NBA Hangtime propably fixed :)

[squall_leonhart]

Frame buffer is where textures and advanced effects special light effects are rendered to the frame... since the n64 does both of these... it has a frame buffer.

 

[cooliscool]

Frame buffer is where textures and advanced effects special light effects are rendered to the frame... since the n64 does both of these... it has a frame buffer.

*kills self*

:doh:

 

[Iconoclast]

*Martin smashes the server to fix the 90 degree bend.
*Retardation barrier dissolves.
*Site works again.

As I remember, Legend just said that Glide64 is the best for most games he have, is not it? Looking at his list I may agree with him

The games has has, not most of them. If you recall further, a good deal of games on his list I discussed with him about why there is a better plugin for most of them. The only games I could not prove had a graphics plugin better than or equal to Glide64 were Jet Force Gemini, Perfect Dark and Zelda. As I told him, there is a bigger list of games that work best in Rice's Video Plugin, yet I still consider both Glide64 and Rice's Video Plugin equally good, not one better than the other.

Exactly. As I said, options are given for end user to choose between speed quality and compatibility, because it's not always possible to get them all. At the same time, the less such options you should care about, the better.

So, at the same time, the fewer options you care about giving the user to control these three areas, the better the plugin?

It's all about quality/compatibility, imo.

The best graphics plugin needs to take responsibility for more than just those, and the criteria I included, in order to become the best. At the very least, don't forget speed. Not everyone has a system convinient enough to have Glide64 running the fastest on it than any other plugin.

Ok, I'll do short likbez here.
1. N64 rendering process is generally the same as on PC - a special chip performs special graphics commands to render polygons onto special area in video memory, which is called frame buffer. Thus, frame buffer is not an abstraction - its a place, where current rendering frame is stored. No one graphic system can work without it. Thus "the N64 does not do frame buffer drawings" is nonsense.
2. Graphics system can allocate several frame buffers. The number depends on actual hardware. For N64 this number is limited only by amount of RAM.
3. As frame buffer is stored in video memory, it can be used as texture in another (or even the same!) frame buffer. It's usually called "frame-buffer effect". Both N64 and PC can do it, but for PC it's generally more complicated.
4. The main difference between rendering on N64 and PC, which causes most problems with emulation is that in N64 CPU and graphic chip share the same memory, thus CPU can directly read/modify frame buffer content, and it often do so. For example, it can read current frame, apply blur to it and write back - thus we have blurred pause screens in Rare games. On PC CPU does not have direct access to video memory. It's possible to read/write from/to video cards frame buffer, but it's slow. But if we want to see that blurred pause screen, we must read data from video card's frame buffer into special place in PC system RAM, which is used to emulate N64 RAM. If we will do it each frame, it will be very slow. There are other problems too.
I hope these explanations will help you to understand my points.

Yes, thank you, I understand now. Except one thing: I know not everyone in here is a geometry scholar or whatever like people like me who waste my time, but...shouldn't it be more like 'polyhedrons' instead of 'polygons'? A polyhedron is a 3-D polygon, but yeah, doesn't really matter I guess.

I should admit that you are very sane opponent. Not all people here can be polite during discussion.

My sanity varies.

A 15 year old kid is calling me a kid? Hehe. Regular user - perhaps, you just don't know who I am.

A kid. Maybe in relativity to me not one on the outside, but mentally a kid.

Then again, of course I don't know who you are. You don't know who I am; none of us here know each other in life that I know of. Why should I take the time to ponder your hidden traits when you presume that it is you who is misperceived and not I? You are judging me by my age and discussion with Gonetz; I am judging you by your trait emissions.

 

[Gonetz]

The games has has, not most of them. If you recall further, a good deal of games on his list I discussed with him about why there is a better plugin for most of them. The only games I could not prove had a graphics plugin better than or equal to Glide64 were Jet Force Gemini, Perfect Dark and Zelda. As I told him, there is a bigger list of games that work best in Rice's Video Plugin, yet I still consider both Glide64 and Rice's Video Plugin equally good, not one better than the other.

I rare use other plugins. I know, that for every video plugin there is a game or feature in a game, which works best with this plugin. At the same time, many people, who are playing with N64 emulators/plugins for a long time and know every issue in every game, consider Glide64 as the most compatible plugin out there. I think, it's not for nothing. List of features, which emulated well by glide64 only is large.

So, at the same time, the fewer options you care about giving the user to control these three areas, the better the plugin?

For end user it's better to have little or no settings to care about. Ideally, it would be nice to have the same settings for all games, but it's not possible.

The best graphics plugin needs to take responsibility for more than just those, and the criteria I included, in order to become the best. At the very least, don't forget speed. Not everyone has a system convinient enough to have Glide64 running the fastest on it than any other plugin.

Glide64 is fastest plugin, when it works on dedicated hardware. Most of games run fullspeed on 500mhz CPU. With wrapper it's on the same level with other plugins, at least I see no major difference.

Yes, thank you, I understand now. Except one thing: I know not everyone in here is a geometry scholar or whatever like people like me who waste my time, but...shouldn't it be more like 'polyhedrons' instead of 'polygons'? A polyhedron is a 3-D polygon, but yeah, doesn't really matter I guess.

When we will have 3D monitors, we will probably talk about polyhedrons. Currently, we all have flat screens, and what we see on them is a projection of 3D scene on 2D plane. That's why we talk about polygons rendering.

 

[squall_leonhart]

actually, i refute the claim that Glide64 is the most compatible as its not true

Jabo's D3D8 1.7 is the most compatible plugin, and it is ever so becoming more compatible.

 

[Legend]

Squall, I have 1.7 and the list of playable games does not match that of Glide64. Gonetz is right about pretty much everything and all of his statements and mine are based on fact. Other statements around here seem to be more assumptions than anything else. If we trully compared the 300 some odd N64 playable games between the plugins, Glide64 would have a larger list.

But of course people here are going to reject this notion and were going to keep on arguing and arguing and arguing. I was hoping this thread would die so we can move on, since no one here is going to change their minds about anything, whether or not they are right.

 

[Iconoclast]

Legend, it's only natural to think you're the right one in an argument you participate in. No one here will change their minds until somebody clears up some points around here , and I don't any of you here for the sides you take. However, if you don't clean up your arrogance, you will hate us for sticking to our own sides, which is rather hypocritical, don't you think?

Squall, I have 1.7 and the list of playable games does not match that of Glide64. Gonetz is right about pretty much everything and all of his statements and mine are based on fact. Other statements around here seem to be more assumptions than anything else. If we trully compared the 300 some odd N64 playable games between the plugins, Glide64 would have a larger list.

Name as many games as you can that are playable on the latest version of Glide64 and not Jabo's Direct3D 1.7, and then maybe we'll get somewhere. Otherwise, there's a reason why the compatibility lists probably do not match.

Also, that next comment? I am putting a lot of thought in my posts here, and that's just really low to accuse them of all being based on assumptions. You don't have an argument against my last two posts; that's fine. Just don't ignore them because they're difficult to counter; that doesn't automatically make them assumptions.

Squall: You could argue for Rice's Video Plugin. There are some games that Rice's Video Plugin makes playable that Jabo's Direct3D 8 1.7 doesn't (HLE or LLE). Vice versa is of course also true.

I rare use other plugins. I know, that for every video plugin there is a game or feature in a game, which works best with this plugin.

Not always true. The resolution in Gauntlet Legends is one of two flaws on Glide64. Rice's Video Plugin fixes both of these flaws. Maybe all the effects in Super Mario 64, Glide64 emulates better than any other plugin, but once you test the more complex games, it gets to the point where other plugins start fighting each other for the place of emulating the game's effects the best overall. A user named BigHead tested a large amount of N64 games here with all decent N64 gfx plugins and emulators here. You may want to quick-scan his notes.

http://bmgcl.emuxhaven.net/n64mgcl/N64ConfigList.htm

At the same time, many people, who are playing with N64 emulators/plugins for a long time and know every issue in every game, consider Glide64 as the most compatible plugin out there. I think, it's not for nothing. List of features, which emulated well by glide64 only is large.

That list I linked above, you might want to check that.

I can guarantee for damn sure that games like World Driver Championship, Stunt Racer 64, hacked versions of ROMs like GameShark Pro and GameBooster64, Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine, Star Wars - Battle for Naboo and Star Wars - Rogue Squadron will boot only on Jabo's D3D8 1.7 (w/ either LLE or HLE mode) OR usually Rice's Video Plugin. For these games, Glide64 won't even boot, no thanks to microcode detection requirements. That's why Glide64 isn't the most compatible: Other plugins fix things that Glide64 can't, and, should you question, I am prepared to justify that.

Glide64 is fastest plugin, when it works on dedicated hardware. Most of games run fullspeed on 500mhz CPU. With wrapper it's on the same level with other plugins, at least I see no major difference.

What about Rice's Daedalus 5.2.0? Try running both plugins on the 1964 emulator (which comes with Rice's Daedalus 5.2.0); see which is faster.

As for comparing it to the other plugins, my system is not ideal for testing Glide64's speed superiority to other plugins. Care to test the File Select screen with this plugin, Squall? w/ Glide64, glN64, Jabo's 1.6?

 

[Legend]

Icono, we're talking about playable games here, not just getting some difficult ones being able to boot. Who cares about those? Those that you listed at the end there are not playable and thus cannot be counted. It's a nice start but they're not valid entries IMO.

What games can 1.7 magically play now that it could'nt before? Pokemon Snap? Which Glide64 has emulated completely for a while. Jabo 1.7 has not increased the number of playable games hardly at all.

And I was'nt saying I was right, I'm just saying that all of us are going to pretty much stick with what we've observed over the years. I have'nt spent as much time with Rice's plugin just like you have'nt spent enough time with Glide64. So we're going in circles here despite all of us making our valid points. Can we just say between Glide64 and Rice's plugin and Jabo's, that alot of N64 games can be played nearly perfectly. There are all great and some are better suited to some people depending on what they're trying to get out of their N64 emulation experience. I'm just glad that over a hundred people have downloaded Glide64 since I put it in my sig. last week, so people can decide for themselves which one is better for them. arty:

 

[Iconoclast]

I already know what you're talking about. Playable games are too hard to count for any decent graphics plugin. I believe I asked you for those of which are so on Glide64 but not on Jabo's Direct3D 8 1.7, and if you refuse to answer my challenge, you stand nowhere in your defence of Glide64.

Glide64 boots Pokemon Snap and gets it going just fine, but only the Jabo's Direct3D 1.6+ plugins will allow Professor Oak to correctly analyze the pictures and not give you like 500 or fewer points per picture.

Many threads were started consisting of complaints regarding the lack of support for many of those games that fail to boot in Glide64. I have seen people bitching about emulator and plugin authors being too lazy to support Battle for Naboo, but other games as well. You can pretend to not care about them, but not the people who know they want them to be emulated. Just because you don't care about them doesn't mean everybody else doesn't. In any case, Glide64 still fails to boot them, and whether or not you care about those games, it still shows that Glide64 isn't the best, because of the plugins that can emulate them.

I wasn't saying you said you were right; I said what's natural of people arguing in a conversation.

Can we just say between Glide64 and Rice's plugin and Jabo's, that alot of N64 games can be played nearly perfectly.

Aside from the order, whatever, just don't say any of those three plugins are the best. They are part of a team, and emulators need a feature to assign them to games in order to boost general game compatibility greatly. It allows the graphics plugin authors to become part of a team.

 

[squall_leonhart]

i don't care, i use Jabo's 1.7 for everything... and seeing as Rice Video isn't compatible with the way 1.7 locks the screen.. i guess its dead.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Locks the screen"?

 

[squall_leonhart]

when a API goes fullscreen, it locks that screen to only its api

1.7 locks the screen differently to 1.6 and this is why you can't alt tab or window mode pj64 after going full screen in 1.7 with Rice Video

keyboard controls don't work either :/

 

[Iconoclast]

So, Rice's Video Plugin is considered dead,

Because 1.7 does things differently than the other emulators?
The way it locks the screen, causing problems on Rice's particularly?

Meh, whatever. I never use fullscreen mode, unless I accidentally choose full screen instead of Configure Graphics Plugin, which pissed me off to no end as I would have to reboot my PC instead of even bother trying to turn it back to windowed, regardless of the gfx plugin. Now it doesn't happen so much anymore ever since 1.7's keyboard shortcut editor feature.

 

[squall_leonhart]

updating Java SE to 6 fixed that for me

but while i was having that issue

Winkey+R >type 'logoff' > hit enter would get me out of PJ64

 

[Legend]

I believe I asked you for those of which are so on Glide64 but not on Jabo's Direct3D 8 1.7, and if you refuse to answer my challenge, you stand nowhere in your defence of Glide64.

A challenge eh...umm, gee, off the top of my head: NBA Hangtime, Clay Fighter 63 1-3, Dr. Mario, Earthworm Jim, GT 64 - Championship Edition, Waialae Country Club - True Golf Classics, Mahjong Hourouki Classic, Brunsiwick Pro Bowling, Mischief Makers, Paper Mario (severe flicker with Jabo, none with Glide64), the Quakes and Resident Evil 2 are at the least a hell of alot more playable with Glide than Jabo 1.7. There's alot more where that came from! Again there's alot of Asain titles that I heard are only working on Glide64 currently but I'm not going to waste more time here investigating that. If you actually look at configuation lists such as Bigheads and the PJ1.7 and Glide64 you'll find plenty of games that can be played with Glide64 but not Jabo's properly. Glide64 simply has a bigger list of compatable games than Jabo 1.7.

But yeah, also, my main emu is PJ1.7 so this thing with Rice's Video makes it hard for me to use seeing as how I only play in fullscreen-I don't need to see anything on my desktop or multitask, I just want to play my game and concentrate on that and not have distracting junk on the screen.

And not ONCE did I ever say that "Glide64 IS the best video plugin", I was very careful about my wording on that topic. But for ME and my games and how I want to play them, Glide64 is the best.:king:

Also, can you tell me why every computer I try, I cannot view anything in your .chm file? Is it not at the same location or something? I'm hoping you have some reference to Glide64 in there, otherwise "shunning" this plugin would make this a less than "optimal" guide for users if you don't mention a great plugin such as this and what it can offer. I at least have plenty of good things to say about Rice's and Jabo's plugins.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, just like there are vice versa games. So it is the best for you, that can be said.

And not ONCE did I ever say that "Glide64 IS the best video plugin", I was very careful about my wording on that topic.

Heh...I noticed.

Also, can you tell me why every computer I try, I cannot view anything in your .chm file? Is it not at the same location or something? I'm hoping you have some reference to Glide64 in there, otherwise "shunning" this plugin would make this a less than "optimal" guide for users if you don't mention a great plugin such as this and what it can offer. I at least have plenty of good things to say about Rice's and Jabo's plugins.

What do you get when you click the link? It should give you a download to a compiled help manual documentation (.chm file) hosted on BigHead's serverspace.

 

[Legend]

I can download it fine but when I select topics, it says it cannot display page.

 

[mudlord]

So, Rice's Video Plugin is considered dead,

Because 1.7 does things differently than the other emulators?

I don't think its dead at all...imho
Someone (or some people) will pick up the source and do something...:whistling

I at least have plenty of good things to say about Rice's and Jabo's plugins.

I can emphathise there, if it doesnt work for you, and you came to that . I must say though, if it does work well for you, then you will have some good things to say about it. Its unfortunate its not though for you

Disclaimer:
*keep in mind this is my own personal opinion, but I can be wrong, as all humans can be at times*

 

[Iconoclast]

I won't give up my goals, mudlord.

I can download it fine but when I select topics, it says it cannot display page.

That is just weird. Shouldn't happen. Not sure what to say. It works fine over here; that's all I can say.

 

[Iconoclast]

Btw, sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to say, I was wrong.

Jabo's Direct3D 6 is not the best graphics plugin for Banjo-Tooie, even with self-rendered textures checked.
glN64, latest version is, with HWFBE checked.

It is AMAZING...how fast it emulates Jiggywiggy's jigsaw challenges, whereas I'm hearing Glide64 requires a massive slowdown to emulate these scenes. I was like, wtf, didn't I test this plugin before?

I guess I must've been testing an older version before, since ngemu hasn't updated to the latest version until late in 2006.

Btw, no screenshots. You may be lazy, but so am I, so don't ask. Use the instant warp cheat.