Interesting debate on existance of god, worth a read

[sytaylor]

well there is no too young in religion
in islam u must pray when ur 10 years old
and read quran as much as u can
well some guys say whats the diff between islam and other religion
the diff
is that allah made the last religion is islam so that everybody will be
and islam is the only religion that god have
and he even said that in quran
"in deen end allah howa all islam"
and this meens
that the only religion that allah have is islam all other wont go to heaven unless a muslim told allah in heaven to make him a muslim and let him in heaven
so allah want us to worship him in the isalmic way
not christian or jewish way
cause they were changed
and made islam not changed
so that people will be in islam but they didn't
so i think allah is up there
and control the whole universe
controls everything

very nice story you have... why should i believe it? because you say so, cos loads of people say so? im just not convinced...

 

[sytaylor]

well if u r made to study something at the age of 10, u r gonna be closed minded, and subject to one belief system. if u r brought up with very little religion, it gives u reason to question religion more.

my parents split when i was 7... previously i was taught quite definitely christian beliefs... but i never really knew why people wanted to go to church. Then when my parents split i was left in a catholic school to make all the decisions for myself, and i just found religion to be too little on proof and too much about "god is all powerful do as the bible says!!"

id rather be judged on my character and decisions than my ability to kiss ass on a universal scale

 

[sytaylor]

i hav no problem with islam. its just i doubt that the koran would say something that is simply not true. all though im no big believer in biblical history, there are certain facts understood amongst many religions, i.e that moses was not a prophet. These falsifications, and misinterpretations, can reshape views, which is another reason why religion as a whole can be dangerous. look how the judeo-christian world has made islam completely and utterly linked to terrorism. its bullshit, there is a huge element of conflicting cultures, but that also goes with the fact that a lot of the religious world exists in third-world poverty, whilst there are therse capatalist countries such as america and united kingdom, living in upmost wealth. the contrast is ridiculous. and if u look at the poverty in these nations, u can almost understand why a person can be easily led to believe something like the koran glorifies ramming a plane into a building with the purpose of killing considering the dreadful living conditions, when of course, islam, im sure (im no real expert in the religion) promotes the complete opposite. still going off topic here, back to why god DOESNT exist...hehe.

there is certainly a link between social development and lack fo religion... take the dark ages in the uk... the countries most religious time... most of the dicoveries of the romans were wiped out because life became about fearing god again... then when we get revolutionairy doctors thigns start to change, they go against religion but actually make life better!! any religion that condems surgery to repair a broken leg is archiac and outdated... and thats what religions did in the dark ages, now theyre been "modified" to fit society, its just makes me wonder how true the current interpriatations can be...

look at the book of genisis, the world was created in a week, because god says so... if god is so powerful why oh why would he/she let us question him/her?! the asnwer "well we're being judged"... doe sno-one else see how these answers seem to be convinient enough to try and stop you thinking?!

 

[sytaylor]

its all written in the quran
just read it and u'll see
and even the speech of muhammed still the same
try and u'll see

ARGHHHH! why do you trust this book so much?! its older than my grandmothers armpits, and they were past their sell by date LOOONG ago...

 

[RPGlover12]

why should i trust this book
why should i trust the quran
why should i trust the islam
why should i trust god/allah
why should i trust bible
i'll tell u each answer
but after this sytaylor




whats ur proplem man
who created us
who created this whole god damn universe
why is the use of us
who did everything for us
why do we even excist
how we came to this damn earth
can u explain this
if u did i will say that ur right sytaylor
and i will answer these questions



why should i trust the bible
can u guys tell me how do u trust a treator
the same thing here
how can i trust somethin changed
how can i trust in each book somethin diff from the other
can u tell me this
2nd
why do i trust the quran
cause its the only religion that allah want us to move on
its the only religion that hasn't been changed
3rdwhy do i trust allah
cause he said in his unchanged religion so

some guys say that
"islam is a religion of terrorism "
its not true guys
god said in the quran
whoever kills an innocent guy
as who killed all in the earth
so whoever did this didn't study islam reall well
and what did usama bin laden did was wrong
i do say this
if he wanted to harm the real guys harm the orgnization of u.s or any other
but not the innocent ones
just only in war







so u sytaylor

how the heck couldn't u believe in any religion







and u olegzaks
how the heck could u believe that jesus was jewish
no way
let me give u an example
how can u try to make christianity or islam more popular if ur not in those religion
no way
u dont know anything about them
so how jesus told them to go in the christian even if he's not
how

can u explain
just because its written in the bible
just try to read other religions
like quran
just try to
it got to many goods in it
and there is diff bet. jewish and christian
and jesus said that there will be another prophet sent
called muhammed
and it did happen
he said believe in him
that what happened
and moses said that
dont remember excatly when
but it did
so i think that u guys must learn before u talk

 

[Slougi]

I totally 100% agree to Sytaylor, BUT you have to also see the other ption that in fact we were created by an all-powerful god. That is certainly something that cannot be comfirmed nor denied. Maybe we are just , maybe we are nothing but a developed chain of organic componds. Who knows? I can tell you this: At least no living human being does, nor ever will.

 

[sk8bloke22]

whats ur proplem man
who created us
who created this whole god damn universe
why is the use of us
who did everything for us
why do we even excist
how we came to this damn earth
can u explain this
if u did i will say that ur right sytaylor
and i will answer these questions

ok heres some proof, evolution.:

The second law of thermodynamics basically says that the entropy in a closed system tends to increase or stay the same. That may sound complex to those who aren't familiar with physics, but it really is very simple. Entropy is just the amount of disorder in a system, and a system is basically anything you can think of. An atom is a system. Earth is a system. Our galaxy is a system. When I say disorder, I really mean disorder. At first glance, most people think that entropy is an actual chemical thing that has substance to it, and make it out to be a whole lot more complicated than it really is. Entropy really is disorder, in the very same sense that is commonly used by the general public. A room that has clothing cluttered about the floor, books piling out of the closet, and dirty dishes scattered everywhere has high entropy, while a room that has everything neatly filed away has low entropy. The second law tells us that the amount of entropy in a closed system tends to increase or stay the same. For example, a dirty house left on its own will not become clean. Dust can collect on surfaces, mold can settle in, and so on. The best you can hope for is for things to stay the same.

You may think that you can decrease the entropy of a system yourself by cleaning that messy room or using a vaccum cleaner. This brings us to what I mean by closed systems. There are two kinds of systems: closed and open. An open system is defined as a system that has an outside source of energy. Earth, for example, is open because it has the sun. Your room, for example, is an open system because it has an outside energy source: you. With an outside energy source, entropy in a contained area can actually decrease. It can only decrease, however, at the expense of other parts of the universe. The second law really only applies to the universe as a whole. You room, for example, is messy again. You decide to clean it. You pick up the clothes, fold them and put them away. While your room may have decreased in entropy, the rest of the universe has not. The energy that you used to pick up your room was expelled from your body as heat. More heat means more entropy. The amount of entropy generated by the heat from you far outweighs any entropy you may have "taken away" from you. This is why the second law of thermodynamics speaks specifically about closed systems. Closed systems have no energy source. The only truly closed system in existence is the entire universe itself, because that is all there is. It has no outside energy source because there isn't anything outside of it to begin with. That tiny little section of the cosmos that is your room may have decreased in entropy, but for reasons already discussed, the rest of the universe suffers from an increase. The second law prevails: the closed system increases in entropy.

What does this have to do with evolution?

Evolution, as we all know, involves the very gradual change of organisms over long periods of geologic time. Very often, those changes are from simple to complex. Certainly, a human is more ordered (has less entropy) than a single celled bacteria. That would mean that evolution from basic cells to modern animals would decrease the entropy of the universe, and violate the second law, correct? No. Actually, its quite the opposite. The more complex a system is, the more entropy it has. Imagine a box. It doesn't matter what kind of box. Just imagine a box. Imagine that there is a single hydrogen atom bouncing around inside of that box. It seems neat and tidy, right? Most people imagine this as a box with a little red or blue ball bouncing around inside of it. Now imagine a box with a hundred of those balls bouncing around inside of it. Imagine red blue and green balls. Imagine different sized balls. Imagine ten thousand different balls bouncing around inside at incredible speeds. The system is more complex now because of all of the features we've added, and it's become much more disordered, hasn't it?

A good way to think of the amount of entropy in a system is how many states are there that the system could be in that have the overall same appearance. Think about the box again. Imagine it with one atom bouncing around again. Compare two states that the system of the box could be in: one where the ball is all the way on the left side of the box, and another where the ball is all the way on the right side of the box. You can easily distinguish the two, right? You can do the same with the atom being at the top of the box, at the bottom, etc., and none of them really look the same, do they? Let's go back to our box with the thousands of balls. Picture the different states that the box might be in. Because all of these balls are all over the place and the box is jam packed, all of these states have the same overall appearance. For this reason, water has extremely high amounts of entropy. Imagine a glass of clear water with nothing else in it. Just water. Imagine stirring the water now. After the water slows down, what does it look like? It doesn't look any different at all, does it? Even though the water molecules inside that glass are in completely different positions due to your stirring, it still has the same overall appearance. Organisms are the same way.

Imagine a very simple cell with nothing but a nucleus. Imagine the different states it might be in (I would probably picture the nucleus in different places). Imagine the nucleus on the left side of the cell. Now imagine it on the right. You can tell the difference, right? These two states don't have the same overall appearance. Now imagine trillions of cells all mangled around. Imagine all the different positions these cells might have. They all have the same overall appearance, don't they? That's because more complex systems have higher entropy. This is well known in science. The mistake that creationists make when they believe that evolution violates the second law is that they think that simple to complex means disordered to ordered. As I've shown, this is not nearly the case. More ordered most certainly does not mean more complex.

After hearing this explanation, some creationists probe further by saying that the assembly of non living material into life violates the second law. Again, this is not true, but for a different reason than discussed above. The random scattering of nucleotides, DNA, RNA and so on all mangled around forming into a neat little cell does go from disordered to ordered. What creationists do not take into account here is that the earth is not a closed system. These things can happen because the earth has the sun as an energy source. The sun and lightning heating the ocean would provoke chemical reactions among all of those organic compounds that would tend not to happen without them, just like the second law says. Imagine, for example, a park. Through the middle of the park is a stone wall. Scattered in a disordered fashion across the ground on the west side of the wall are many, many leaves. Imagine that wind blows these leaves east. All of the leaves collect on the walls. These collections of leaves are more ordered than the state that the leaves were in before the wind blew. Again, this can happen because earth is an open system. The wind is a result of differences in air pressure, which is a result of the unequal heating of the earth by the sun. Had the earth been a closed system, there would be no sun, therefore no wind, and the leaves would have just sat there. It's the same way with organisms.

Now, even if simple to complex did mean disordered to ordered, the usage of food energy, as said before, far outweighs any decrease in entropy made by bodily functions. For you to clean your room, you use that food energy. For organelles inside cells to get rid of waste unwanted substances, energy is used. That energy is either derived from plants, which get their energy from the sun by photosynthesis, or by photosynthesis carried out by the cell itself (or, in rare cases chemosynthesis), and is expelled as heat, increasing the universe's entropy. True: the cell may be cleaner and more ordered, but outside the cell there is more heat and therefore more entropy. The cell is an open system, just like the earth. "

believe is u want, but it is scientific, and very difficult to disprove.

[ some guys say that
"islam is a religion of terrorism "
its not true guys
god said in the quran
whoever kills an innocent guy
as who killed all in the earth
so whoever did this didn't study islam reall well
and what did usama bin laden did was wrong
i do say this
if he wanted to harm the real guys harm the orgnization of u.s or any other
but not the innocent ones
just only in war ]

totally agree with u there though.

sorry about the lengthy post.

 

[Slougi]

Good long post Robert .This is a bit off-topic but the universe is not necessarily a cosed system... It is quiet possible that there are numerous parallel universes existant at the same time interval which draw energy from one another. It is hypothesized that you could travel between these through wormholes. Sounds like science-fiction i know but several researchers have suggested such things. a bit hard to explain but infinitely big things like the univers may be contained in a kind of meta-plain, which in turn is also infinitely big. That in turn... You get the idea

 

[Slougi]

*just forget it, made a mistake*

 

[sk8bloke22]

yeh the concept of infinity is very hard to comprehend, probably only because our lives are based on a linear life cycle.
from birth --> death .

but yeh, u could be right. but wateva, a closed system would be wateva surrounds the millions of universes. that how extract tries to explain things simply so ppl can understand, if it just used loads of scientific termonology instead, only like professeurs would understand it, thats why i like it.

 

[Slougi]

yeh the concept of infinity is very hard to comprehend, probably only because our lives are based on a linear life cycle.
from birth --> death .

but yeh, u could be right. but wateva, a closed system would be wateva surrounds the millions of universes. that how extract tries to explain things simply so ppl can understand, if it just used loads of scientific termonology instead, only like professeurs would understand it, thats why i like it.

Yes but imagine that thing that contains the millions of universes was also contained in one of those... things... whatever u call them . Then in theory there would be NO closed system possible, at least not 100 % closed

 

[Josep]

sk8bloke22: NIIce long post, hehe, don't worry im not going to qoute that by the way where did you plagerize that from? haha j/k I read all of what you wrote, given i don't think there is any more to clarify in it, just to Reitterate

Open system: A system, such as a living organism, in which both matter and energy are exchanged between the system and the environment.

Closed system: System in which energy--but not matter-- is exchanged between the system and its environment.

for anyone that cares...

I don't recall you saying sk8bloke22 if you had a religion, based on what you've said its hard to make that clear I don't know if your a professor, but i know a few from M.I.T. that still have a religion despite having all that knowledge of what you said.
BTW sk8bloke22, for my AP environmental science class im going to take almost word for word what ya said, k? haha, were going over that stuff right now, im not going to claim its mine, im just going to use it

o yeah, R-E-S-P-E-CT is what were looking for to stay in this forum, no one get nasty with anyone. i have a post for you later sytaylor:blush: i gotta run some errands, brb

waaay too many smiley faces...

 

[Jaz]

Why does there always seem to be a thread about God or heaven or something? There will never be an end to this as we clearly are of all different religions and different beliefs. Believe what you want! But don't call other's beliefs bollocks.

 

[Josep]

Why does there always seem to be a thread about God or heaven or something? There will never be an end to this as we clearly are of all different religions and different beliefs. Believe what you want! But don't call other's beliefs bollocks.

stepped into something you probably shouldn't have vill22 People in america don't believe the terrorist thing should have happened, but people in other countries think it was good...definitly won't go any further cause i DO NOT really want to lead this thread in to that type of converstation, but basically jaz, is there any easy answer to life like the one you just proposed? of course not, unless you live in a utopian world

 

[Jaz]

I just strongly feel that there shouldn't be a `debate` about God. The only thing that can come from this thread is offended people.

 

[sytaylor]

why should i trust the bible
can u guys tell me how do u trust a treator
the same thing here
how can i trust somethin changed
how can i trust in each book somethin diff from the other
can u tell me this
2nd
why do i trust the quran
cause its the only religion that allah want us to move on
its the only religion that hasn't been changed
3rdwhy do i trust allah
cause he said in his unchanged religion so

yes HOW do you know this?! because you have been taught it... but who's to say your teachers are wrong?

QUOTE]Originally posted by RPGlover12

some guys say that
"islam is a religion of terrorism "
its not true guys
god said in the quran
whoever kills an innocent guy
as who killed all in the earth
so whoever did this didn't study islam reall well
and what did usama bin laden did was wrong
i do say this
if he wanted to harm the real guys harm the orgnization of u.s or any other
but not the innocent ones
just only in war
[/QUOTE]
i never questioned that

so u sytaylor

how the heck couldn't u believe in any religion

Simple, I don't like the evidence, i think its very much based on having to believe what other people tell you and a series of books, there is no sign, there is no obvious call to a higher power, because if their was we would ALL feel it and have the ability to negate it

and u olegzaks
how the heck could u believe that jesus was jewish
no way
let me give u an example
how can u try to make christianity or islam more popular if ur not in those religion
no way
u dont know anything about them
so how jesus told them to go in the christian even if he's not
how

can u explain
just because its written in the bible
just try to read other religions
like quran
just try to
it got to many goods in it
and there is diff bet. jewish and christian
and jesus said that there will be another prophet sent
called muhammed
and it did happen
he said believe in him
that what happened
and moses said that
dont remember excatly when
but it did
so i think that u guys must learn before u talk

Now what you just did is what causes war, you believe your version of history is right because its what you have been taught. What im saying is i dont know, can you not accept that? Why to you believe so much? Its almost been bred into you that there absolutley is god and there is no way to doubt this because there is, and because there is there is no way to doubt it and because there is no way to doubt it there is a god... say a pattern here? What im saying is,

a) because things are written does not make them truth (yes even in the quaran)
b) religion seems to have been forced on you and you have no way of letting go, i just wish you could see things from my view here, im not sayin there cant be god, im saying i dont know, but i certainly dont believe what is written

 

[sytaylor]

I totally 100% agree to Sytaylor, BUT you have to also see the other ption that in fact we were created by an all-powerful god. That is certainly something that cannot be comfirmed nor denied. Maybe we are just , maybe we are nothing but a developed chain of organic componds. Who knows? I can tell you this: At least no living human being does, nor ever will.

Now you see... i was all set to give you a pat on the back... but what i say is humans have no limits, we should be free to think and feel and live our lives, if religion helps with ethics great . You can never deny something you dont know, which is what makes this argument so hard... however on the religious side.. the whole idea of faith is believeing something you dont know, and does nobody else find it hippocritical that the atheist is condemed for not having faith in something that you cant proove, when all im saying as an atheist is i can neither confim nor deny what there is/isnt... so im not going to place faith in something i dont know

 

[sytaylor]

I just strongly feel that there shouldn't be a `debate` about God. The only thing that can come from this thread is offended people.

Well dont read it then
i mean cmon, if people want to talk, let them talk, if they can put up with my rants and raves great! if not tell me i wont mind

 

[sk8bloke22]

ok i think this thread is relevant. its interesting to hear wat ppl think. it is interesting to see wat ppl come up with to prove/disprove the theory of god. i have no problem with ppl believing wat eva they want, its a free world after all. its the theory of god im questioning, and that sounds like an attack on religion, and indirectly it is, but thats not my intentions. similar i would argue against ppl taking heroin, but i wouldnt hate someone who did. its a debate. in a debate, there often isnt a conclusion, as it is based on bias opinions.

 

[RPGlover12]

hey sytaylor
u dont feel it
cause u have no religion
i felt it once
i can't tell u that i felt it excatly
i was just thinking of
how close am i to god before i sleep
and i dreamt of a man telling me look in this microscope to see how close u're to god
and i did
and i saw the sky
it was beautifull
and when i woke up i knew that god accepted all my prayers
allmost all who prays alot
worship god alot
well have visions like that
and am sure 100% that ther are many people like me had some visions like this
can u explain this sytaylor
and how's my great great great great great great grand father known that there was islam and quran
can u explain this
how can u explain that there are 1.5 bilion guys are muslims worship god very hard
well this endup with nothin
of course not
maybe am not very religious
but i know lots of info about islam and other religions
i know there are alot of christians and jewish here
but why do we all of the religions tells us to worship god
and i can't tell u how the quran still the same from more than 1422 or even more
and i've got proofs that muhammed is a real prophet
12 proof
no more


and if u studies quran and bible
u'll see what they mean
and i want to ask u christian and jewish guys
is the bible of urs called the torah and gosplem or both called the bible
and do they have any diff
cause in arabian countries there is a diff between those two