Interesting debate on existance of god, worth a read 2

[sk8bloke22]

ok i missed quite a lot here.ive said this ages ago about the contradictions of god
- Perfect: It is said that God is perfect. If this is the case, he cannot have flaws. He has no needs. Nor can he have any wants, for to suggest otherwise implies that he is not satisfied with his current state. Dissatisfaction is a product of imperfection, thus a perfect God would be totally satisfied with a static existence; that is to say, he would change nothing.

Yet, according to our definition, he changes everything. He creates. He spends six days doing so. Granted that to a timeless being six days would be instantaneous, but still, he is not static. This is a contradiction. An all-powerful being that neither needs nor wants to change does not change. Therefore, either God is not perfect, or he did not create the Universe.

In the latter case, either the Universe does not exist at all (a statement which we have strong reason to doubt is true) or the Universe came about without the aid of God. In either case, Gods existence becomes irrelevant; He has no importance to us for our existence, nor does our existence matter to him. Also, an unchanging, perfect being wouldn't be bothered by us at all (no interventions on his behalf, since he is satisfied with everything as it is).

-Ever-present (exists simultaneously in every point in space and every point in time)and Transcendental(exists separately from the material universe): Our definition of God says that he created and rules the Universe. It is impossible for him to be a part of the Universe, since that would suggest that he created himself. He cannot have created himself because he would have to already exist in order to create himself. Thus, God cannot be ever-present, as defined above. He can only be transcendental if he is the creator. Which is fine, since transcendentalism and ever-presence within the universe are contradictory anyway. You have to be either/or or neither, you cant be both.

-Omnipotent,createdthe Universe and Omniscient, has infinite wisdom: If God is to exist, he must either BE the Universe or be a PART of the Universe. In the former case, he can still be omnipresent, since by being the Universe he is automatically everywhere at once. In the latter, he looses his omnipresence. This limits him, since he needs to be able to travel to places that he currently does not occupy, and thus he looses his omnipotence, since someone with infinite power could by default be everywhere at once. So for God to be omnipotent he must be the Universe.

Now, if God is the Universe, he is observable, since the Universe is observable. The Universe also behaves in predictable ways, which humans have described in the scientific laws of physics, chemistry, biology, and others. Since these behaviors are true in all inertial frames of reference (all perspectives regardless of relative velocity), which indicates a finite Universe, Gods behavior is limited to those behaviors and to the resources of a finite Universe. This is contrary to the idea of omnipotence. While he would still be vastly powerful, especially to the eyes of a human, he is not all-powerful.

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

eddy :
I don't like to copy& paste from previous pages , so you better read it

and no , I'm talking about facts not theories not opinions

Nice profile.
Interests: Reading Qur'an , Trying to stop stupid people from talking shit about things they don't have a clue about
Is that what you think of alpha and taylor? along with everybody here?

thanks for explaining that
now I am not going to discuss it with you , because you are trying to fake my words
I never said anything wrong about them , I didn't even met them
and these words on my profile are there so stupid people can know I'm here , so if you think you are stupid it's for you , if ypu think you are smart then STOP DOING THESE THINGS , EVEN CHILDS DON'T MAKE THAT.

is that it states god created the earth in a matter of 6 days

not true
We have no statement from God that he created earth in 6 days
God created the seven skies in 6 days and that have nothing to do with earth

You seem dead set on stating that evolution can't be true, well let me ask you this, if god created adam and eve, then how do you get people that look chinese, russian, latino, arabic, black, white, redneck, etc? Evidently your idea is that animals do not change over generations, clearly that can't be true can it?

heh
I was talking about mind and only about mind
and no , I don't name these things you mentioned evoultion because if you took an arabic man and put him in canada , soon he will be like them
I name them 'adaptation' .
and this process is a proof itself of the existence of god , because god created us PERFECTLY and the perfection is only assumed to god!

but what happened to all life in the trillions of years before that time? And who came up with the idea that god killed the dinosaurs to leave room for mankind? If god didn't like the dinosaurs, then why did he create them in the first place?

again , this is indeed yet another proof of God's existence
God didn't kill dinosaurs , god made the earth suitable for Adam and Eve and humans in general , but the dinosaurs don't have that 'adaptation' you talked about so they died
(if god doesn't exist , then who some of the earth properties to make it suitable for humans and yet un-suitable for dinosaurs which were there already?)
I can actualy go more further but that's not the subject we are discussing and that will lead us nowhere
so let's get back to the subject , and when we are settled with that , we can discuss other issues like (who god is, what happened to all life in the trillions of years before that time? ...etc..........etc)

I'm here to discuss ONE thing
it's the question of God's existence

 

[Eddy]

wow, you sure exploded. Your opinion is biased. You are protecting your side, but you have not stated any facts. OUT OF 31 PAGES, NO FACTS,

 

[Eddy]

And yeah, i read the 31 pages. So dont try that. So tell me something, because i think the quoran is just a book, you are saying im stupid? So if its like that, i can call you stupid if you arent on my side, idealist.

God is just the human's conscience of good and bad. Every human differs in opinion of good and bad, wether its slight or huge. WHO CREATED GOD? like you said, all things have a creator. Your theory is backtracting, and faulty. Its a theory, because it hasnt been proven.

God is a figment of people's imagination. The need to believe there is something better than life now. Kind of like your comfortable chair thats always keeping you going. Nothing more than a conscience. Show me proof, and then ill believe. Until then, there are no great creator(S).

 

[sk8bloke22]

God is just the human's conscience of good and bad. Every human differs in opinion of good and bad, wether its slight or huge. WHO CREATED GOD? like you said, all things have a creator. Your theory is backtracting, and faulty. Its a theory, because it hasnt been proven. (S).

see my edit above, i posted before without typing a message :sleepy:

 

[sk8bloke22]

not true
We have no statement from God that he created earth in 6 days
God created the seven skies in 6 days and that have nothing to do with earth

wat about the living organisms made in the later days, and the seas as well as the skies. the to me sounds more than just skies, and more to do with the creation of the earth.

again , this is indeed yet another proof of God's existence
God didn't kill dinosaurs , god made the earth suitable for Adam and Eve and humans in general , but the dinosaurs don't have that 'adaptation' you talked about so they died
(if god doesn't exist , then who some of the earth properties to make it suitable for humans and yet un-suitable for dinosaurs which were there already?)
I can actualy go more further but that's not the subject we are discussing and that will lead us nowhere
so let's get back to the subject , and when we are settled with that , we can discuss other issues like (who god is, what happened to all life in the trillions of years before that time? ...etc..........etc)

that is seriously flawed. the atmosphere during the time of the dinosaurs would hav been very different, and theres nothing to say that it would have been a suitable environment for humans. according to evolution. for starters, there is no 100% fact explaining THE cause of the death of dinosaurs, hell, we didnt even know they existed until a few hundred years ago. and wat do u mean by 'the earth's properties fully suitable to humans'? if u mean biologically, in the sense that humans are able to breathe, live and exist in the earth's atmosphere, well the process of evolution would explain that through time creatures hav learnt to adapt to different environments, theres no proof suggesting that the earth was not suitable for dinosaurs...i mean they existed, therefore they breathed and were able to live on earth like other creatures. the fact is no one knows why dinosaurs became extinct, so u cant claim that the reason was becos the earth was 'unsuitable for them'.

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

God is just the human's conscience of good and bad. Every human differs in opinion of good and bad, wether its slight or huge. WHO CREATED GOD? like you said, all things have a creator. Your theory is backtracting, and faulty. Its a theory, because it hasnt been proven.

I'm sure you didn't read it because if you had read it you would have read my reply on that
THIS IS NOT MY THEORY , it's a very basic rule that can be applied to ANYTHING IN THIS UNIVERSE but you can't apply it to anything outside this universe because this rule was there based on things occured in OUR UNIVERSE , no one seems to be able to go out of the universe , can you?
if you can then this rule will be unusable there

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

because i think the quoran is just a book

off-topic :
can you explain why can you find on a very old book (as you like to call) things that only has been discovered lately and even things that still hasn't been discovered??

you are saying im stupid? So if its like that, i can call you stupid if you arent on my side, idealist.

still faking my words
I told you this depends on what YOU THINK
if you think you are stupid , these words are for you
is that very hard ??
and if you call me stupid , you are simply insulting me, because you don't know anything about myself to calim that

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

evil is very clear
I'm sure you didn't read it :
"Evil is everything that hurts you or any innocent directly or indirectly"
if you are doing evil , don't try to say "my point of view is this is good not evil, and every person has his own point of view on that"
no man , making evil doesn't make evil good
evil is evil , even if you do it yourself

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

wat about the living organisms made in the later days, and the seas as well as the skies. the to me sounds more than just skies, and more to do with the creation of the earth.

I was correcting you
I don't know how god created Earth , but someone (you?) said that God created earth in 6 days and I said that the 6 days issue is not earth related, the 6 days was to create the seven skies and that have nothing to do with earth

that is seriously flawed. the atmosphere during the time of the dinosaurs would hav been very different, and theres nothing to say that it would have been a suitable environment for humans. according to evolution. for starters, there is no 100% fact explaining THE cause of the death of dinosaurs, hell, we didnt even know they existed until a few hundred years ago. and wat do u mean by 'the earth's properties fully suitable to humans'? if u mean biologically, in the sense that humans are able to breathe, live and exist in the earth's atmosphere, well the process of evolution would explain that through time creatures hav learnt to adapt to different environments, theres no proof suggesting that the earth was not suitable for dinosaurs...i mean they existed, therefore they breathed and were able to live on earth like other creatures. the fact is no one knows why dinosaurs became extinct, so u cant claim that the reason was becos the earth was 'unsuitable for them'.

you didn't know of their existence maybe
but we -muslims- already knew that long time ago
we knew that earth was inhabited by some types of creatures and god created Adam to live in Earth , so God made earth suitable for humans (by changing some conditions that include weather, geographics , water ...etc........etc) and some of the creatures that was in Earth vanished (not only dinosaurs) not because god doesn't like dinosaurs but because God likes Adam more.
All these things I knew from Qur'an (but since you don't even believe in god , don't bother replying me on that and please GET BACK TO THE SUBJECT , I'm not discussing earth or dinosaurs I'm discussing the existence of God)

Your theory is backtracting, and faulty. Its a theory, because it hasnt been proven.

I'm not going to reply to that that again , I got stuck
read what I wrote , and you will know

Guys , I already got stuck , you wanted a proof (and you don't have a proof that god doesn't exist) and I GAVE LOTS OF PROOFS that God exists
but some people think that by saying (no , god doesn't exist , or it's only a theory or you didn't prove it) they will be free to do evil as they wish
but no MAKING EVIL DOESN'T MAKE EVIL GOOD , EVIL WILL BE EVIL EVEN IF YOU ARE DOING IT

Please leave this thread alone , if you are thinking that saying (there is no god) will permit you to do evil as you want
this thread is for people who REALLY are searching for the truth not for someone to tell them that they are good people and they can feel free to do sex and other evil things!

Now I knew that most of you knew that God EXISTS but trying to say things like (you can't prove) because if you said that God exists , you will have to stop doing evil and unfortunately you don't want to stop doing evil.

and if you think you are smart then think of that :
the universe is VERY VERY VERY PERFECTLY created (this cannot be done by accident and if it was , the accident point itself is unbelievable) and human beings themselves is PERFECTLY CREATED , this can only be accomplished by someone who is PERFECT

now stop all these things 32 pages is enough
if you want to do evil , do evil but don't say that god doesn't exist in the hope that you will not be punished (THAT WILL CHANGE NOTHING) so please stop that
again :
THIS IS ONLY FOR THOSE SEEKING THE TRUTH , IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SOME THREAD TO KILL TIME IN , THIS IS NOT FOR YOU

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

For those seeking the truth :
http://www.islamway.com/eng/html/search.php?query=&topic=48


if this didn't give you what you are looking for , you better believe in god by other ways like reading the Qur'an, Do so and judge yourself , you will see that it has lots of facts that you will be surprised to know , and at that point you will believe that this book was not written by a human
these are some quotes from the Qur'an with an explanation so you can follow it easily:

Islam & Science

The Relation between Islam and Science is very deep .. Many of the newly discovered facts in different sciences was mentioned clearly in the Qur'an 1400 years ago ! Just to prove that the Qur'an is the Book of Allah who is the Knowledge.

Please read more about this topic @ : Islam & Science Section
http://www.islamway.com/eng/html/search.php?query=&topic=47

look at some of the stories of people who got envolved in Islam lately :
19 years old Candadian girl looking for the truth :
http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=100

Cat Stevens : How I came to Islam :
http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=146

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

Scientific Accuracy of Qur'an Amazes U of T Professor

This message is based on an article titled “Highlights of Human embryology in the Qur’an and Haidth” by Dr.Keith Moore, Professor of Anatomy and Chairman of the Department, Faculty of Medicine, at the University of Toronto, 1982.



Dr. Moore points out that the study of how the human embryo develops in the mother’s womb could not progress significantly without the use of microscopes. Microscopes were not invented until the 17th century C.E., and were not used in this field of study until the 18th century. Therefore, when Dr. Moore studied certain statements in the Qur’an on this subject, he remarked, “ I was amazed at the scientific accuracy of these statements which were made in the 7th century C.E.,”

The Qur’an in 39:6 states that God made us in the wombs of our mothers in stages. Dr. Moore comments: “The realization that the embryo develops in stages in the uterus was not proposed until the1940’s, and the stages used nowadays were not adopted worldwide until the 19th century C.E.”

Furthermore, he says: “The idea that development results from a genetic plan contained in the chromosomes, of the zygote was not discovered until the end of the 19th century C.E. The verse from the Qur’an [80:18] clearly implies that the nutfa (i.e.
the initial drop of fluid) contains the plan or blueprint for the future characteristics and features of the developing human being.”

The Qur’an 23: 12-16 indicates that there is a lag or a gap between two of the early stages of growth. How does that compare with modern scientific knowledge? Remarkably! Says Dr. Moore: “It is well established that there is a lag or a delay in the development of
the embryo during the implantation… The agreement between the lag or gap in development mentioned in the Qur’an and the slow rate of change occurring during the second or third weeks is amazing. These details of human development were not described until about 40 years ago.”

Finally, Dr. Moore concludes by saying that the agreement he has found in the Qur’anic statements ‘may help to close the gap between science and religion which has existed for so many years.”

The above evidence shows that the Qur’an must be from God as it claims. The Qur’an says that you and every human being should consider this book with care: {Had it been from anyone other than God, you would have found much discrepancy in it} [Qur’an 4:82]

--------------------------------------------
from islamway.net
you can always check and see if this is right or just anothe lie , because Toronto University is a very trusted one

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

interested in the origins of Earth>

Professor Alfred Kroner, who is one of the world’s most famous geologists. He is a Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenburg University, Mainz, Germany studied and commented on several Qur'aanic verses and Ahadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

Professor Kroner said: "Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a bedouin. I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."



Professor Kroner chose an example from the Qur'aan which proved to him why the Qur'aan could not have come from Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) himself. The example which Professor Kroner chose is a description in the Qur'aan of the fact that this universe had its beginnings in one single entity. Allah, may He be Exalted and Glorified said: {Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together [ratqan], before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing… } [Qur'aan 21:30]


The meaning of [ratqan] in this verse, is that the heavens and the earth were stuck together or blended together, and that they were later separated from each other. Professor Kroner used this as an example to prove that no human being during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), could have known this.

Professor Kroner: "Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here."

Professor Kroner, so it seemed to us, has a special talent of being evasive. For example, we asked him to describe the geological conditions of Arabia. ‘Was Arabia full of orchards and rivers?’ He said: "During the Snow Age." And it is further known that the North Polar icebergs are slowly moving southwards. When those polar icebergs become relatively close to the Arabian Peninsula, the weather will change and Arabia will become one of the greenest and wettest parts of the world. We asked him: ‘Will Arabia become the land of orchards and rivers?’ He said: "Yes, it is a scientific fact."

This astonished us, and we wondered how he could state this as a scientific fact while it was related to the future and we asked: ‘Why?’ He said: "Because the new Snow Age has actually started. And we can see the snow crawling once again from the North Pole southwards. In fact, the polar snow is now on the way to get closer to the Arabian Peninsula. We can see the signs of this in the snow blizzards striking the northern parts of Europe and America every winter. Scientists have other signs and information proving the actual beginning of another Snow Age. It is a scientific fact."

So we said to him: ‘What you have just mentioned has only been known to scientists after a long series of discoveries and with the help of specialized instruments. But we have already found this mentioned by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) 1400 years ago. He said in a hadith transmitted in Saheeh Muslim: "The Last Hour will not come upon us until the lands of the Arabs are once again pasture lands and filled with rivers."

At this point we asked Professor Kroner: ‘Who told the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam), that the lands of the Arabs were once filled with orchards and rivers?’ He immediately replied: "The Romans." This reminded me of Professor Kroner’s evasive ability. We asked him another question, we said to him: ‘But who informed the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon hi), that the lands of the Arabs would once again become pasturelands and be filled with rivers?’. Professor Kroner becomes evasive if embarrassed. But whenever he was faced with the truth, he is courageous enough to state his opinion frankly and thus he replied: "This could have been known to him only through revelation from above."

Finally, after our discussions with him, he made the following comments: "If you combine all these and you combine all those statements that are being made in the Quran in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true. They can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way you can say that the Quran is a simple science text book for the simple man, and that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago."

Allah confirms in His Book that:
{This is no less than reminder to (all), the worlds. And you shall certainly know the truth of it all after a while} (Qur'aan 38:87-88)

Written by : Sh. AbdulMajid Az-Zindany, ( To read the whole book : http://www.it-is-truth.org )

 

[Mohammed Yousif]

Are you still thinking of Qur'an as an (old weared book) ?

check this to discover the miracle of Qur'an
http://www.islamway.com/eng/html/search.php?query=&topic=47

 

[Eddy]

old book, god doesnt exist, you cant change my mind, i respect your opinions and ideas, but you cannot try and change mine or say mine are invaluable. just stop.

 

[Eddy]

i mean, you said "for those who seek the truth", opinions not facts.

 

[Eddy]

i dislike religions because they limit the individual too much, i heard that women of islam cannot attend a gymnasium to work out. I couldnt believe that, why such restrictions? there are so many others i know.

 

[icepir8]

This thread just proves nobody really knows anything.

We all have our beliefs and faith. And for some this enough. For others they have to convince other people that they are right so that they can feel right themselves.

The flood story is found in almost all religions in some form.

And to say that Jewdism was the first religion as also a false statment.

I belive in my God. I belive that my God is fair. I belive my God doesn't condem you to hell because you belive differently then I do.

But I have no proof that the Bible or the Toran or the Book of Mormom or any of the other religious text are any more correct than any other.

BTW: what happend to the Gold tablets?
:innocent:

 

[AlphaWolf]

Yousif: The thing is you think all of these are facts but honestly they are only words written in a book.

Now, there may be some relavence behind the "facts" of the quran, theres no doubt behind that, but the thing as a whole can't be entirely true. (granted the quran is a hell of a lot more accurate than the bible in any of it's forms). But to think that all of them are "facts" is way off.

I can't state too many good examples as I haven't read nearly as much of the qur'an as the bible, (so you will probably easily beat me in any argument against what the qur'an actualy says, because I don't know enough to prove otherwise) mainly because of the language barrier. Those verses are very roughly translated to better keep the origional interpretation intact, which is a good thing, but I couldn't read much of it because of that.

However I can say this much, the qur'an does support slavery, (including a male having sex with his unmarried female slave) it supports the idea that women are born unequal to men, and does support war in the name of allah. Based on your definition of what is evil, that should definitely fall in that category.

Also again I ask, if adam and eve were the sole beginners of the human race, and humans, nor any other animal, can evolve, then how do you explain the example of the changes in the chilian natives? To believe entirely in the creationist theory, you would have to believe that no offspring can change over generations beyond its parents appearance, the offspring will always be a combonation of how their parents look, and not have a single variation. That said, you either ONLY have black people, or ONLY have white people, there will be no in between.

Yes I know this doesnt prove or disprove the existence of god, but your trying to state things that are facts to support your belief, but simply put they are not facts, rather theories by whoever wrote the qur'an (and it wasn't mohammud, he was illiterate).

 

[AlphaWolf]

I belive my God doesn't condem you to hell because you belive differently then I do.

Well put, everytime I come across missionaries who try to tell me that I'm going to hell for not believing in jesus, I always have to remind them of just that, which their books state several times.

Usualy it gets them to go away fortunately