Gamecube not worthy, says microsoft.

My five or six cents...

pandamoan said:

the thing that i see as really negative (about consoles) is that alot of kids get into them, and not symmetrically into computers, and hence learn very little from the experience. kids who get into games on computers end up learning a whole lot though.

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Before I begin, I would like to state that your avatar is awesome, pandamoan. Also, upon previewing my reply, I realize that I ramble a lot, and I've said some things that are kind of aggressive. Just remember that it's 4:31am where I'm at, and I haven't slept in about two days.

Consoles are here to stay. For developers, consoles are these wonderful little things that allow you to create your game for a controlled environment. There will be very little deviation between one Nintendo 64 and another Nintendo 64. User number two may have the expansion card. That's it. The reason a lot of people prefer general-purpose computers to consoles is the input methods. A console uses the age-old gamepad. A general-purpose computer uses a keyboard and <b>mouse</b>.

That mouse is a trickly little beast. It has, arguably, destroyed productivity over the years; caused huge, bloated GUIs to appear; and generally caused me much headache - but it has also allowed games to become more involved. First-person shooters have "mouse-look" that is so much better than using a joystick. Real-time strategies allow for easy unit selection by mouse for novices (a good Age of Empires player rarely touches his/her mouse).

That's the big argument that gamers have, but that doesn't seem to be your argument.

You say that kids using general-purpose computers somehow enhances their learning experience. Let's see - if the computer works properly - a kid inserts the game CD-ROM in his computer, an "autoplay" loader appears and offers to start the game, the kid clicks "Play Now" (or whatever), and the game loads. How is this different from an Xbox?

The only reason you claim that kids learn more by using games on general-purpose computers is because most computer software <i>sucks</i>. Microsoft Windows is one of the worst hacks of an operating system I've ever seen. Have you looked at its APIs? They're atrocious! GNU/Linux is better, but it is no panacia. There are hundreds (yes, boys and girls, hundreds) of other operating systems out there, but I dare say that all of them <i>suck</i>. I just use the least sucky one and deal with it.

For an operating system that hopefully won't suck, go <a href="http://www.tunes.org/">here</a> [tunes.org]. It's a computer scientist's wet dream come true.

But I digress... the point is that because troubleshooting, driver updating, etc. comes into the mix a child <b>may</b> learn something about the general-purpose computer by trying to play games. That all hinges on if it doesn't <i>suck</i>.

That's definitely possible Alpha, but I'm not sure that would happen. I think that consoles will start becoming more like computers, but they will still exist seperate just because they're so simple. "Power on, open CD tray/lid, insert game, close tray/lid, press start, etc.) I think they'll exist because you aren't worrying about installing games and running out of HD space. You don't have to worry if your box is powerful enough to run it. But you never know. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

joel_029 said:

That's definitely possible Alpha, but I'm not sure that would happen. I think that consoles will start becoming more like computers, but they will still exist seperate just because they're so simple. "Power on, open CD tray/lid, insert game, close tray/lid, press start, etc.) I think they'll exist because you aren't worrying about installing games and running out of HD space. You don't have to worry if your box is powerful enough to run it. But you never know. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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wow a thread with dozens of intersting ideas and posts. i'd have to say alpha is probably right, and that some version of linux will run it. This will take years, though, and by that time lord only knows what radical technologies will have changed the way we use computers and the way they look.

and lord knows some other radical tech could rapidly alter human history in such a way that this kind of talk / etc is almost irrelevant.

in other news... you guys hear about the halflife 2 source code leak?

that's pretty crazy!!!

jamie

pandamoan said:

seriously though, i think that consoles are an outmoded outdated relic, that have only continued to exist like they do because there are huge gains to be made monetarily by the corporations who make games by keeping them on consoles.

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Bahaha... ok... name two PC games that had visuals comparable to the first GCN and Xbox games when they launched.

Consoles are a closed platform very open to severe optimisation which PC's rarely see, they generally start up much faster than your average PC, and they don't have driver problems and a million obscure settings like most big PC games. They can also plug into really big TV's right out of the box.

piracy is an issue on every platform btw, so i don't think that's especially relevant.

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I'd like you to try to apply that statement to GameCube.

computers are just superior hardware, and their multiple uses make their prices and value for those prices so much higher than any console.

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Superiour hardware? You certain?

Because my GameCube with a CPU at half the clock speed and a GPU without pixel shaders and with only one TMU per pipeline puts out comparable and many times BETTER visuals than an Xbox, which basically uses PC components. And that's at $99 for the hardware now, compared to $179.

and finally:
a good computer game ALWAYS kicks all crap out of a good console game.

when doom came out, people were still playing side scrolling platformers!

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Bull SHIT computer games always kick the crap out of consoles!

Most of the most enjoyable games are on consoles. For this point, fuck use of hardware, fuck strength of hardware... DOOM is a notable exception... but...

Now back to hardware: Consoles have one disadvantage compared to PC's - they stick around with the same configuration for about five years at a time. On launch, they always invariably brutalise PC games of the day, and two years or so later PC's finally catch up. That gives three years for PC's to keep improving while the next round of consoles gets ready for action.

Consider DOOM: The SNES and 32x ports were passable enough on relatively pathetic hardware, while the PS1 port was identical to the PC version and the N64 original game based on DOOM -slapped the shit- out of the PC version. We shall not talk about the sloppy Saturn port. :\ Oh, and let's not forget the incredibly great JAGUAR port. =)

the thing that i see as really negative (about consoles) is that alot of kids get into them, and not symmetrically into computers, and hence learn very little from the experience. kids who get into games on computers end up learning a whole lot though.

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Heh, yeah, they learn a lot. "WHY THE FUCK ARE THE GRAPHICS ALL MESSED UP!? Why are those walls black, and those are stone? Why does everything look so blurry (textures)? Why is the game so darn jerky?"

Why can't computers do that?

joel_029 said:

I think that consoles will start becoming more like computers, but they will still exist seperate just because they're so simple.

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And so I ask... why are computers not simple?

How many of you are old enough to remember the "Multimedia PC Specification"? When you purchased a computer or hardware upgrade there was a logo that showed the generation of "Multimedia PC" (MPC) to which that hardware was developed. For instance, a 2X CD-ROM drive with a 200ms seek time would fit into the second generation MPC standard - MPC-2. A 4 MB STB video card that was VESA 3.0 compatible would fit into the third generation MPC standard - MPC-3.

A lot of people, myself included, wish that such a "generational" standard still existed for PC hardware. We have the various industry standards bodies that have developed great tools such as OpenGL, VESA, OpenAL, STL, and others, but no one wants to put it all together and say, "If your computer can interoperate with these standards and run these test suites between these speeds then your system qualifies as a fifth generation Multimedia PC - MPC-5."

Microsoft started pushing for this again about one year ago, but their efforts seem to have come to an end. Perhaps another company or standards body could come forward with a new "Multimedia PC Specification" - OMG, IEEE, Open Group, MPEG, VESA, etc.

We could then buy computer software like we buy console games. You would walk into a store and browse the software section seeing system requirements listed only as "MPC-6 compliant hardware required." It's just like seeing "Designed for Nintendo GameCube" on the box. You know what hardware you have not by memorizing strange names and model numbers and performance reviews but by knowing that all of it is the equivalent of an MPC-6 system. Many gamers don't care what hardware is in their Nintendo GameCube, either. We just know that when it's all put together it will run games that say "Designed for Nintendo GameCube" on the box.

You purchase the game, insert the DVD-ROM into your computer, and the game loads and plays. It becomes that simple.

So I ask again: Why can't computers be this simple?

tag...

u make some valid points, but you sold your soul to the devil (or more importantly your believability) when you said the snes version of doom was passable.

i guess it was passable, as something COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the PC version. or maybe it was passable as A VERY BAD JOKE.

either way, the snes version of doom was horrid. please let's just try to forget it and move on. LOL

and there are great console games, i didn't mean to imply there aren't. I just see the MOST innovation on computer (RTS, FPS, online gaming, MMORPG). the physics have been better for ages.

have you played truck dismount yet? that is a great validation of the power of innovation on pc. simply put: that game rules, and is way funner than any of the GC games i've tried (so far, i've only tried about 7).

optimization is valid. you win. of course i never said otherwise, but still, you win. just the fact the consoles aren't saddled with the 800 lb gorilla of windows gives them a huge performance boost. however with the continuing improvements in linux (and microsofts perennial game of catch up with it and other OSes) i see this fading rapidly in the near future.

i definitely like the idea of standards based computing that dcook brought up, but let's face it: MS will never let that happen because opengl is the only true real 3d standard, and they are scared to death of it, and trying (successfully i might add) to blackmail hundreds of game companies into signing their souls over to the dx9 devil.

expect those game companies to loose out to more innovative ballsy companies that are not afraid to use opengl, and use it more creatively. i'm excited as anyone about doom 3 and halflife 2, but the mere fact that those games are sequels limits their appeal in some way. for instance: when gta 3 came out I signed off of fps altogether for a while to run over old ladies and steal drugs from colombians. (and that games gfx were VERY poorly implemented on pc, hardly any optimization done AT ALL it seemed!!)

anyway, i'm not really debating at this point, merely making some observations that on slashdot might get me a few pity "insightful" mods, and maybe a few "flamebait" ones as well.... LOL

i definitely have enjoyed everybody's input and thoughts, agreed or no, they are very interesting.

jamie

I prefer console games for the simple reason.
When was the last time you sat around with friends and played a 4 player game on the PC with 4 control sticks?
Exactly. There's no such thing as a simultaneous multiplayer game on the PC. Well, there's very vey few.
You can't beat a good 4 player game of PES2 while you're drunk. (Yes with a bloody multitap) (stupid Sony)
So, yes, if you're a loner and the only way you can play multiplayer games is online, then so be it.
I'm not. And I will continue to play console games until the day I/they die.

AlphaWolf said:

Yeah, about 7 years after the original doom for PC came out, by which time PCs were already ahead of N64 hardware with the pioneering of 3d cards on the market (in fact, it wasn't much later that PCs were emulating the n64 at full speed)

Lets talk about a more recent game....quake anybody? The N64 version of quake sucked cock&balls compared to quake for PC, and the PC version even came out before the n64 was ever made!

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yeah, there's no doubt about the above.....

and actually... multiplayer games with controllers (for my n00b friends) is THE MAIN reason i am so into emulation.... LOL But computers are getting better this way. actually my very favorite multiplayer game (only 2 at a time though ) NFS 3 hot pursuit (the old one, not the new one), is a PC title. and for it's age, the gfx are superb. I look forward to the day when 4-5 ghz PCs can emulate multiple pcs, on the same screen. This will make games like quake and etc. VERY fun on a projection TV. (nothing like each player having their very own 4' x 3' screen on a huge empty white wall!)

jamie

In Defense of Computer Gaming

KoЯn said:

When was the last time you sat around with friends and played a 4 player game on the PC with 4 control sticks?

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When was the last time you played a 16 player team-based game with each team in a different room (so communications are isolated) on a console system?

Also, a very good example of a computer game that allows four-player gaming on the same machine with four different gamepads is Get Medieval. It's a Gauntlet clone.

pandamoan said:

I look forward to the day when 4-5 ghz PCs can emulate multiple pcs, on the same screen. This will make games like quake and etc. VERY fun on a projection TV.

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There's nothing like plugging ones own project. With my <a href="http://sourceforge.net/projects/unisef/">Universal System Emulation Framework</a> [sourceforge.net] this becomes possible at least in software. Since it intends to allow linking of input and output modules, you could create a "virtual" TCP/IP network between four different instances of a PC emulator. You could then link the video output modules into a two-screen by two-screen array that could be projected onto your wall.

And just for a quick status update, the requirements and design documents are almost finished. I'll probably begin writing pre-alpha code sometime in early November.

dcook32p said:

When was the last time you played a 16 player team-based game with each team in a different room (so communications are isolated) on a console system?

Also, a very good example of a computer game that allows four-player gaming on the same machine with four different gamepads is Get Medieval. It's a Gauntlet clone.

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Right... first off, you're probably talking about LAN parties. Yes, you're correct, I've never been to one, probably for the following reasons.

A)I don't suffer chronic acne
B)I don't know 15 other people that do
C)I don't wear thick glasses
D)I don't cry when I don't get an A at school
E)I don't live in a basement
F)I don't smell of BO

Second point:
You say Gauntlet clone. Last time I checked, Gauntlet was available on a variety of consoles.

Consoles blow balls compared to the PC

KoЯn said:

A)I don't suffer chronic acne
B)I don't know 15 other people that do
C)I don't wear thick glasses
D)I don't cry when I don't get an A at school
E)I don't live in a basement
F)I don't smell of BO

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this is all pretty cheap cliché ya know. who fed this information to you?

I know myself quite well.

Hmm...

KoЯn said:

Right... first off, you're probably talking about LAN parties. Yes, you're correct, I've never been to one, probably for the following reasons.

A)I don't suffer chronic acne
B)I don't know 15 other people that do
C)I don't wear thick glasses
D)I don't cry when I don't get an A at school
E)I don't live in a basement
F)I don't smell of BO

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I'm not exactly sure what any of these things have to do with attending LAN parties, and I don't feel the need to explain myself.

Also, I'm very aware that Gauntlet clones and sequels are made for all of the newer console systems. I was merely pointing out a <b>PC</b> game that supports four simultaneous players on the same computer using four separate gamepads since you weren't aware of any that existed.

I do not dislike console gaming systems. I own a Nintendo GameCube. I play Mario Golf, Ikaruga, Super Smash Bros. Melee, and Star Wars: Jedi Outcast frequently with my friends. I was merely pointing out that a conventional computer systems offers the <i>same</i> level of social interactivity that a console system offers. The same false stereotypes could be applied to a bunch of people getting together to play a four-player game on a console system.

I find your remarks very aggressive. My original point was merely informational and was not intended to insult you. Just because I write with some sense of grammar and don't use these childish smilies in every post I make does <u><b><i>not</i></b></u> mean that I'm being rude.

in this day in age, I would have to agree that PC is better than Consoles, but back in the late 80's and early 90's Id disagree.

also to think of it, werent the console gaming programs designed from PC and ported to the console and its graphics anyway

Christ what a big bunch of girls.