also u say u cant blame this on capitalism...who created capitalism, who created the economy and who create money. i think u will find the answer is humans. capitalism was the outcome of the industrial revolution, happened first in the UK and Germany, and much later USA in the early 20th century moved into a system of mass production.
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
The bible says that to fear god is to respect him (in a manner of speaking). So does that mean if you fear satan more, are you respecting him more?

:D
 

Sukh

Long gone...
Although I haven't had time to read all 26 pages (lol). I don't know if this has already been said but, nothing says the middle eastern religions are 'true'. So God can exist without Noah's Ark :)
 
Sukh said:
Although I haven't had time to read all 26 pages (lol). I don't know if this has already been said but, nothing says the middle eastern religions are 'true'. So God can exist without Noah's Ark :)

nothing says any of the religions are true but god is still as prooveable (ie. not at all as of time of writing)
 
OP
RPGlover12

RPGlover12

New member
sytaylor said:


nothing says any of the religions are true but god is still as prooveable (ie. not at all as of time of writing)
weired ur were the first main athiest the i wanted to convince and now u say that he is proveable even after about 35 or more pages and u never said that god is proveable its really confusin
 

sk8bloke22

roll for life
well ppl say they hav evidence outside religion for god's existance, may scientist who use biological knowledge to explain how. the fact is there is NO CONCRETE PROOF either side. if there was there wouldnt be this debate in the first place.
 
OP
RPGlover12

RPGlover12

New member
sk8bloke22 said:
well ppl say they hav evidence outside religion for god's existance, may scientist who use biological knowledge to explain how. the fact is there is NO CONCRETE PROOF either side. if there was there wouldnt be this debate in the first place.
he's existance is way toooooooooooooooooo hard to prove cause 75% of them are baised on religion like the sites i've gaven still some stuff in quran found to be right like actually all of them quran never missed a thing but am loookin for a way to prove god by science so i will try as hard as i can ,and this debate will never end :D
 
Why Science FAILED to explain God?

"Professing to be wise, they became fools . . .. "
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with God."
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then
asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir."
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Koran says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly.
"Ahh! THE KORAN!" He considers for a moment.
"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him.
You can do it.
Would you help them? "Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"Why not say that?
You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't.
[No answer.]
"He doesn't, does he?
My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him.
How is this God good? Hmmm?
Can you answer that one?"
[No answer]
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?"
He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones.
"Let's start again, young fella." "Is God good?"
"Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?"
"No."
"Where does Satan come from?" The student falters.
"From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?"
The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience.
"I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen."
He turns back to the Muslim. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"
"Yes."
"Who created evil?
[No answer]
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness?
All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? "
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"Who created them? "
[No answer]
The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM?
TELL ME, PLEASE!
"The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face.
In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"
[No answer]
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging
panther.
The class is mesmerized.
"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?"
The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world.
"All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"
[No answer]
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?"
Pause.
"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"
[No answer]
"Do you believe in God, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."
The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you? "
"No, sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your God?"
"No, sir. I have not."
"Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"
[No answer]
"Answer me, please."
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"
"No, sir."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"...yes..."
"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling.
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Where is your God now?"
[The student doesn't answer]
"Sit down, please."
The Muslim sits... Defeated.
Another Muslim raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"
The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard!
Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."
The Muslim looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir.
Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"Is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't."
The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.
The second Muslim continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"
"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness?
What are you getting at...?"
"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes..."
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you... give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""
"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"
The class is all ears.
"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Muslim explains.
"That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it.
"Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"
"Of course there is, now look..."
"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Muslim pauses.
"Isn't evil the absence of good?"
The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.
The Muslim continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Muslim replies.
"Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week!
Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"
"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion.
Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.
"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"
"I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin.
"Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena.
Science too is a premise which is flawed..." SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?"
the professor splutters.
The class is in uproar.
The Muslim remains standing until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.
The Muslim looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?"
The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?"
No one appears to have done so. The Muslim shakes his head sadly.
"It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."
The class is in chaos.
The Muslim sits... Because that is what a chair is for.




Credits go to :
http://www.geocities.com/window2islam/indexframe.html
 
Last edited:

Sukh

Long gone...
Erm, that still says nothing to justify the existance of Satan? What has the existance of Satan got to do with the absence of Good (hence Evil?). I presume Satan is an entity of some sort, so how can it be the absence of something else?
 
hmm...
I don't think I mentioned Satan that way , I'm proving the existance of God
and yes , we name the absence of good (evil) but we don't name it Satan , as Satan isn't the only (evil) in this world
 

DuDe

Emu64 Staff
I could have sworn I`ver read the same thing on that very board, 10 months ago, only muslims were exchanged with catholics.
 
You don't have a proof that god doesn't exist and I HAVE LOTS OF PROOFS!
Who created this universe ?
you may say , someone created it but no proof it's God!
but..
let's forget about God for now

the one who can create that universe is obviously someone VERY POWERFULL (can you deny?)

ok , now that he created that universe , shouldn't we worship him ?
Perfection is assumed to that one who created that universe and created everything else inculding us!!
so we should worship him for all what he did for us!

now look this up in a dictionary :
someone whom we should worship

you will find it to be (GOD)
so we shouldn't worship someone unknown (yes I'm with you here) but we should worship the one (whom we don't know who is specifically) who did LOTS of great things for us , who created all of that universe and the one who gave us life and will take it at some point .
after all of that , we should worship him and give him the word 'God' implying that he can do EVERYTHING (he can make the sun rises from the east , isn't that enough , can ANYONE do such a thing?)
then we don't worship god because he is god , but because he can do (and already did) everything , we worship this one who created us regadless of his name
 
Last edited:

DuDe

Emu64 Staff
Oh yes, I`ve been enlightened! W00t! I`m gonna be a rabbi now, and worship god all day! I`m gonna stop eating non kosher food!
NOT.
 
stop this non-sense now.
you claim that you -you who live in the so called 'israel'- are Israel people , but you aren't.
Jews believe that they are exiled as a punishment but aftet all that , you are still trying to setup Israel , while Jewish prohibites Israel People from setting up a country of their own

Even Qur'an states that in 'Sorat Bani Israel (Al-Israa)'

[4] And We gave (clear) warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

[5] When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare. They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

[6] Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

7] If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.

[8] It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins) We shall revert (to Our punishments): and We have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).

and yeah , God gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power, but unfortunately you are still doing sins and God will punish you again and again until you stop that.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top