Slackers

[AlphaWolf]

sources please?

Ask me about that tommorow (no time to dig through the news archives ATM.)

btw, no answer for N. Korea? Nothing about how the US is appeasing them when they are obviously going for nuclear related tech, vamp?

Ok so what do you think we should we do about north korea? Keep in mind that invasion is out of the question since it very well could be another Vietnam, as most of the north koreans hate america completely and would not allow it (iraq is a completely different story, the opportunity was there and the citizens were ready to get rid of saddam.) Not only that, but attacking them would serve no benefit for anybody. North korea wouldn't use nukes though. Why? Because none of their neighbors want it, and doing so would get them thrashed and they know it.

since you seem so profound, would you kindly fucking tell me the last time you heard about saddam committing mass murders?

Ah, I suppose all of the skeletons in those mass graves were just freak rock formations then?

And vampireuk, what the helll is going on here? did I just travel into an alternate parallel universe or something? You're usually the one who is the most against me

 

[pj64er]

Ask me about that tommorow (no time to dig through the news archives ATM.)

sure

Ok so what do you think we should we do about north korea? Keep in mind that invasion is out of the question since it very well could be another Vietnam, as most of the north koreans hate america completely and would not allow it (iraq is a completely different story, the opportunity was there and the citizens were ready to get rid of saddam.) Not only that, but attacking them would serve no benefit for anybody. North korea wouldn't use nukes though. Why? Because none of their neighbors want it, and doing so would get them thrashed and they know it.

Simple. Search and destroy any traces of nuclear tech (oh, and do take other WMDs too). As well, although I cant say they have people being oppressed over there, its not like their government hasnt fucked them over already

And I wouldnt be so sure that North Korea would not use their nukes. They are also going for ICBM's. Add an unstable leader, and you dont need to be selling nukes to be a danger to the world.

And vampireuk, what the helll is going on here? did I just travel into an alternate parallel universe or something? You're usually the one who is the most against me

yea, weird..

 

[vampireuk]

I'll reply soon but at the moment im doing a complete system reinstall

 

[vampireuk]

Alpha my opinions have changed quite a bit lately

would you kindly fucking tell me the last time you heard about saddam committing mass murders?

You mean aside from the daily torture and murder of his own citizens, his oprresion of the kurds. The time he gassed Kurds? Oh wait thats ok because it happened back in the 80's right? I mean he must really be a nice guy now since that was so long ago

he has been sitting on his ass ever since he finished up all his SCUD rockets on Israel

Actually after his scud rockets he had artillery shells capable of deploying chemical weapons these were dated to be just before the gulf war and as such was not the smoking gun the bush administration required, however its quite adequete for proving you know jackshit about your history again

i would HARDLY call what bush did as liberation

Obviously you have no idea what liberation is then, they were living under a maniac who tortured and killed his own people for his own amusement, now they are not.

the second saddam's regime fell apart iraq went out. people were looting each other

They were because they got their first taste of freedom and decided to act like savages, are you proposing law and order under the guise of torture and murder is ok as long as the population is quelled?

did you know that a poll showed most iraqis would have rather had saddam

Well they are extremely uneducated, and thats not a insult thats simply the truth. They have been living under lies and manipulation their whole lives and genuinely think Saddam was a good leader in some cases.

at least there was a system of order

So again you agree with brutal opression as a system of law and order?

thousands of valuable US soldiers are being killed for no reason

Thousands? I think once again you prove how little you know about this merely by claiming thousands of troops have been killed

i'm sure as hell that with their military, the us could have snuck in and pulled saddam right out

Well you see Iraq had this little thing called the military, its what they use to "protect" or in Saddams case opress his people. We couldn't have simply gone in and pulled him out, you are watching too many delta force movies. And if we did just remove saddam and left, then what? Leave the Iraqis with no hope? I'm sorry I thought you were a humanitarian. US and UK troops along with civilian contractors are rebuilding Iraq along with the help of Iraqi civilian contractors. They are trying to rebuild the country to make it a better place for the Iraqi people and install a form of government that will not turn into another dictatorship. So you believe we should have removed Saddam and installed another dictator in his place....

and with the entire world saying NO

I went over this too, the entire world did not say no, we have broad international support with troops coming from many countries to help. Also countries like France and Russia, why did they say no? Possibly because they had supplied Saddam with weapons and they wanted that to remain hidden.

YOU HAVE NO REASON TO STICK YOUR NOSE IN THERE JUST LIKE YOU DID IN VIETNAM

So we have no right to go into a country and free its people from a dictatorship that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, is this that humanitarian in you again?

bush walked right in and made himself look like a total ass

I don't paticulary like Bush but at least he had the guts to do something about terrorism and countries run by bad guys, unlike people like you who like to hide and cower from threats.

america is always trying to be the hero, thwarting the opressors, just mind your own business please

If the UK and US lived by your cowardly reasoning France would be controlled by Germany, we have every right to take down evil regimes and I support our troops fully when they go to do this. In fact I will be one of them in the future.

this is slowly becoming a flame war

Sorry but you are the only one doing any flaming with your fucking this and fucking that, the rest of us are actually debating here, care to join us?

 

[AlphaWolf]

sure

And we shall...a basic google search yielded this which outlines it quite well, and there were more a while back that I can't seem to find again.

Also, I remember seeing a poll (not once, but from two different news sources) which said that 85% of iraq citizens support the US occupation there. For some reason I can't find it anymore though.

/me continues searching.

 

[pj64er]

Pretty good read. Tell me if Im wrong, but it seems to say that Iraq has ties to terrorist groups in the PAST. Not only that, the terrorist groups that they HAD support have nothing to do with the US. Not only that, evidence of the government of Iraq currently (as in, just before Operation Iraqi Freedom) supporting terrorism is poor.

 

[sheik124]

So we have no right to go into a country and free its people from a dictatorship that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, is this that humanitarian in you again?

i can see your one of the many spoonfed the american onesided media. the numbers were completely exaggerated, and i know some people may not accept this, but it was america that gave the OK for saddam to invade kuwait, for saddam to kill his own people. there were a couple thousand civillian casualties caused by no one other than the american military during this "operation iraqi liberation" do you know what that stands for sire? OIL. i see no purpose argueing with someone who doesn't want to accept facts. and the recent flag change just shows how much the iraqi people have been humiliated. do you happen to watch any non-american media? possibly any IRAQI media. it seems that most people today just want to attack muslims for 9/11. 9/11 was an attrocity that cannot be justified, but you cannot blame ALL muslims for it. i read up on islamic law and killing another human being who is not engaged in a state of war with you, is a crime punishable by hellfire, and it nullifies one's Islam. killing innocent civilians for "revenge" (like bin laden did, or whatever the hell that madman wants to call it) or killing them during "liberation" (like bush is) is complete and utter stupidity. the operation in afghanistan may possibly be called liberation, because they were currently in a state of oppression, and they were currently being persecuted. but in the last 15 years, the only side doing any attacking in iraq has been america. saddam is a lost cause, he can't persecute his people any more. those "skeletons" are actually from his attack on Iran, and if Iran was america's ally, then their actions would be justifiable. and america's invasion of germany WAS a good thing. hitler wasn't persecuting his people, he was killing EVERYBODY, and he was attacking america's allies, and since they are allies, america might as well go and defend them, that i can accept.

 

[vampireuk]

i can see your one of the many spoonfed the american onesided media. the numbers were completely exaggerated

How have I been "spoon fed" you are the one claiming that thousands of troops have died when they have not, address your own lies before you make some silly little claim against me.

it was america that gave the OK for saddam to invade kuwait

Actually Saddam invaded on his own, do you remember how the US went in and kicked Iraq out?

there were a couple thousand civillian casualties caused by no one other than the american military during this "operation iraqi liberation"

They are unfortunately casualties of war, the US did not deliberately kill them, do not put our countries on the same level as Saddam, you will appear a even bigger fool than you do now.

do you know what that stands for sire? OIL. i see no purpose argueing with someone who doesn't want to accept facts.

It's quite funny that you still think this is over oil, it quite clearly shows that you are the one been spoon fed as you are listening to all these little conspiracy theorists that believe the war is about oil. I covered your comment about oil earlier and demolished it. You see no sense in arguiing with me because you cannot accept that you are wrong. You look even more foolish when you use your uneducated biased pride in your opinions spoon fed to you by anti war liberals and refuse to accept what you are saying is wrong. Get your own damn opinions for once, get your brain in gear and you will see this has nothing to do with oil.

and the recent flag change just shows how much the iraqi people have been humiliated

You mean the flag which has blue in it? And shock horror israel have blue in their flag too, oooh what a evil conspiracy, if you think the flag is designed to humiliate them you are even more foolish than I first thought.

do you happen to watch any non-american media?

I don't watch American media, I watch the BBC, and the BBC were criticised for been biased against America and well known for leaning to the left, care to try again?

possibly any IRAQI media

You mean Al Jazeeeeeera, the tv group that claims a boatful of navy seals was killed by the taleban one time....and it never happened. Or perhaps Iraqi media of how the Americans were been slaughtered at the gates of baghdad

it seems that most people today just want to attack muslims for 9/11

Once again you are a complete fool for thinking this is simply about attacking Islam, get that brain of yours in gear son.

but you cannot blame ALL muslims for it

We don't you just claim that we do to suit your own silly opinions.

i read up on islamic law and killing another human being who is not engaged in a state of war with you, is a crime punishable by hellfire

Did you also read about how they are allowed to kill the infidels? Or is that part not suitable for your opinions and you selectively ignored it.

killing innocent civilians for "revenge" (like bin laden did, or whatever the hell that madman wants to call it) or killing them during "liberation" (like bush is) is complete and utter stupidity.

And thinking that we are doing it deliberately is sheer stupidity, but you have proven yourself to be highly anti west and pro terrorist it seems. You think its best to leave dictators in place, you support brutal police tactics to keep the population under control, basically you support anything that is against what the US is doing. You son look like a complete tosser in this thread.

the operation in afghanistan may possibly be called liberation, because they were currently in a state of oppression, and they were currently being persecuted. but in the last 15 years, the only side doing any attacking in iraq has been america

Do you even read what you type? Since Saddam was in power the people of Iraq have been opressed, how can you defend him you small minded little child. You obviously know nothing about this and you are letting your hatred for the US do your talking for you, look I'll paypal you £10 so you can buy a american flag and burn it, if you promise to stop talking out of your arse on here.

saddam is a lost cause, he can't persecute his people any more

Yes because we removed him from power.

those "skeletons" are actually from his attack on Iran, and if Iran was america's ally, then their actions would be justifiable

Oh my fucking god do you even know what you are saying, first of all "skeletons" wtf? They are fucking skeletons of people that were murdered, do you know how mass graves come about? Those will be prisoners that were executed and dumped into a pit, how is launching a chemical attack in contrevention to the geneva convention justifiable in your mind? You are so stupid it is unbelieveable.

As for Vietnam, do you know America actually went to Vietnam because of the paris accords? Read some actual history instead of letting your butt do your talking.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Tell me if Im wrong, but it seems to say that Iraq has ties to terrorist groups in the PAST. Not only that, the terrorist groups that they HAD support have nothing to do with the US.

Well, to quoth the raven:

Some Iraqi militants trained in Taliban-run Afghanistan helped Ansar al-Islam, an Islamist militia based in a lawless part of northeast Iraq. The camps of Ansar fighters, who clashed repeatedly with anti-Saddam Kurds, were bombed in the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom. In February 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell told the U.N. Security Council that Iraq was harboring a terrorist cell led by Abu Musab Zarqawi, a suspected al-Qaeda affiliate and chemical and biological weapons specialist. Powell said al-Zarqawi had both planned the October 2002 assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan and set up a camp in Ansar al-Islam’s territory to train terrorists in the use of chemical weapons. Powell added that senior Iraqi and al-Qaeda leaders had met at least eight times since the early 1990s.

And more stuff:

The Clinton administration sought to contain Saddam with a mixture of sanctions and arms inspections but ultimately concluded that Saddam had to go., Bush administration officials took up the anti-Saddam cause, especially after 9/11. Officials characterized Saddam’s regime as an immediate threat to America—because of its history of attacking its neighbors, using chemical weapons, supporting terrorist groups, defying U.N. Security Council resolutions, and seeking to acquire nuclear weapons. In his first State of the Union address after September 11, President Bush said Iraq belonged to an “axis of evil.”

Shift back to the WMDs:

Has Iraq ever used weapons of mass destruction?
Yes. In the 1980s Iran-Iraq War, Iraqi troops repeatedly used poison gas, including mustard gas and the nerve agent sarin, against Iranian soldiers. Iranian officials also accuse Iraq of dropping mustard-gas bombs on Iranian villages. Human Rights Watch reports that Iraq frequently used nerve agents and mustard gas against Iraqi Kurds living in the country’s north. In March 1988, Saddam’s forces reportedly killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds in the town of Halabja with chemical weapons.

Also, this bit tells me that there is a lot more than meets the eye:

The camps of Ansar fighters, who clashed repeatedly with anti-Saddam Kurds, were bombed in the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

And sheik124, try to use correct formatting and grammar in your posts, its a bit annoying and I am not going to read these big blocks of text that resemble a poorly translated instruction manual.

 

[pj64er]

Well, to quoth the raven:

Ansar al-Islam is "in a lawless part of northern Iraq". The government has no control over them. Their relation to Iraq seems to be limited to Iraq paying them to keep others out. Mercenary-ish if you will.

And more stuff:

This is pretty well known, but this is also in the past. In the end, no WMDs has been found. Also remember, the US also has a history of attacking its neighbours

Shift back to the WMDs:

yea, hes a bastard.

Also, this bit tells me that there is a lot more than meets the eye:

From what I can tell, the Ansar seems to be paid/funded to fight off Iraq's (neighbouring) enemies. Seems reasonable. Are you saying this camp may have had chem/bio weapons (from al-Zarqawi and co.), but we bombed it to kingdom come? If the US did know they had WMD's there, why didnt searches after the bombing turn up traces of them?




btw, Im going to be moving tomorrow. I may not get internet access for a few more days. Have fun with shiek

 

[sheik124]

fuck this, i seem to look like an idiot now and i am but a mere teen, i still think america had no business to do in iraq, and no vampireUK i was not talking about aljazeera.
i don't hate america and i don't want to burn the flag, only an idiot would go out and burn the flag, what good will it do you besides possibly catching on fire yourself?
there IS/WAS NO WMDs, i really don't care what fucking quotes you can pull out, but the UN went in, the UN came out, THERE WAS NONE. and if you watch any TV at all, powell, bush, and rumsfield all look like idiots too because they DIDN'T find any WMDs, and they blamed it on their insider source, "Curveball" or whatever his name was. the entire attack on Iraq was viewed as anti-humanitarian and vampireuk, i'd hardly call your list of 6 countries the whole world, since the UN DID NOT approve of the invasion, and the only people who wanted it were Bush and Blair. you guys can argue amongst yourselves if you wish, i'm out

 

[vampireuk]

You claim that the entire world said no, I prove you wrong and now you try to discredit me?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!1

 

[Davemc]

Saddam must have done a good job, he kept the country in order. Now we can see what cunts he had in the country, and why sometimes he had to do bad things to keep the country from getting out of control.

 

[Remote]

korn you are soo wrong, a lot of iraqi kids have suffered from saddam being in control.. around 1 million, if not more... I don't think there are any winners amongst regular people in Iraq, the who had the oppurtunity left for other contries a long time ago..

 

[pj64er]

Actually, my move went better than expected. So I'm back. Bring it on

 

[AlphaWolf]

Saddam must have done a good job, he kept the country in order. Now we can see what cunts he had in the country, and why sometimes he had to do bad things to keep the country from getting out of control.

Hitler did a good job too, he brought unity to the german people, restored their pride after WWI, and also brought them out of an economic depression. He was very charismatic had amazing leadership skills, probably the best the world has ever seen. Based on how germany was before he took over, you can see why he had to do some bad things to keep all of the impure races from destroying humanity. uke:

 

[pj64er]

Please refrain from Nazi comparisons. The thing about the current situation is No Government vs Bad Government.

 

[vampireuk]

Please refrain from Nazi comparisons. The thing about the current situation is No Government vs Bad Government.

Why should he? It's a good point, even vlad the impaler had a fucking system.

 

[pj64er]

Hitler and the Nazis did a lot of things. Comparisons to them proves nothing. I was hoping you guys have more valid points to make :/

 

[AlphaWolf]

Hitler and the Nazis did a lot of things. Comparisons to them proves nothing. I was hoping you guys have more valid points to make :/

Well, I didn't have to pick hitler, there are a number of people I could have picked, just hitler was the best example. This post was not accusing him or his idea of being a nazi/hitler thing which is what the godwins law is speaking of. It was mainly an analogy with the intent of giving him a bigger realization of what exactly he was saying.

The whole hitler/nazi thing is plenty relavent for discussions that involve history in any fassion though, so I don't fully understand the reasoning for godwins law to exist, other than maybe flame fests that resort to it, e.g. somebody calling somebody else a fascist or a nazi just out of nowhere. (namely I recall a discussion I had a while ago where some guy kept running his mouth about some crap, and I replied with something along the lines of "would you please shut up, nobody likes hearing your bullshit" so then he called me a hitler because he believed that I was trying to use the popular oppinion for the purpose of silencing him, I suppose godwins law would be useful in that case)