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Interesting debate on existance of god, worth a read 2

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DuDe

Emu64 Staff
AlphaWolf said:

Another one being that if you or somebody else makes claims or discoveries contrary to what the church teaches, then you/they are being influenced by satan, in order to get you to do his bad work. Both great ways of making somebody hold on to the faith.


That isn`t written in the bible. That`s an interpretation made by the church at the medieval ages, probably something that has to do with "though shall not have other god but me", or whatever. Anyway, every religion in the world has its can of worms, no one is innocent here.
And once and for all, the Torah is not the old testament, those are merely 5 books of it. The old testament as a whole is the entire jewish bible. The christian bible is the old and new testament.
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
DuDe_ said:

That isn`t written in the bible. That`s an interpretation made by the church at the medieval ages, probably something that has to do with "though shall not have other god but me", or whatever.


Of course! I said "contrary to what the curch teaches", not "contrary to what the texts say". :D

DuDe_ said:

And once and for all, the Torah is not the old testament, those are merely 5 books of it. The old testament as a whole is the entire jewish bible. The christian bible is the old and new testament.

And my key words were "based on the torah", which all of the listed religions are. :cool:

Its amazing how much you can prove after you have read the thing :satisfied
 
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RPGlover12

RPGlover12

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maybe ur right that everything should have a creator except god then why does the earth doesn't have a creator as god came also well if there isn't a creator, but still if u saw a guy in the woods when he was raised without a religion u'll found that he will say that there must be one true god but he wont find it anywhere untill a book or something came to him or a massenger etc........ u'll find that he will believe in only one god and i want to ask u jewish guys a question
what do u believe in ur god
what is his name
what is his powers
all info plz
 

Tri-Force

Philosopher Warrior
it's not fail safe first of all because many people convert and change their religion. and just one more time to let everyone know. . .
I considder myself Christian because Christianity is a very broad belief but i am by no means a member of anyreligion because of exactly what you guys say. a lot of religons try to make others seem wrong and "bad" when i believe anyone who truly believes and is trying to do the right thing is going to Heaven. this is why I have not fallen to what you call the "FailSafe" griphold you seem to think religion has on people. so if your problem is religon dont let that stop you from believeing in God. i have seen this happen very often and heard of it happening even more often where people dont like what a religon is doing so they pull away from the belief of God all togather. true a Religion can be corrupt but if you gather your own beliefs they can never be corrupt as long as you are really trying to find truth. and when you find truth within yourself then dont let anyone tell you that you're wrong. I haven't.
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
Tri-Force: no failsafe is unbreakable, in fact with every person out there, given the right ammount of time, persuasion can happen eventualy. Even people who all their lives have not believed in religion have ended up following one in their late years.

RPGLover12: No offense but I don't know where you are getting that from. Take the native american indians for example, they had no exposure to "god" until the 1500s when the first europeans started settling the newly discovered continents. Before that time, they were mainly polythiestic, however some of the smaller tribes had religious beliefs that didn't revolve around a god, rather instead were a set of superstitions. Their first contact with "God" was believe in him, or be killed by the Europeans. Quick and effective way to convert poeple, wouldn't you agree?

A note to add to that, fear of death is the key driving force behind the belief in a religion. Everybody is overly concerned about what happens in the afterlife. (not that thats necessarily a bad thing)
 
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plus a belief in god is a very "nice" thing to have, but in all honestly i truley believe its holding on to something for the sake of it making you feel better. The mere fact that we have religions prooves the human psyche wants to do that. Eveery society in history has had its own version of religion... even though there is still no evidence to support the creationalist theory!!!!
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
Quite honestly I can't confirm to myself that the earth is round, the sun is the center, and that man evolved. I have never been in space, have any of you? On that same note, no religious person can confirm that there is a god. Has he seen god? Has he met moses/Mohammed/Jesus? (subconscious experiences don't count, if I wanted to make you see elvis back from the dead it could be just a whack on the head away) What if everybody is lieing to us and we are realy trapped in the matrix :D?

Rediculous as it seems though, when I try to look for the answer I look at all theories, and follow whichever one looks more concrete.

An example in place, somebody mentioned how the Qur'an states that burial began with a crow teaching Qabil (Cain) to bury his brother. I prefer to follow the theory that burial comes from a primal instinct. If you bury the body, you mask the smell to keep away predators, and you reduce the exposure to diseases.

This is confirmed by the fact that Neanderthal was found to use the same technique, did god also send a crow to teach neanderthal? (Better yet, why is there no mention of neanderthall in human history until 1856 when the first skeleton was discovered? Or even the dinosaur? Didn't the entire creation of the earth happen in only seven days? Wasn't man created on the 6th day? How so when dinosaurs died aeons before?)
 
one word maths... the very basis of logic, if you can proove something with pure maths (like the world being round) then for me you've got something concrete... add to that te fact that the sun "rises and sets", on a flat earth would that happen?it would just kinda be ooo look light, and then BAM gone later on, midday would last for hours and sun dials wouldnt work... there you got something which i can say is justifiable evidence... question the relaity all you like... but personally i think thats childish, any argument can be countered with "yes but we might not be real". If you're going to examine whats around you, then it might just be an idea as to accept it as reality
 

Tri-Force

Philosopher Warrior
i believe that due to inbreading it looks like we evolved. who did Adam and Eves children marry? eachother. and we all know what happens when that happens. charactoristics are exagerated. over time as the blood line thined and familys moved and took on new looks we began to look more "human" as we know humans to look today. anyway. this is something that i came up with on my own and a religion didn't force this thought into my brainwashed head.

side note ,hokd on fonix werked four mi
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
Well I guess I would otherwise agree, except from what I was told, inbreeding just causes miscelaneous bad recessive genes (which everybody has some) to become dominant. Any genetic changes would remain perminant, unless there is enough cross breeding with those who do not have any of these bad genes. If everybody is from the same two sexualy reproducing organisms, then we would all still cary whatever changes happened. (Unless of course natural selection set in and those with bad enough genes never survived, but if thats true, then the early generations wouldn't have survived, and we wouldn't be here today.)

Also if your bringing that up in reference to the neanderthal, DNA samples have shown that they were a different species, and no human being has been found to share any genes with them. (I don't know the exact figures, but Orangutangs have somewhere around a .2% difference in DNA structure from humans, where neanderthal has about a .05% difference. It's believed that humans and neanderthals were not capable of cross breeding.)

BTW: If you dont believe natural selection (which most creationists don't exactly dispute), household pets are a perfect example of it being true with the various breeds that don't exist in the wild (nor ever have).
 
or ever could... i mean do you think a kind hearted friendly human loving labrador would survive in the wild against rotweilers etc? and one thing that really baffles me is how can anyone ever even contemplate the existance of adam and eve being real? i presume they just chose to write down their adventures? or maybe their story was passed down through thousands of years before writing was invented un-tarnished?

yeah right, so i guess maybe god just decided to tell a prophet about this? i mean thats where most of this religious stuff seems to come from... some prophet has been "told by god", and yet somehow the validity is only ever questioned by people brandished nay sayers and none believers *scratches head*... i mean really its like me saying "pssst, god told me the world ends in 3 days, all the commandments are now null and void", i then start preeching this and presto im a qualified prophet! don't need any other qualifications as far as i can tell... other than my coming being "prophesiesed" by another prophet... there is something decidedley fishy here, take the nose plugs off people!
 

Tri-Force

Philosopher Warrior
i'ts fishy to you becasue your mind is closed. enough said there. I'm having a relly bad day so I dont know why i'm even looking at this thread were people are telling me all that i believe is crap and stupid. Get a life. find someting better to do with your time than tell people who believe in God that there isn't a God. do you see how pointless THAT is. even more pointless than you say believing in God is.
 
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RPGlover12

RPGlover12

New member
hey i got something for u guys u say that god came with no reason so that the universe could come without a reason why can't both come without a reason :D no really if god what is trubeling u that he couldn't come wihtout a reason convince ur self that the universe came without a reason and god also the same way , see its simple
 

AlphaWolf

I prey, not pray.
Likewise when you tell a kid theres no santa clause, your telling him that what he believed in most of his life was a bunch of crap....Always difficulty in letting go of a lifelong belief, if it's ever let go of. (applies to anybody, religious or not)

As long as there are missionaries or athiests who try to get others to believe what they believe and do what they do, there will always be people to disagree.

Heres something I know we all can agree on. In a long time from now, one of two things will happen; either an apocolypse will happen as most prophets often predict, and the existence of god will be proven, or, one day a scientific breakthrough occurs and man reaches the epiphany that there is no unified creator. In either case, at least a shadow of doubt will remain on both sides after whatever the event.

EDIT:

RPGLover: yep, neither religion nor science can explain everything. The answer is: We don't have the answers yet! Example: go back 200 years and ask "How would man ever fly?" Some people would tell you its downright impossible, yet here we are today where some people like to fly into buildings.
 
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nnotice nowhere did i tell you its stupid to believe, i simply point out my views which is what giving your views is all aboutis it not? i see the fact that youre so defensive of yours and you claim my mind to be closed because they dont follow yours being an ode to your own closed mind. some people look at the facts rather than assuming anyone who questions something is closed minded (which i find hypocritical to say the least)
 

Tri-Force

Philosopher Warrior
did you read the whole thread there Sy. NO. i was having a really really really really really really bad day. (death in the family) everything i said there wasn't for arguements sake it was for ventings sake. what i would really say is this. do you have a hard time believing that Julius Cesar was a Roman Emperor. or that there was a man named Henry VIII? im sure you don't even though all you know about them is what you have read and from storys passed down. so why then is it so hard for people to fathom the exsistance of Adam and Eve?
 
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RPGlover12

RPGlover12

New member
hey dont argue with athiests tri-force i just give them suggestions cause athiests rarely go into religion especially christianity if we see the percentege of christians we will see that most christians became an athiest after studying the bible good well toooo many most of the athiests i know are like this got away from their religion because they found faults in it but some athiest christians when they want to come back to thier god they found their self away again from believing in god i excpect that raznor was like that and many athiests christians when they want to return to god they give islam a try and they find thier selves musliims . well the guidness as we believe come only from god himself and i believe athiests believe that guidness come from their selves well believe what u want
 
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RPGlover12

RPGlover12

New member
hey i found a good article for u athiests guys



is there a god


Consider this : An archaeologist digs deep into the desert sand and finds a piece of an old clay pot. After his investigations, this archaeologist can tell us, from this little old piece of dusty clay, so much about the civilisation that existed thousands of years ago that produced it; he can tell usabout the types of ovens, temperatues, and dyes that they worked with, the raw materials that they used, and thus assess the level of their artistic skill and technological ability, etc. All this from a small piece of clay lying in the desert.

Did this archaeologist ever see the civilisation that produced this pot ?

How does he know that it ever existed ?

He knows because he saw that the piece of clay was produced by someone who designed it, and shaped it, and had the intelligence to be able to heat it and produce the pot, and not only that, they also had the ability to colour it and make it look beautiful.
Design ==> Designer.

To the archaeologist the existence and intricacy of the piece of pottery is conclusive proof of the existence, intelligence and ability of the people who made it.

Look around you : at the beautiful sunset on a summer evening, at the moon and the stars on a cloudless night, at the water that you drink, at the trees and how they grow from tiny seeds. Think about yourself : your eyes with which you see, your ears with which you hear, your tongues with which you taste and talk, your hands and your feet, your heart and your brain.Consider how these things are so complex in themselves and yet work together in such perfect harmony.

From the movement of the galaxies to the complexities of the interaction of molecules, from the dynamics of eco-systems to the intricacies of DNA, all lead to the obvious fact of the existence of the great Wisdom, Knowledge and Power that allows our Universe to exist and function.

To any perceptive person the existence and intricacy of creation is conclusive proof of the Existence, Knowledge and Wisdom of the One who creates, organises and sustains it.

Most people naturally recognise the existence of the Creator, and we find reference to the Creator in all cultures and religions. Even the atheists, communists and (disbelieving) scientists cannot avoid this reality, but avoid the term 'creator', for phrases like 'Mother Nature' and 'the amazing way nature has designed...'

How strange in the face of this, that many today reject the belief in the existence of the Creator. Perhaps this is due more to fashion and the desire to justify a materialistic attitude to life rather than real observation and comprehension of reality.

Something stranger still, and perhaps another reason for the trend to deny the Creator, are those who claim that a man, or men, who walked on the earth, breathed air, who had bodies and souls subject to the Laws of the Universe, are the Creator, or manifestations of the Self-Subsistent One. This is of course a complete contradiction in terms. Something cannot be the Creator and created
at the same time, needing air, food and drink and being self-sufficient, being temporary and eternal!

If you are one of those who believe that a amn such as Buddha, or Krishna, or Jesus is the Creator and Controller, then think again!

We were created from a drop of despised fluid, in which was a microscopic sperm, which fertilised a microscopic egg and we grew in our mother's womb in stages predetermined, overwhich we had no control. We came from our mother's womb, urinating and defecating, needing constant attention and care. Without food we will die, without air we will die ... and then such a one is God?

Indeed any intelligent person would recognise exactly how dependant life, the universe and everything is on its Creator. Our dire need for His help makes itself plain in times of great distress.

Imagine yourself in an aeroplane and you know it is going to crash...

Who do you turn to for help then ?

Or on a ship in the sea, thrown helplessly up and down by towering waves ...

There will have been a situation at one time or the other in your life when you called upon your Creator alone, forgetting everyone and everything else, hoping, trusting, wishing that the Being you know in your heart and soul that has power and control over all things would help you. The only One you know can save you!

O creature of God, contemplate upon these verses:

" Behold! In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth; In the alternation of the night and day; In the sailing of the ships through the Oceans for the profit of mankind; In therain which God sends down from the skies, and the life that He therewith to an earth that is dead; In the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the Earth; In the change of thewinds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth - Indeed these are signs for a people that are wise."
[The Qur'aan 2:164]

"It is He who has made the sun a shining glory and the moon a light of beauty and has measured out their stages, that you might know the number of years and their reckoning.Allaah did not create this but in Truth. He explains His signs in detail for people who understand.
[The Qur'aan 10:5]

"He has created the heavens and the earth with Truth. Far is He above having the
partners that they ascribe to him. He has created mankind from a sperm drop; and behold this (same) man becomes an open disputer! And the cattle, He has created them for you; in them is warmth (warm clothing) and numerous benefits, and of them you eat."
[The Qur'aan 16:3-5]

"Blessed be He who sent down the Criterion to His servant that it may be an admonition to all creatures.
To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; no son has he begotten, nor has He any partner in His dominion; It is He who created all things and gave them theirdue proportions. Yet they have taken besides Him gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor do they control life nor death nor Resurrection."
[The Qur'aan 25:1-3]

"Were they created by nothing or did they create themselves?Or did they create the heavens and the earth? No, they have no firm belief."
[The Qur'aan 52:36]

"He it is who enables you to travel through land and sea, until, when you are in the ships and they sail with a favourable wind and you are glad about that. Then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to you from all sides and when you think that you are encircled by them, you call upon God making your faith pure for Him alone saying :'If You deliver us from this we shall truly be grateful.' But when He delivers you, behold! you rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind, your rebellion against God is only against your own selves - a brief enjoyment of this wordly life, then in the end unto Us is your return We shall inform you of that which you used to do."
[The Qur'aan 10:22-23]


i will copy all others too
 
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RPGlover12

RPGlover12

New member
here is another one



Do you believe that evolution is true?



If so, then provide an answer to the following questions. "Evolution" in this context is the idea that natural, undirected processes are sufficient to account for the existence of all natural things.

1. Something from nothing?



The "Big Bang", the most widely accepted theory of the beginning of the universe, states that everything developed from a small dense cloud of subatomic particles and radiation which exploded, forming hydrogen (and some helium) gas. Where did this energy/matter come from? How reasonable is it to assume it came into being from nothing? And even if it did come into being, what would cause it to explode? We know from common experience that explosions are destructive and lead to disorder.How reasonable is it to assume that a "big bang" explosion produced the opposite effect - increasing "information", order and the formation of useful structures, such as stars andplanets, and eventually people?
2. Physical laws an accident?
We know the universe is governed by several fundamental physical laws, such as electromagnetic forces, gravity, conservation of mass and energy, etc. The activities of our universe depend upon these principles like a computer program depends upon the existenceof computer hardware with an instruction set. How reasonable is it to say that these great controlling principles developed by accident?
3. Order from disorder?
The Second Law of Thermodynamics may be the most verified law of science. It states that systems become more disordered over time, unless energy is supplied and directed to create order. Evolutionists says that the opposite has taken place - that order increased over time, without any directed energy. How can this be?
ASIDE: Evolutionists commonly object that the Second Law applies to closed, or isolated systems, and that the Earth is certainly not a closed system (it gets lots of raw energy from the Sun, for example). However, all systems, whether open or closed, tend to deteriorate. For example, living organisms are open systems but they all decay and die. Also, theuniverse in total is a closed system. To say that the chaos of the big bang has transformed itself into the human brain with its 120 trillion connections is a clear violation of the SecondLaw.
We should also point out that the availability of raw energy to a system is a necessary but far from sufficient condition for a local decrease in entropy to occur. Certainly theapplication of a blow torch to bicycle parts will not result in a bicycle being assembled - only the careful application of directed energy will, such as from the hands of a person following a plan. The presence of energy from the Sun does NOT solve the evolutionist'sproblem of how increasing order could occur on the Earth, contrary to the Second Law.
4. Information from Randomness?

Information theory states that "information" never arises out of randomness or chance events. Our human experience verifies this every day. How can the origin of the tremendousincrease in information from simple organisms up to man be accounted for? Information is always introduced from the outside. It is impossible for natural processes to produce theirown actual information, or meaning, which is what evolutionists claim has happened. Random typing might produce the string "dog", but it only means something to an intelligent observer who has applied a definition to this sequence of letters. The generation of information always requires intelligence, yet evolution claims that no intelligence was involved in the ultimate formation of a human being whose many systems contain vast amounts of information.
5. Life from dead chemicals?
Evolutionists claim that life formed from non-life (dead chemicals), so-called "abiogenesis", even though it is a biological law ("biogenesis") that life only comes from life. The probability of the simplest imaginable replicating system forming by itself from non-living chemicals has been calculated to be so very small as to be essentially zero - much less than one chance in the number of electron-sized particles that could fit in the entire visible universe! Given these odds, is it reasonable to believe that life formed itself?
6. Complex DNA and RNA by chance?
The continued existence (the reproduction) of a cell requires both DNA (the "plan") and RNA (the "copy mechanism"), both of which are tremendously complex. How reasonable is it to believe that these two co-dependent necessities came into existence by chance at exactly the same time?
7. Life is complex.
We know and appreciate the tremendous amount of intelligent design and planning that went into landing a man on the moon. Yet the complexity of this task pales in comparison to the complexity of even the simplest life form. How reasonable is it to believe that purely natural processes, with no designer, no intelligence, and no plan, produced a human being.
8. Where are the transitional fossils?
If evolution has taken place our museums should be overflowing with the skeletons of countless transitional forms. Yet after over one hundred years of intense searching only asmall number of transitional candidates are touted as proof of evolution. If evolution has really taken place, where are the transitional forms? And why does the fossil record actuallyshow all species first appearing fully formed, with most nearly identical to current instances of the species?
ASIDE: Most of the examples touted by evolutionists concentrate on just one feature of the anatomy, like a particular bone or the skull. A true transitional fossil should be intermediatein many if not all aspects. The next time someone shows you how this bone changed over time, ask them about the rest of the creature too!
Many evolutionists still like to believe in the "scarcity" of the fossil record. Yet simple statistics will show that given you have found a number of fossil instances of a creature, thechances that you have missed every one of its imagined predecessors is very small. Consider the trilobites for example. These fossils are so common you can buy one for under $20, yet no fossils of a predecessor have been found!
9. Could an intermediate even survive?

Evolution requires the transition from one kind to another to be gradual. And don't forget that "natural selection" is supposed to retain those individuals which have developed an advantage of some sort. How could an animal intermediate between one kind and another even survive (and why would it ever be selected for), when it would not be well-suited toeither its old environment or its new environment? Can you even imagine a possible sequence of small changes which takes a creature from one kind to another, all the while keeping it not only alive, but improved?
ASIDE: Certainly a "light-sensitive spot" is better than no vision at all. But why would such a spot even develop? (evolutionists like to take this for granted). And even if it did develop, to believe that mutations of such a spot eventually brought about the tremendous complexities of the human eye strains all common sense and experience.

10. Reproduction without reproduction?
A main tenet of evolution is the idea that things develop by an (unguided) series of small changes, caused by mutations, which are "selected" for, keeping the "better" changes" over a very long period of time. How could the ability to reproduce evolve, without the ability to reproduce? Can you even imagine a theoretical scenario which would allow this tohappen? And why would evolution produce two sexes, many times over? Asexual reproduction would seem to be more likely and efficient!
ASIDE: To relegate the question of reproduction to "abiogenesis" does NOT address the problem. To assume existing, reproducing life for the principles of evolution to work on is aHUGE assumption which is seldom focused on in popular discussions.

11. Plants without photosynthesis?
The process of photosynthesis in plants is very complex. How could the first plant survive unless it already possessed this remarkable capability?
12. How do you explain symbiotic relationships?
There are many examples of plants and animals which have a "symbiotic" relationship (they need each other to survive). How can evolution explain this?
13.It's no good unless it's complete.
We know from everyday experience that an item is not generally useful until it is complete, whether it be a car, a cake, or a computer program. Why would natural selection start to make an eye, or an ear, or a wing (or anything else) when this item would not benefit the animal until it was completed?
ASIDE: Note that even a "light-sensitive spot" or the simplest version of any feature is far from a "one-jump" change that is trivial to produce.

14. Explain metamorphosis!
How can evolution explain the metamorphosis of the butterfly? Once the caterpillar evolves into the "mass of jelly" (out of which the butterfly comes), wouldn't it appear to be "stuck"?
15. It should be easy to show evolution.
If evolution is the grand mechanism that has produced all natural things from a simple gas, surely this mechanism must be easily seen. It should be possible to prove its existence in a matter of weeks or days, if not hours. Yet scientists have been bombarding countless generations of fruit flies with radiation for several decades in order to show evolution in action and still have only produced ... more (deformed) fruit flies. How reasonable is it to believe that evolution is a fact when even the simplest of experiments has not been able to document it?
ASIDE: The artificial creation of a new species is far too small of a change to prove that true "macro-evolution" is possible. A higher-order change, where the information contentof the organism has been increased should be showable and is not. Developing a new species changes the existing information, but does not add new information, such as would be needed for a new organ, for example.
16. Complex things require intelligent design folks!
People are intelligent. If a team of engineers were to one day design a robot which could cross all types of terrain, could dig large holes, could carry several times its weight, found its own energy sources, could make more robots like itself, and was only 1/8 of an inch tall, we would marvel at this achievement. All of our life's experiences lead us to know that such a robot could never come about by accident, or assemble itself by chance, even if all of the parts were available laying next to each other. And we are certain beyond doubt that a canister of hydrogen gas, not matter how long we left it there or what type of raw energy we might apply to it, would never result in such a robot being produced. But we already have such a "robot" - it is called an "ant", and we squash them because they are "nothing" compared to people. And God made them, and he made us. Can there be any other explanation?

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well i will be still copying more :D
 

2fast4u

New member
just this one: "Something from nothing?" -- i'm sorry, but god ain't more than nothing as well. if u believe in god, god is an invisible power just like gravity for example.
 
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