Interesting debate on existance of god, worth a read 2
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sytaylor
Sy
2fast4u said:
damn skippy... i dont think its us thats afraid, i think its you triforce... youre afriad that theres nothing there, so you believe there is, if their wasnt by your own admission youd be eligiable for insanity, just because you rely on your belief doesnt make them infalible!:sleepy: everyone could live without faith but very few religious people want to... i mean which would you rather believe? everything is well even when you die, in fact more so... or would you choose to accept that you dont know and its possible there is nothing after death
i certainly know which sounds more attractive, and as such which has a LOT of people believing in it...
let my ask you honestly, can you see how much emotion you invest in your beliefs? how much hope you pour into the fact that no matter what there is some all powerful parent figure willing to make everything right if you just believe? sure those are nice ideals but the fact remains that nobody on earth can ever proove the existance of god beyond the phenomenon of organised religion, which in itself doesnt proove a damn thing! well, besides the fact that humans dont want to die, and that we all search for that parent figure who looks after us...
there are other things to take comfort in within this short life, i suggest looking for them, fulfilment can come from every day activities, and you dont have to associate that with god! for some reason humans just do:!!!:
my life is great, yeah its not perfect, but im alive:inlove:
Tri-Force
Philosopher Warrior
my beliefs are my own. the one thing that i am aboslutely sure of is that i have no idea what is coming after death. well that's not the only thing. i have no doubt in my mind that God exsists. and i realize sy that there are things besides God in the world. but i believe first that nothing is possiable without him. now you can believe that or not. and that is totally up to you. i wont force my religion on anyone despite what the IDIOT 2slow4u will say. (can you tell I'm getting really upset about this) i think that you guys might have a twisted view of what religion is to people and want to peg everyone as being insane for having faith in the unseen. but what is wrong with me believing that there is a God. answer that. is there REALY REALY something wrong with me living my life like this. with setting rules for myself. with expressing and defending my oppion. my beliefs arent hurting anyone. you this thread has turned into "BASH THE RELIGIOUS" and the 2FAST4U LAST WORD HOUR. and another thing. My belief in God doesn't DEFINE who I am. it's one aspect of who I am. I dont meet people and say Hey im a Christian Black Man Actor. NO. I say my name. If God comes up i express my views and beliefs in a KIND and CIVILIZED manner and if someone doesn't share my views we talk about something else but i dont call them names for believing something i dont and i dont say that thieir life is POINTLESS.
2fast4u
New member
sorry to disappoint u but i wont say anything in that direction. according to ur word choice i can only tell that u are running out of reasons.
in one word: nothing.
again: no one said ur life is pointless. read again and see i wrote that IN MY OPINION believing in god is pointless. because there is no reason to do so.
however, i dont even dare to tell other ppl they shouldnt or they should.
please stop twisting my opinion around. all i said was in short that i dont believe there is a god, because there is no point. and to quote myself
i answered u. now answer me: why should one believe?
sk8bloke22
roll for life
this is one reason why i dont believe that a god exists....huge flaws in religious doctrines. for instance, the veiw stressed, particularly in the bible, that the world was created in 7 days, in which animals were created in one great wallop, and humans were created another day in one great wallop. well that seems to hold a serious flaw, considering it rules out the possibility that humans evolved from animals. one only needs to look at the fact that evolution DOESNT violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics to understand that evolution is a working process. hence, it becomes seemingly unlikely that man was CREATED from EARTH as the story of adam and eve suggests. the earth is an open system, and therefore is happily influenced by outside factors. the sun's energy was a likely factor involved in creating life on earth. science has begun to slowly accept this. yet theres no evidence of a divine presence or something totally supernatural placing things as he/she/it pleases around the earth.
maybe one flaw means there are many flaws. maybe god doesnt exist, who knows. us humans certainly no shit, otherwise this would be an easy question to answer.
maybe one flaw means there are many flaws. maybe god doesnt exist, who knows. us humans certainly no shit, otherwise this would be an easy question to answer.
Tri-Force
Philosopher Warrior
first of all i never talked down to you. second i missed the quesiton. but now that i have seen your trick question i will not answer. if i say becasue it's true you will say prove it and start this whole thing all over again and if i say to give someone hope you will say that it is pointless to believe in a greater being for hope. it's not as simple as should and shouldn't believe. all i can say is that if you've seen what i've seen then yah, you should believe you're a fool if you dont.
2fast4u
New member
how intresting, i managed to ask u a trick question w/o being aware of it. :sleepy: anyway, it seems to me u are seeking for excuses and talk around the issue again. i could possibly understand that u dont want anyone to bring up the smallest doubt against ur beliefs coz it makes u uncomfortable, u just dont admit it.
im a f00l and proud of it.
im a f00l and proud of it.
Tri-Force
Philosopher Warrior
I knew you were gonna say something about the fool part but that just means you didn't read carefully. what i said was anyone who has seen what i have seen and learned what i have learned would be a fool to not believe. that was my answer to your question. im not dancing around and i have no doubt in my mind that I am right and you are wrong. just like you have no doubt that i am mislead and you are right in your disbelief. it's a standstill get over it. I feel no discomfort because i know in my heart that what i believe is true and that is all that matters. i am not swayed by non-believers (now i know you'll take that to offence but you are a non-believer weather you like it or not) the only people who have an infulence on my beliefs are others that believe and have different interpritions of what the word means to them. then i study and come up with what it means to me. it's not me who is uncomfertable with the thought that there is no God because that thought is null and void in my mind as soon as it is brought up. i think its you who is worried that there IS a God and that everything that you have done that has gone against him will come back to you in the end. so ill just let you have the last word after this (which i know you cant live without) and end it.
zorbid
New member
Here's a little thing I'd like to point out. I haven't read the whole thread, so it might have already been said.
I'm agnostic.
And I've something to submit to the "hard" non believers. I hope I'll make it clear, because I'm not very good in English. I will sometimes write things twice in differrnt ways to be sure that it is understandable.
There is one thing that science can't explain, and most probably will never explain.
It is the simple fact that you (the single person that reads this) are conscious.
Science can explain how your body works, and can tell that (and a little how) organised and cahotic processes make your brain work.
But it will never explain how you are concious. You could imagine a mecanical world with "mecanical" people, living thanks to the processes described above. You could imagine this world with a spirit that's not yours living in your body, and you would'nt even know that the world exists, since you wouldn't be.
But you are there, your mind in/and your body, reading this. As I am writing... And I can't understand how and why I AM right here, right now.
The reason why I think it will never be understood is because in this case, the observer and the "observed" is the same person. Nobody else than you can feel nor understand your soul and spirit.
What follows is beliefs, and are probably more "disputable"
Another thig I believe is that human is limited. There's a very high probability that there are things in the universe that we can't percieive with our senses(or with the machines we can build), nor understand with our brain(or process with computers), nor even imagine, because they are too far from what we know.
And, you know, scientific findings are considered as true, untill they are proved wrong.
I don't say that science is bad (As a medecine student, scientific spirit and science as a whole are very important things), I say it's still very limited. It is not because a bright scientist tells you that there is no god that it's true. He's just too self comfident. He forgets that there are by far more things he doesn't know than things that he knows.
That were my 2 pence.:satisfied
I'm agnostic.
And I've something to submit to the "hard" non believers. I hope I'll make it clear, because I'm not very good in English. I will sometimes write things twice in differrnt ways to be sure that it is understandable.
There is one thing that science can't explain, and most probably will never explain.
It is the simple fact that you (the single person that reads this) are conscious.
Science can explain how your body works, and can tell that (and a little how) organised and cahotic processes make your brain work.
But it will never explain how you are concious. You could imagine a mecanical world with "mecanical" people, living thanks to the processes described above. You could imagine this world with a spirit that's not yours living in your body, and you would'nt even know that the world exists, since you wouldn't be.
But you are there, your mind in/and your body, reading this. As I am writing... And I can't understand how and why I AM right here, right now.
The reason why I think it will never be understood is because in this case, the observer and the "observed" is the same person. Nobody else than you can feel nor understand your soul and spirit.
What follows is beliefs, and are probably more "disputable"
Another thig I believe is that human is limited. There's a very high probability that there are things in the universe that we can't percieive with our senses(or with the machines we can build), nor understand with our brain(or process with computers), nor even imagine, because they are too far from what we know.
And, you know, scientific findings are considered as true, untill they are proved wrong.
I don't say that science is bad (As a medecine student, scientific spirit and science as a whole are very important things), I say it's still very limited. It is not because a bright scientist tells you that there is no god that it's true. He's just too self comfident. He forgets that there are by far more things he doesn't know than things that he knows.
That were my 2 pence.:satisfied
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sk8bloke22
roll for life
zorbid u r pretty much right. science is only science if it is falsifiable. but uve gotta consider the facts and scientific evidence (even though one day it might be proved otherwise ) and decide urself. just to note, its good to see priests revealing the true nature of the church:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1945000/1945848.stm
religion in my mind is total cack. its my opinion. the idea of god is another matter. u can be a secular person and still believe in god.
reading a lot of anarchist stuff altely, in particular Focault and Neitzche (ok these guys arent directly anarchists) theres some very interesting ideas, that maintain a large degree of truth. the fact that morality has been defined by religious doctrines (eg. in the ten commandments) is frightening, considering that religious institutions are so deceitful and corrupt (the church scandal is just a small pinch of evidence of this), its scary that our daily, and supposedly 'natural' instincts are more likely the result of successful socialisation into a society based on propaganda and exploitation, in that the way we act, dress, and even speak is a product of society and not animal instincts. i completely reject the belief that humans are naturally inclined to act in a certain way, just as animals do, as 'human nature' has caused so many problems, its ridiculous. not so long ago it was natural for women to stay at home as housewife's and happily accept male oppression. humans change, the way humans think evolves, so the arguement that suggests humans are naturally inclined to act in a certain way, is void. Even science can be subject to corruption and misinterpretation. look at nazi science, it was bound to the Nazi ideology, and so the results worked in favour of the way that the german ppl were programmed (a result of successful propaganda) to think. even history has been interpreted according to how SOME want it to be, which could mean our entire understanding of how ppl lived, and how ppl used to act, could be completely flawed. Nazism is just an extreme example of what all humans are probably subject to over a period of subtle propganda perpetuated by states and authorities. look at even this msg board, me and rpgglover argued over posts over the accuracy of our religious doctrines (i questioned his understanding of history influenced by the karan, whilst he questioned my understanding of history influenced by the torah)" - the simple fact is 2 different dictations of history, suggests that something is at fault, maybe both doctrines are at fault. history is supposed to be a linear progression, but many different interpretations implies faults in historical interpretation.
focault and neitzche both questioned morality. and even went as far as saying as that morality does not even exist, but it is rather a form of control, which is defined by authorities in power to maintain power, and passify the masses. an entire thinking is certainly a succesful weapon in imposing restrictions, and therefore control. god, in my opinion, is just another 'concept' which implies the need to restrict oneself, and alter one's lifestyle to suit and be acceptable to serve the needs of the required to fulfil the 'concept'.
) and decide urself. just to note, its good to see priests revealing the true nature of the church:http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1945000/1945848.stm
religion in my mind is total cack. its my opinion. the idea of god is another matter. u can be a secular person and still believe in god.
reading a lot of anarchist stuff altely, in particular Focault and Neitzche (ok these guys arent directly anarchists) theres some very interesting ideas, that maintain a large degree of truth. the fact that morality has been defined by religious doctrines (eg. in the ten commandments) is frightening, considering that religious institutions are so deceitful and corrupt (the church scandal is just a small pinch of evidence of this), its scary that our daily, and supposedly 'natural' instincts are more likely the result of successful socialisation into a society based on propaganda and exploitation, in that the way we act, dress, and even speak is a product of society and not animal instincts. i completely reject the belief that humans are naturally inclined to act in a certain way, just as animals do, as 'human nature' has caused so many problems, its ridiculous. not so long ago it was natural for women to stay at home as housewife's and happily accept male oppression. humans change, the way humans think evolves, so the arguement that suggests humans are naturally inclined to act in a certain way, is void. Even science can be subject to corruption and misinterpretation. look at nazi science, it was bound to the Nazi ideology, and so the results worked in favour of the way that the german ppl were programmed (a result of successful propaganda) to think. even history has been interpreted according to how SOME want it to be, which could mean our entire understanding of how ppl lived, and how ppl used to act, could be completely flawed. Nazism is just an extreme example of what all humans are probably subject to over a period of subtle propganda perpetuated by states and authorities. look at even this msg board, me and rpgglover argued over posts over the accuracy of our religious doctrines (i questioned his understanding of history influenced by the karan, whilst he questioned my understanding of history influenced by the torah)" - the simple fact is 2 different dictations of history, suggests that something is at fault, maybe both doctrines are at fault. history is supposed to be a linear progression, but many different interpretations implies faults in historical interpretation.
focault and neitzche both questioned morality. and even went as far as saying as that morality does not even exist, but it is rather a form of control, which is defined by authorities in power to maintain power, and passify the masses. an entire thinking is certainly a succesful weapon in imposing restrictions, and therefore control. god, in my opinion, is just another 'concept' which implies the need to restrict oneself, and alter one's lifestyle to suit and be acceptable to serve the needs of the required to fulfil the 'concept'.
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HostileEagle
King of Krunch
There is no God. Not one. Never was. Sorry.
Religion is the last refuge of a failed human. Just another way of distracting ourselves from who we really are. I don't want to shit on anyone's beliefs, and my opinion is just that, my opinion. But I feel sorry for people who are religious because I think they're fundamentally weak. Using this concept of "God" as a way to motivate themselves to achieve certain goals in life and to conduct their lives in what's considered an acceptable manner. Personally, I can do all of this without an imaginary friend.
Religion is the last refuge of a failed human. Just another way of distracting ourselves from who we really are. I don't want to shit on anyone's beliefs, and my opinion is just that, my opinion. But I feel sorry for people who are religious because I think they're fundamentally weak. Using this concept of "God" as a way to motivate themselves to achieve certain goals in life and to conduct their lives in what's considered an acceptable manner. Personally, I can do all of this without an imaginary friend.
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