Interesting debate on existance of god, worth a read
- Thread starter sk8bloke22
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sytaylor
Sy
Azimer said:
point taken but you dont have to read this topic, rpglover is posting and otehrs are counter posting...
and as a side note, notice how you quote the bible, that indeed is a clever thought provoking quote, but whats to say that was ever even said? hmm? how do you know it was not a scholar trying to explain why you should not debate religion, im not trying to destroy faith... id HATE the idea... faith is a wonderful thing, what i want is to debate the existance of god
Last edited:
RPGlover12
New member
ok sk8bloke here is something
lets talk again about the tree
lets say someone talked to it
and another one talked to it
and then they didn't leave it untill they died
so do u say that the proof is gone because nobody talked to him in this age
well dont be so concerned there is one that is going to make u all guys go to the islam do u want to know who he is he is jesus ur prophet guys he is coming from the heavens go down to the earth and kill the antichrist with the mahdi (a guy who was born to make the unmuslims go back to their religion he is going to be chalifs)do u remember Ibrahim when he was the only person standing in the whole world he was the only one who is a believer none of his family or anybody believed him they even said that he was a liar and he hadn't been send by god they thought that their god is the stones that they worshipp him and after that they burned him for breaking it so he allah made the fire be calm and comfortobale for him and he didn't have any harm can u believe it just because he was telling the truth and wanted men to believe him another one is jesus when he was going to get killed by some men do u know the traitor that told the guys where he is allah made that guy looks like jesus so they killed him not jesus and jesus went up to the heavens and he is waiting for the day that allah tells him to come down from heavens to make the people believe in islam and there are other many stories about god saving those guys from everything i dont remember them all but i can't tell them to u guys cause u will say "how do u believe some stuff like that "and say silly thing
and sytaylor
can u tell me what am scared of ??????????? can u explain to me why am scared if am do scared i wouldn't stop posting and posting and posting and posting untill i finish up everything in this world
u're the one who is scared not me
lets talk again about the tree
lets say someone talked to it
and another one talked to it
and then they didn't leave it untill they died
so do u say that the proof is gone because nobody talked to him in this age
well dont be so concerned there is one that is going to make u all guys go to the islam do u want to know who he is he is jesus ur prophet guys he is coming from the heavens go down to the earth and kill the antichrist with the mahdi (a guy who was born to make the unmuslims go back to their religion he is going to be chalifs)do u remember Ibrahim when he was the only person standing in the whole world he was the only one who is a believer none of his family or anybody believed him they even said that he was a liar and he hadn't been send by god they thought that their god is the stones that they worshipp him and after that they burned him for breaking it so he allah made the fire be calm and comfortobale for him and he didn't have any harm can u believe it just because he was telling the truth and wanted men to believe him another one is jesus when he was going to get killed by some men do u know the traitor that told the guys where he is allah made that guy looks like jesus so they killed him not jesus and jesus went up to the heavens and he is waiting for the day that allah tells him to come down from heavens to make the people believe in islam and there are other many stories about god saving those guys from everything i dont remember them all but i can't tell them to u guys cause u will say "how do u believe some stuff like that "and say silly thing
and sytaylor
can u tell me what am scared of ??????????? can u explain to me why am scared if am do scared i wouldn't stop posting and posting and posting and posting untill i finish up everything in this world
u're the one who is scared not me
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sk8bloke22
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- #284
RPGlover12 said:
well, in theory (as this is just a theory, an idea), unless the ppl were known about then they didnt exist. its just like saying, theres probably types of people in the other half of the world who u didnt realise existed. but i dont understand ur example......2 guys talk to a tree? and then die next to it. well for those people they saw and quite strangely talked to the tree, so fr them it existed...........its not quite the idea of wats being said.
if like i tell u a tree just fell down in a forest, how do u know it made a sound? im shit at getting examples, someone just told me that a while back
RPGlover12
New member
ok lets do another
like there is a guy who nobody talked to him except 2 and others talked to him using the telephone but nobody now knows his number u just keep on searching for his number he can hear u and talk to u tele. but u can't hear his voice
ok lets stop the examples
lets say something sk8bloke
1st this guy made 3 books
a book ahs been changed
and another has been changed
the third hasn't and they all speak about this guy and his goodness and what should we do to please him and this guy doesnt' the first book nor the second he only likes the 3rd
and he wants us to read this book and like it and dont care about the 2 old
which are u going to do
like there is a guy who nobody talked to him except 2 and others talked to him using the telephone but nobody now knows his number u just keep on searching for his number he can hear u and talk to u tele. but u can't hear his voice
ok lets stop the examples
lets say something sk8bloke
1st this guy made 3 books
a book ahs been changed
and another has been changed
the third hasn't and they all speak about this guy and his goodness and what should we do to please him and this guy doesnt' the first book nor the second he only likes the 3rd
and he wants us to read this book and like it and dont care about the 2 old
which are u going to do
sytaylor
Sy
RPGlover12 said:
why am i scared? what do i have to fear? you are the one who is defending something here... you're arguments seem somewhat irrational too. I can live with the fact that there may not be an afterlife, im not scared of not having eternal life... everybody dies
first of all you dont know which books have and have not been changed because not you nor most of your ancestors were alive during the writings and passing down of this 3rd book. Plus because something is not changed does not make it right. It could still be as wrong as it was 1400 years ago!
second of all "they all speak about", that is only in your life, where i live im allowed to make my own decisions about what i see is right, if i want a religion i go get it, nothing is forced/offered to me (not anymore anyways). For some reason most of the people who go to churchg do so "for an afterlife" and im sorry but there has to be more you can do in your life than turn up to some building for eternal life... like maybe be a good person?!
medical_guy
New member
the scientific proof to god's existance
I have a scientific proof that is fully debatable about the existance of god, i study medicine, but i will not get to how many wonders the human being has without him realising it. I will speak in terms of simple chemistry and physics, i know most of u guys here are programers and engineers who got so much carried away with their science that they doubted the presence of GOD. Listen:
People say that life came to be spontaniously,( through evolution), but according to the laws of chemistry and sheer knowledge, there is something which we call entropy( simply the degree of disorder) molecules of this world tend to go into an unordered matter. U can easily test it, simply put 10 white balls in one side of a box, and 10 other black on the other side, close the box, and mix, the balls white and black will be all mixed, if u continue to mix for 1000 years u will never find them sorted the way u have put them on each side of a box. If these things must be ordered u have to get yourself to SORT THEM WITH UR hand each type (black or white on each side of the box). Now imagine this WHOLE WORLD WITH THE UNCOUNTABLE amount of molecules are mixed together since big bang, do u think that it is so simple to sort itself into this life form possibility, this would NEVER happen unless some THING sorts it with the expenditure of power to allow for the proper sorting of life. Therefore there MUST be a power that sorted life from the bigining which the power of GOD. This as simple as I can go, there are much better examples in medicine that can easily rule out evolution, but simply look at evolution, the best word that evolutionsets like is "OVER TIME THIS HAPPENED AND THAT HAPPENED", they never backup their statments with real explinations, for example, we had the bacteria, over time it became an eukaryote, over time they gathered to form a plant and so on". Scientists so far cannot "make" the simplest living form. They only "emulate" the condition of life, take things from life and try to understand them. So life is MUCH MUCH MORE complicated than simply a natural thing that cam by chance.
Secondly about the religions, i always like to repeat aword, NEVER EVER JUDGE A BOOK OR A RELIGION without knowing it truly. People, if u can simply understand what is written in the Holy Quran, u would never have ever said such a thing as it is wrong or doubted. The language it uses is so huge, that MANY of the scientific advances we have now are written in it. For ur knowledge, this book says that the earth is actually oval in shape more than 1400 years ago, when people in europe did thought that the world ends at the atlantic ocean. In our book, it says how a human being is made from the stage of the embryo till he is born. Please be more open minded and think.
Sytaylor, to me a religion that controls the circle of life and provides me with enough proofs that are logical to the human mind, is much better than a religion that actually admits that it had many mistakes in its presence. And to me a religion that puts me in the right track with giving me a choice to be a good person, is better than a culture that says u are free to do whatever u want and make the people go freely without knowing what is right and wrong, for example the problem of uncontroled sex in the USA, look what it has caused, so many probelms, including the wide spread AIDs in that country, and the huge number of kid that never get to be raised by their real parent, ( if they are ever raised at all). In our religion, a person must marry religiously in order to make sex with someone, which makes a much better life with a healthier marrige and much better care for the children.
I hope u read my full long post, but please be open minded and read, do not just say this guy is against me, on the other side, i must flame him with a post.
I have a scientific proof that is fully debatable about the existance of god, i study medicine, but i will not get to how many wonders the human being has without him realising it. I will speak in terms of simple chemistry and physics, i know most of u guys here are programers and engineers who got so much carried away with their science that they doubted the presence of GOD. Listen:
People say that life came to be spontaniously,( through evolution), but according to the laws of chemistry and sheer knowledge, there is something which we call entropy( simply the degree of disorder) molecules of this world tend to go into an unordered matter. U can easily test it, simply put 10 white balls in one side of a box, and 10 other black on the other side, close the box, and mix, the balls white and black will be all mixed, if u continue to mix for 1000 years u will never find them sorted the way u have put them on each side of a box. If these things must be ordered u have to get yourself to SORT THEM WITH UR hand each type (black or white on each side of the box). Now imagine this WHOLE WORLD WITH THE UNCOUNTABLE amount of molecules are mixed together since big bang, do u think that it is so simple to sort itself into this life form possibility, this would NEVER happen unless some THING sorts it with the expenditure of power to allow for the proper sorting of life. Therefore there MUST be a power that sorted life from the bigining which the power of GOD. This as simple as I can go, there are much better examples in medicine that can easily rule out evolution, but simply look at evolution, the best word that evolutionsets like is "OVER TIME THIS HAPPENED AND THAT HAPPENED", they never backup their statments with real explinations, for example, we had the bacteria, over time it became an eukaryote, over time they gathered to form a plant and so on". Scientists so far cannot "make" the simplest living form. They only "emulate" the condition of life, take things from life and try to understand them. So life is MUCH MUCH MORE complicated than simply a natural thing that cam by chance.
Secondly about the religions, i always like to repeat aword, NEVER EVER JUDGE A BOOK OR A RELIGION without knowing it truly. People, if u can simply understand what is written in the Holy Quran, u would never have ever said such a thing as it is wrong or doubted. The language it uses is so huge, that MANY of the scientific advances we have now are written in it. For ur knowledge, this book says that the earth is actually oval in shape more than 1400 years ago, when people in europe did thought that the world ends at the atlantic ocean. In our book, it says how a human being is made from the stage of the embryo till he is born. Please be more open minded and think.
Sytaylor, to me a religion that controls the circle of life and provides me with enough proofs that are logical to the human mind, is much better than a religion that actually admits that it had many mistakes in its presence. And to me a religion that puts me in the right track with giving me a choice to be a good person, is better than a culture that says u are free to do whatever u want and make the people go freely without knowing what is right and wrong, for example the problem of uncontroled sex in the USA, look what it has caused, so many probelms, including the wide spread AIDs in that country, and the huge number of kid that never get to be raised by their real parent, ( if they are ever raised at all). In our religion, a person must marry religiously in order to make sex with someone, which makes a much better life with a healthier marrige and much better care for the children.
I hope u read my full long post, but please be open minded and read, do not just say this guy is against me, on the other side, i must flame him with a post.
adi
get out of my house
Totally agree with you medical guy. For me the argument comes down to this:
1. You're totally open-minded to the possibility that God exists.
2. You're totally open-minded to the possibility that God doesn't exist.
I go for number 1, but there is no right or wrong in this debate. It will just continue forever until someone has concrete evidence to prove their view.
1. You're totally open-minded to the possibility that God exists.
2. You're totally open-minded to the possibility that God doesn't exist.
I go for number 1, but there is no right or wrong in this debate. It will just continue forever until someone has concrete evidence to prove their view.
RPGlover12
New member
hey medical guy where have u been all this time and thnx for helping me in the proving stuff i really appreciate it and i say it fully hearted
just keep on going medical guy
just keep on going medical guy
OP
sk8bloke22
roll for life
- Thread Starter
- #290
RPGlover12 said:
and thats meant to convince me ???
i would say thats nice, but theres more to life than just reading books.
RPGlover12
New member
it didn't mean to convince u at all i just wanted u to believe in religion and stuff it wasn't made to convince u i dunno it just came to my mind so i typed itsk8bloke22 said:
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sk8bloke22
roll for life
- Thread Starter
- #292
ah but the world didnt just occur from a big bang, helped by nothing. back to ur box, as u said, the balls are only ordered and the level of entropy is only lowered from an external source. that would make the box an 'open system'. i.e it cannot tidy itself, it can only stay the same or increase in the amount of entropy (such as say dirt)...
im gonna quote that site again as aint a big authority on the issue of open/closed systems...,so for those who have already read this, u dont really need to again. kinda just for medical guy as he is late in the debate, hehe:
"The second law of thermodynamics basically says that the entropy in a closed system tends to increase or stay the same. That may sound complex to those who aren't familiar with physics, but it really is very simple. Entropy is just the amount of disorder in a system, and a system is basically anything you can think of. An atom is a system. Earth is a system. Our galaxy is a system. When I say disorder, I really mean disorder. At first glance, most people think that entropy is an actual chemical thing that has substance to it, and make it out to be a whole lot more complicated than it really is. Entropy really is disorder, in the very same sense that is commonly used by the general public. A room that has clothing cluttered about the floor, books piling out of the closet, and dirty dishes scattered everywhere has high entropy, while a room that has everything neatly filed away has low entropy. The second law tells us that the amount of entropy in a closed system tends to increase or stay the same. For example, a dirty house left on its own will not become clean. Dust can collect on surfaces, mold can settle in, and so on. The best you can hope for is for things to stay the same.
You may think that you can decrease the entropy of a system yourself by cleaning that messy room or using a vaccum cleaner. This brings us to what I mean by closed systems. There are two kinds of systems: closed and open. An open system is defined as a system that has an outside source of energy. Earth, for example, is open because it has the sun. Your room, for example, is an open system because it has an outside energy source: you. With an outside energy source, entropy in a contained area can actually decrease. It can only decrease, however, at the expense of other parts of the universe. The second law really only applies to the universe as a whole. You room, for example, is messy again. You decide to clean it. You pick up the clothes, fold them and put them away. While your room may have decreased in entropy, the rest of the universe has not. The energy that you used to pick up your room was expelled from your body as heat. More heat means more entropy. The amount of entropy generated by the heat from you far outweighs any entropy you may have "taken away" from you. This is why the second law of thermodynamics speaks specifically about closed systems. Closed systems have no energy source. The only truly closed system in existence is the entire universe itself, because that is all there is. It has no outside energy source because there isn't anything outside of it to begin with. That tiny little section of the cosmos that is your room may have decreased in entropy, but for reasons already discussed, the rest of the universe suffers from an increase. The second law prevails: the closed system increases in entropy.
What does this have to do with evolution?
Evolution, as we all know, involves the very gradual change of organisms over long periods of geologic time. Very often, those changes are from simple to complex. Certainly, a human is more ordered (has less entropy) than a single celled bacteria. That would mean that evolution from basic cells to modern animals would decrease the entropy of the universe, and violate the second law, correct? No. Actually, its quite the opposite. The more complex a system is, the more entropy it has. Imagine a box. It doesn't matter what kind of box. Just imagine a box. Imagine that there is a single hydrogen atom bouncing around inside of that box. It seems neat and tidy, right? Most people imagine this as a box with a little red or blue ball bouncing around inside of it. Now imagine a box with a hundred of those balls bouncing around inside of it. Imagine red blue and green balls. Imagine different sized balls. Imagine ten thousand different balls bouncing around inside at incredible speeds. The system is more complex now because of all of the features we've added, and it's become much more disordered, hasn't it?
A good way to think of the amount of entropy in a system is how many states are there that the system could be in that have the overall same appearance. Think about the box again. Imagine it with one atom bouncing around again. Compare two states that the system of the box could be in: one where the ball is all the way on the left side of the box, and another where the ball is all the way on the right side of the box. You can easily distinguish the two, right? You can do the same with the atom being at the top of the box, at the bottom, etc., and none of them really look the same, do they? Let's go back to our box with the thousands of balls. Picture the different states that the box might be in. Because all of these balls are all over the place and the box is jam packed, all of these states have the same overall appearance. For this reason, water has extremely high amounts of entropy. Imagine a glass of clear water with nothing else in it. Just water. Imagine stirring the water now. After the water slows down, what does it look like? It doesn't look any different at all, does it? Even though the water molecules inside that glass are in completely different positions due to your stirring, it still has the same overall appearance. Organisms are the same way.
Imagine a very simple cell with nothing but a nucleus. Imagine the different states it might be in (I would probably picture the nucleus in different places). Imagine the nucleus on the left side of the cell. Now imagine it on the right. You can tell the difference, right? These two states don't have the same overall appearance. Now imagine trillions of cells all mangled around. Imagine all the different positions these cells might have. They all have the same overall appearance, don't they? That's because more complex systems have higher entropy. This is well known in science. The mistake that creationists make when they believe that evolution violates the second law is that they think that simple to complex means disordered to ordered. As I've shown, this is not nearly the case. More ordered most certainly does not mean more complex.
After hearing this explanation, some creationists probe further by saying that the assembly of non living material into life violates the second law. Again, this is not true, but for a different reason than discussed above. The random scattering of nucleotides, DNA, RNA and so on all mangled around forming into a neat little cell does go from disordered to ordered. What creationists do not take into account here is that the earth is not a closed system. These things can happen because the earth has the sun as an energy source. The sun and lightning heating the ocean would provoke chemical reactions among all of those organic compounds that would tend not to happen without them, just like the second law says. Imagine, for example, a park. Through the middle of the park is a stone wall. Scattered in a disordered fashion across the ground on the west side of the wall are many, many leaves. Imagine that wind blows these leaves east. All of the leaves collect on the walls. These collections of leaves are more ordered than the state that the leaves were in before the wind blew. Again, this can happen because earth is an open system. The wind is a result of differences in air pressure, which is a result of the unequal heating of the earth by the sun. Had the earth been a closed system, there would be no sun, therefore no wind, and the leaves would have just sat there. It's the same way with organisms.
Now, even if simple to complex did mean disordered to ordered, the usage of food energy, as said before, far outweighs any decrease in entropy made by bodily functions. For you to clean your room, you use that food energy. For organelles inside cells to get rid of waste unwanted substances, energy is used. That energy is either derived from plants, which get their energy from the sun by photosynthesis, or by photosynthesis carried out by the cell itself (or, in rare cases chemosynthesis), and is expelled as heat, increasing the universe's entropy. True: the cell may be cleaner and more ordered, but outside the cell there is more heat and therefore more entropy. The cell is an open system, just like the earth. "
im gonna quote that site again as aint a big authority on the issue of open/closed systems...,so for those who have already read this, u dont really need to again. kinda just for medical guy as he is late in the debate, hehe:
"The second law of thermodynamics basically says that the entropy in a closed system tends to increase or stay the same. That may sound complex to those who aren't familiar with physics, but it really is very simple. Entropy is just the amount of disorder in a system, and a system is basically anything you can think of. An atom is a system. Earth is a system. Our galaxy is a system. When I say disorder, I really mean disorder. At first glance, most people think that entropy is an actual chemical thing that has substance to it, and make it out to be a whole lot more complicated than it really is. Entropy really is disorder, in the very same sense that is commonly used by the general public. A room that has clothing cluttered about the floor, books piling out of the closet, and dirty dishes scattered everywhere has high entropy, while a room that has everything neatly filed away has low entropy. The second law tells us that the amount of entropy in a closed system tends to increase or stay the same. For example, a dirty house left on its own will not become clean. Dust can collect on surfaces, mold can settle in, and so on. The best you can hope for is for things to stay the same.
You may think that you can decrease the entropy of a system yourself by cleaning that messy room or using a vaccum cleaner. This brings us to what I mean by closed systems. There are two kinds of systems: closed and open. An open system is defined as a system that has an outside source of energy. Earth, for example, is open because it has the sun. Your room, for example, is an open system because it has an outside energy source: you. With an outside energy source, entropy in a contained area can actually decrease. It can only decrease, however, at the expense of other parts of the universe. The second law really only applies to the universe as a whole. You room, for example, is messy again. You decide to clean it. You pick up the clothes, fold them and put them away. While your room may have decreased in entropy, the rest of the universe has not. The energy that you used to pick up your room was expelled from your body as heat. More heat means more entropy. The amount of entropy generated by the heat from you far outweighs any entropy you may have "taken away" from you. This is why the second law of thermodynamics speaks specifically about closed systems. Closed systems have no energy source. The only truly closed system in existence is the entire universe itself, because that is all there is. It has no outside energy source because there isn't anything outside of it to begin with. That tiny little section of the cosmos that is your room may have decreased in entropy, but for reasons already discussed, the rest of the universe suffers from an increase. The second law prevails: the closed system increases in entropy.
What does this have to do with evolution?
Evolution, as we all know, involves the very gradual change of organisms over long periods of geologic time. Very often, those changes are from simple to complex. Certainly, a human is more ordered (has less entropy) than a single celled bacteria. That would mean that evolution from basic cells to modern animals would decrease the entropy of the universe, and violate the second law, correct? No. Actually, its quite the opposite. The more complex a system is, the more entropy it has. Imagine a box. It doesn't matter what kind of box. Just imagine a box. Imagine that there is a single hydrogen atom bouncing around inside of that box. It seems neat and tidy, right? Most people imagine this as a box with a little red or blue ball bouncing around inside of it. Now imagine a box with a hundred of those balls bouncing around inside of it. Imagine red blue and green balls. Imagine different sized balls. Imagine ten thousand different balls bouncing around inside at incredible speeds. The system is more complex now because of all of the features we've added, and it's become much more disordered, hasn't it?
A good way to think of the amount of entropy in a system is how many states are there that the system could be in that have the overall same appearance. Think about the box again. Imagine it with one atom bouncing around again. Compare two states that the system of the box could be in: one where the ball is all the way on the left side of the box, and another where the ball is all the way on the right side of the box. You can easily distinguish the two, right? You can do the same with the atom being at the top of the box, at the bottom, etc., and none of them really look the same, do they? Let's go back to our box with the thousands of balls. Picture the different states that the box might be in. Because all of these balls are all over the place and the box is jam packed, all of these states have the same overall appearance. For this reason, water has extremely high amounts of entropy. Imagine a glass of clear water with nothing else in it. Just water. Imagine stirring the water now. After the water slows down, what does it look like? It doesn't look any different at all, does it? Even though the water molecules inside that glass are in completely different positions due to your stirring, it still has the same overall appearance. Organisms are the same way.
Imagine a very simple cell with nothing but a nucleus. Imagine the different states it might be in (I would probably picture the nucleus in different places). Imagine the nucleus on the left side of the cell. Now imagine it on the right. You can tell the difference, right? These two states don't have the same overall appearance. Now imagine trillions of cells all mangled around. Imagine all the different positions these cells might have. They all have the same overall appearance, don't they? That's because more complex systems have higher entropy. This is well known in science. The mistake that creationists make when they believe that evolution violates the second law is that they think that simple to complex means disordered to ordered. As I've shown, this is not nearly the case. More ordered most certainly does not mean more complex.
After hearing this explanation, some creationists probe further by saying that the assembly of non living material into life violates the second law. Again, this is not true, but for a different reason than discussed above. The random scattering of nucleotides, DNA, RNA and so on all mangled around forming into a neat little cell does go from disordered to ordered. What creationists do not take into account here is that the earth is not a closed system. These things can happen because the earth has the sun as an energy source. The sun and lightning heating the ocean would provoke chemical reactions among all of those organic compounds that would tend not to happen without them, just like the second law says. Imagine, for example, a park. Through the middle of the park is a stone wall. Scattered in a disordered fashion across the ground on the west side of the wall are many, many leaves. Imagine that wind blows these leaves east. All of the leaves collect on the walls. These collections of leaves are more ordered than the state that the leaves were in before the wind blew. Again, this can happen because earth is an open system. The wind is a result of differences in air pressure, which is a result of the unequal heating of the earth by the sun. Had the earth been a closed system, there would be no sun, therefore no wind, and the leaves would have just sat there. It's the same way with organisms.
Now, even if simple to complex did mean disordered to ordered, the usage of food energy, as said before, far outweighs any decrease in entropy made by bodily functions. For you to clean your room, you use that food energy. For organelles inside cells to get rid of waste unwanted substances, energy is used. That energy is either derived from plants, which get their energy from the sun by photosynthesis, or by photosynthesis carried out by the cell itself (or, in rare cases chemosynthesis), and is expelled as heat, increasing the universe's entropy. True: the cell may be cleaner and more ordered, but outside the cell there is more heat and therefore more entropy. The cell is an open system, just like the earth. "
OP
sk8bloke22
roll for life
- Thread Starter
- #293
RPGlover12 said:
it didn't mean to convince u at all i just wanted u to believe in religion and stuff it wasn't made to convince u i dunno it just came to my mind so i typed it
fair enuff
RPGlover12
New member
yes
sytaylor
Sy
Re: the scientific proof to god's existance
"People say that life came to be spontaniously"
i dont, i say i dont think a god HAD to have caused life
entropy by its very nature cannot be exclusive, its an oxymoron! you're saying a random event cannot happen because its unlikeley! Do you know how silly it is to completley not consider something becuase it doesn't "seem" possible? The reason people say over time "this happened and that happened" is because that is the explanation, not a lack of...
"Therefore there MUST be a power" why why why why? because its all you can think of? OPEN YOUR MINDS PEOPLE, because something is more likeley and you believe it does not make it true.
"Scientists so far cannot "make" the simplest living form." yes but we can modify it trhough science, change it alter it... something at one point thought of as something only a god could do... plus we can replicate life we just do it the way nature does (eg test tube babies). If we want to create our own living beings then we'd prolly look towards AI to start with.
To believe in religion you have to close your mind and accept a theory of which you have no proof. My view is that i cannot proove anything so why should i believe anything?
I agree some people need religion, but religion shows me nothing but false hopes and empty promises
"People say that life came to be spontaniously"
i dont, i say i dont think a god HAD to have caused life
entropy by its very nature cannot be exclusive, its an oxymoron! you're saying a random event cannot happen because its unlikeley! Do you know how silly it is to completley not consider something becuase it doesn't "seem" possible? The reason people say over time "this happened and that happened" is because that is the explanation, not a lack of...
"Therefore there MUST be a power" why why why why? because its all you can think of? OPEN YOUR MINDS PEOPLE, because something is more likeley and you believe it does not make it true.
"Scientists so far cannot "make" the simplest living form." yes but we can modify it trhough science, change it alter it... something at one point thought of as something only a god could do... plus we can replicate life we just do it the way nature does (eg test tube babies). If we want to create our own living beings then we'd prolly look towards AI to start with.
To believe in religion you have to close your mind and accept a theory of which you have no proof. My view is that i cannot proove anything so why should i believe anything?
I agree some people need religion, but religion shows me nothing but false hopes and empty promises
medical_guy
New member
in reply to the evolutionary idealogy
Quote from:
"Most people imagine this as a box with a little red or blue ball bouncing around inside of it. Now imagine a box with a hundred of those balls bouncing around inside of it. Imagine red blue and green balls. Imagine different sized balls. Imagine ten thousand different balls bouncing around inside at incredible speeds. The system is more complex now because of all of the features we've added, and it's become much more disordered, hasn't it? "
Ahhh, but u r forgetting a very important thing, the human body is not simply a bigger box with more molecules, molecules in the human body r organized into new boxes and into certain places, a heart is not present once in ur leg, then in ur head, its always tilted a bit to ur left side of ur thorax, dna and rna are not flying in the human body, it is arranged in the building units of the body the cell, so to refine this model u must say that as we put more molecules, we also create more boxes organizing these molecules thus order MUST mean a lower level of entropy. U r actualy putting them INTO ceratin posititions and leaving them free there to be.
"The random scattering of nucleotides, DNA, RNA and so on all mangled around forming into a neat little cell does go from disordered to ordered. What creationists do not take into account here is that the earth is not a closed system. These things can happen because the earth has the sun as an energy source. The sun and lightning heating the ocean would provoke chemical reactions among all of those organic compounds that would tend not to happen without them, just like the second law says."
Are u saying that DNA , RNA , nucleotides have actually been created from the sun energy, lightning, fire etc. Firstly i have two objections, the most complex scientests right now can do in synthesizing organic compounds right now is much much simpler than the simplest polypeptide, that is with all the technology, created atmosphere perfect conditions, and with the addition of something u have removed from the principle of evolution, a THINKING MIND.
Always remember one thing, when a person die, he ceases to live, we burry him, this causes him to degenerate into the soil, EVEN WITHOUT THE PRESENCE OF BACTERIA. Now, if this is the spontanous reaction that is favored by the universe, for us to degenerate, for the dna and rna and protiens to reurn to simple molecules, this means this IS what causes a higher degree of disorder, this means the opposite was a lower degree of disorder and it occurs so quikly that life . They are only returned to life by ANOTHER LIFE FORM, not by itself. I would love to see more objective replies as the one u have sent. So i hope u reply in the same way u have just did.
Quote from:
"Most people imagine this as a box with a little red or blue ball bouncing around inside of it. Now imagine a box with a hundred of those balls bouncing around inside of it. Imagine red blue and green balls. Imagine different sized balls. Imagine ten thousand different balls bouncing around inside at incredible speeds. The system is more complex now because of all of the features we've added, and it's become much more disordered, hasn't it? "
Ahhh, but u r forgetting a very important thing, the human body is not simply a bigger box with more molecules, molecules in the human body r organized into new boxes and into certain places, a heart is not present once in ur leg, then in ur head, its always tilted a bit to ur left side of ur thorax, dna and rna are not flying in the human body, it is arranged in the building units of the body the cell, so to refine this model u must say that as we put more molecules, we also create more boxes organizing these molecules thus order MUST mean a lower level of entropy. U r actualy putting them INTO ceratin posititions and leaving them free there to be.
"The random scattering of nucleotides, DNA, RNA and so on all mangled around forming into a neat little cell does go from disordered to ordered. What creationists do not take into account here is that the earth is not a closed system. These things can happen because the earth has the sun as an energy source. The sun and lightning heating the ocean would provoke chemical reactions among all of those organic compounds that would tend not to happen without them, just like the second law says."
Are u saying that DNA , RNA , nucleotides have actually been created from the sun energy, lightning, fire etc. Firstly i have two objections, the most complex scientests right now can do in synthesizing organic compounds right now is much much simpler than the simplest polypeptide, that is with all the technology, created atmosphere perfect conditions, and with the addition of something u have removed from the principle of evolution, a THINKING MIND.
Always remember one thing, when a person die, he ceases to live, we burry him, this causes him to degenerate into the soil, EVEN WITHOUT THE PRESENCE OF BACTERIA. Now, if this is the spontanous reaction that is favored by the universe, for us to degenerate, for the dna and rna and protiens to reurn to simple molecules, this means this IS what causes a higher degree of disorder, this means the opposite was a lower degree of disorder and it occurs so quikly that life . They are only returned to life by ANOTHER LIFE FORM, not by itself. I would love to see more objective replies as the one u have sent. So i hope u reply in the same way u have just did.
medical_guy
New member
Quote:
"Do you know how silly it is to completley not consider something becuase it doesn't "seem" possible?"
I never said it is not possible because of randomness, IT IS TOTALY IMPOSIBLE IF IT BREAKS THE SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS which i am trying to proove here.
"The reason people say over time "this happened and that happened" is because that is the explanation, not a lack of... "
And i suppose that time can create wonders better than a powerfull creator ! Time is the explanation, well... then this means that ur whole theory is built on possibility and chances, i do not suppose that this is a more plausable theory than GOD.
"Therefore there MUST be a power" why why why why? because its all you can think of? OPEN YOUR MINDS PEOPLE, because something is more likeley and you believe it does not make it true.
I have written a hole post just to explain why, and not just because it is the only explanation, it is simply THE LOGICAL ONE for GOD's sake! opening my mind is exactly what i am trying to do.
"To believe in religion you have to close your mind and accept a theory of which you have no proof"
Who said so. First of all u do not have to close ur mind. Secondly, it DOES have a proof. People look at the Quran, there are tons of proofs within it. At least this religion offered me enough proofs, if ur religion doesn't offer u enough proofs does'nt mean all are the same, and that is exactly what is meant by open ur MIND, try to look at what other religions have as proofs, then judge that they are wrong or right
"I agree some people need religion, but religion shows me nothing but false hopes and empty promises"
False hopes...... empty promises, this sound more of a politician in the congress than my religion. At least going in life using the quran DID offer me a happier life than without it, and i have tried both lifes.
"Do you know how silly it is to completley not consider something becuase it doesn't "seem" possible?"
I never said it is not possible because of randomness, IT IS TOTALY IMPOSIBLE IF IT BREAKS THE SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS which i am trying to proove here.
"The reason people say over time "this happened and that happened" is because that is the explanation, not a lack of... "
And i suppose that time can create wonders better than a powerfull creator ! Time is the explanation, well... then this means that ur whole theory is built on possibility and chances, i do not suppose that this is a more plausable theory than GOD.
"Therefore there MUST be a power" why why why why? because its all you can think of? OPEN YOUR MINDS PEOPLE, because something is more likeley and you believe it does not make it true.
I have written a hole post just to explain why, and not just because it is the only explanation, it is simply THE LOGICAL ONE for GOD's sake! opening my mind is exactly what i am trying to do.
"To believe in religion you have to close your mind and accept a theory of which you have no proof"
Who said so. First of all u do not have to close ur mind. Secondly, it DOES have a proof. People look at the Quran, there are tons of proofs within it. At least this religion offered me enough proofs, if ur religion doesn't offer u enough proofs does'nt mean all are the same, and that is exactly what is meant by open ur MIND, try to look at what other religions have as proofs, then judge that they are wrong or right
"I agree some people need religion, but religion shows me nothing but false hopes and empty promises"
False hopes...... empty promises, this sound more of a politician in the congress than my religion. At least going in life using the quran DID offer me a happier life than without it, and i have tried both lifes.
OP
sk8bloke22
roll for life
- Thread Starter
- #298
cheers medical guy for giving me a good challenge....ill get back to u on that (just paid a visit to britboard, funny stuff)........andyway i beleive ppl can lead a happy life with religion. but religion has been seen in many cases its used as a political and tactical propaganda tool for institutions...u only hav to look at the now gone taliban system to see that. the whole regime was based on forcing fear into the population to maintain control, that fear derrived from religion, even if the religion itself was placed in the controls of dictators. the church has also been a culprit in corrupt politics and meddlings. i think that religion on a personal and individual level can be a stimulating experience, just as living a free life without religion. there hav been non-religious ppl who hav been just as happy the most-religious ppl. thats not really the question, the question is on the relevance of relgion if the existance of god is put in question.
as im not an expert on entropy, etc, ill try and answer ur decent reply medical guy in a posts time (at last some scientific stuff to read), i suggest reading that debate i linked on the first page of this very very very long thread. its very balanced and there arent really any conclusions other than the 2 profs own opposing views (ones a creationalist, the other an athiest) but arguements are pretty good.
as im not an expert on entropy, etc, ill try and answer ur decent reply medical guy in a posts time (at last some scientific stuff to read), i suggest reading that debate i linked on the first page of this very very very long thread. its very balanced and there arent really any conclusions other than the 2 profs own opposing views (ones a creationalist, the other an athiest) but arguements are pretty good.
Reznor007
New member
[Q]Ahhh, but u r forgetting a very important thing, the human body is not simply a bigger box with more molecules, molecules in the human body r organized into new boxes and into certain places, a heart is not present once in ur leg, then in ur head, its always tilted a bit to ur left side of ur thorax, dna and rna are not flying in the human body, it is arranged in the building units of the body the cell, so to refine this model u must say that as we put more molecules, we also create more boxes organizing these molecules thus order MUST mean a lower level of entropy. U r actualy putting them INTO ceratin posititions and leaving them free there to be.[/Q]
But while things are generally in the same area, they ARE NOT the same. Hair color, eye color, height, weight, amount of body hair, skin tone, facial features...everthing. While similar, noone is identical(excluding identical twins, since that is the same zygote/embryo that has split and continued growing..even though they are not truly identical). What about levels of intelligence, mental/physical retardation, people born missing a finger or having an extra toe. Hows that for entropy?
But while things are generally in the same area, they ARE NOT the same. Hair color, eye color, height, weight, amount of body hair, skin tone, facial features...everthing. While similar, noone is identical(excluding identical twins, since that is the same zygote/embryo that has split and continued growing..even though they are not truly identical). What about levels of intelligence, mental/physical retardation, people born missing a finger or having an extra toe. Hows that for entropy?
sytaylor
Sy
im not saying time is the answer at all, what i am saying is that the universe is not a box full of balls, we know so little about it i think its wrong to say it was created by a god. Remember you are thinking about things from a "there is a god and i know him her thought my religion" perspective... this clouds the idea that something can happen without that.
I fully believe i am typing right now of MY own free will and the fact my hands are moving is something created by me and my living energy... where this came from i dont know, but seriously, im yet to be given an example of a writing in religion that strikes me as anything more than a very clever way to disguise the fact the author had no phisical evidence.
and im sorry but how is an omniptant being that has no control over my thoughts logical?:blush:
seriously i wanna know what makes people believe, cos i still havent seen anything that grabs me and completley destroys my scepticism...
my life is extreemley happy! seriously ive had such a great life, im young, i can think what i want, im not in poverty, i love those closest to me and theres on person in particular who makes me happy at the very thought of them. i have no religion but i dont consider myself a bad person, im extreemley moral and religion offers me nothing i dont already have. The false hopes to me are and afterlife... i think its living where i do that drives it home... i love above a mortuary, everybody dies, so if we die what is the point in us living? what prupose does it serve? what does it proove? froma none creationalist point of view life seems to struggle on and do its darndest to survive and i can see why it would, but from a creationalist... whats the point? what does life proove that and omnipitent being does not already know?
I fully believe i am typing right now of MY own free will and the fact my hands are moving is something created by me and my living energy... where this came from i dont know, but seriously, im yet to be given an example of a writing in religion that strikes me as anything more than a very clever way to disguise the fact the author had no phisical evidence.
and im sorry but how is an omniptant being that has no control over my thoughts logical?:blush:
seriously i wanna know what makes people believe, cos i still havent seen anything that grabs me and completley destroys my scepticism...
my life is extreemley happy! seriously ive had such a great life, im young, i can think what i want, im not in poverty, i love those closest to me and theres on person in particular who makes me happy at the very thought of them. i have no religion but i dont consider myself a bad person, im extreemley moral and religion offers me nothing i dont already have. The false hopes to me are and afterlife... i think its living where i do that drives it home... i love above a mortuary, everybody dies, so if we die what is the point in us living? what prupose does it serve? what does it proove? froma none creationalist point of view life seems to struggle on and do its darndest to survive and i can see why it would, but from a creationalist... whats the point? what does life proove that and omnipitent being does not already know?
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