boycott intel?

[Jabo]

Just a small note for those who haven't followed this. Microsoft's new security features were announced at a conference both Intel and AMD had representatives attending a while ago, so everyone is supporting this, but according to what I read in this thread Intel seemed to announce actual products prior to AMD?, which I can't explain other than market competition, or maybe AMD wanted to see how Intel managed it, which is a smart move.

I dont think thats entirely correct Jabo. With the current information that has been given the OS could completely prevent you from even using WinAmp unless WinAmp was registered with Microsoft. So basically PJ64 would cease to operate cause the OS wouldnt let it run unless you payed M$ to register it, and then they have to allow it so if they think emulation is illegal then your screwed.

Well I didn't say anything about how microsoft is going to implement it in that post, like whether it could prevent apps from working, so I can't really reply to that, but the conference did take place, and those companies were there, I was just pointing out this isn't an Intel-only thing, which this thread was saying earlier

but onto a few more details ...

My understanding was this is a service microsoft will offer developers and partners through a registration, to secure their products and services under the windows platforms from tampering etc, which to me just says they are trying to make piracy a lot harder and windows more friendly to commercial needs. I don't think this means that every piece of software will have to run through them to make sure it's not possible to pirate things with it. But I would expect any vendor who has a vested interest in no one pirating their product, or using it to pirate other products, will be using this.. For instance, probably windows media player will have this support for music and videos.

 

[sytaylor]

From the very start its going to be Microsoft office et al that come out in palladium compatible form... from what i read in pc format m$'s next operating system will operate a dual environment. The "secure" palladin one, which will not allow files to be accessed without palladin securities, and only allow palladin software to be installed, and an environment outside palladin which acts as a normal pc (with microsofts grubby mitts all over it).

3rd party software will not work within palladin and palladin will not work ouside 3rd party. So it seems glaringly stark to me that everyone who already has a pc (and a little bit of sense) will stick with what they have for a short while and use existing non-palladin software and 3rd party software (such as winamp).

I struggle to see how microsoft could enforce the software installation side of palladin, although as a sort of encryption format it would be quite sucessful.

Its very up in the air right now, but my hope is that microsoft realise what a pain in the ass the whole world is gonna be when they try and force this on everyone. Im pretty certain only those who buy computers from the rip off OEM's out there will end up with palladin anyways. To be honest i don't think this is something microsoft really want, time will tell, i just hope there are enough people with enough sense out there to limit its sucess.

Interesting side note too, AMD staying back could have something to do with their closer connection to the enthusiast side of the market. Just a thought

 

[adi]

well honestly if this stops the widespread piracy of music (people with 5gigs of mp3s on kazaa ?) then i dont really see much need for concern unless you're a cheap bastard. as for the controlling of hardware and software however, thats totally wrong and something needs be changed in that aspect of the palladium venture.

 

[vampireuk]

well honestly if this stops the widespread piracy of music (people with 5gigs of mp3s on kazaa ?) then i dont really see much need for concern unless you're a cheap bastard.

and what about us who download music to sample albums and find new artists? lain2:

 

[AlphaWolf]

Just a small note for those who haven't followed this. Microsoft's new security features were announced at a conference both Intel and AMD had representatives attending a while ago, so everyone is supporting this, but according to what I read in this thread Intel seemed to announce actual products prior to AMD?, which I can't explain other than market competition, or maybe AMD wanted to see how Intel managed it, which is a smart move.

I dont think thats entirely correct Jabo. With the current information that has been given the OS could completely prevent you from even using WinAmp unless WinAmp was registered with Microsoft. So basically PJ64 would cease to operate cause the OS wouldnt let it run unless you payed M$ to register it, and then they have to allow it so if they think emulation is illegal then your screwed.

Thats another good point, freeware as we know it could very well cease to exist. Software prices in general could rise as a result of this from lack of free alternatives, as well as the cost of developers getting their software signed by microsoft (or worse, microsoft could refuse to sign competing software).

If palladium could allow freeware to exist, then its anti-piracy measures will be quite honestly useless (because how the hell is the hardware or OS supposed to tell the difference between freeware and unsigned software?). Renewable smart card technology would be a far better, cheaper, and easier to impliment method for anti-piracy than palladium could ever dream to be, so I realy consider it a non-issue myself.

 

[Eagle]

(or worse, microsoft could refuse to sign competing software).
[/B]

Thats exactly why I think this will end up in lawsuits 100 times that of the netscape trial. Effectively, M$ could eliminate many opposing companies like Corel, Netscape, and Borland and even eliminate Freeware threats such as WinAmp and Linux. Nothing would be safe anymore. I wouldnt even be able to write my own program with Microsoft Vis Studio and run it on my own computer without Microshit's approval. Its utterly ridiculous.

 

[adi]

fair enough vampireuk if you use it for sampling and discovering new artists but you're in the minority of people who download mp3s. my statement was based on bands who give up making music because they can't get decent publicity because of lack of funds because of piracy etc. i've seen this happen in my local music scene and its disheartening to see talent go to waste. its alright to quote a case like fugazi but theres a very small number of bands like them willing to do it just for the music. look at your music collection, look at greatest band lists, indeed 90% of my favourite bands come from major labels. i dont know if this is any way linked but my suspicion is that musics gotten generally shitter over the past few years because the majors arent willing to take any more risks with bands they sign. looks like it'll be another nu-metal summer next year (sigh)

 

[sytaylor]

my god you eat that crap? that music downloads kill bands? nah uh mr, record companies have in mind what they want us to hear and market it like nuts. Its a fact that people who download more mp3s, buy more cd's!

http://www.bricklin.com/recordsales.htm

check out that link if you have time, read it all, truthfully and curse the day you ever bought that mobile phone

 

[AlphaWolf]

Quite honestly I never had any interest in music whatsoever until the post MP3 era.

 

[gokuss4]

alphawolf i agree although i still liked music before than, i like it a lot more now. anyways shouldn't this be in the techtalk forum?

 

[sytaylor]

no, since its a discussion about the palladium, its consequences and how the RIAA pretty much stand to get their way from it

 

[Stezo2k]

Quite honestly I never had any interest in music whatsoever until the post MP3 era.

same here, especially trance music, i used to always use audio galaxy to trade mp3s, and join trance groups to always get the most best trance tunes, it was gr8, too bad it was shut down

too much is going to be done to controll piracy (new windows blocking it, new intel chips blocking it, ISPs blocking P2ps)
we need to fight back

Stez

 

[RatTrap]

hehe.. i see alot of confused ppl in here..

what is the internet?.. it's not what it was in the beginning.. what has it become?.. a market.. does it cost anything?.. it costs a whole lot.. just ask Martin .. you guys heard of the dot.com crash?.. you guys know what's going on in IT-companies worldwide?.. to me.. the new palladin system feels good and bad.. you have the downside of not being able to warez as much stuff as you could before.. but.. they are allowing freeware.. only in a diferent form.. it's still going to be free though.. and you will still get to hear music you download.. but for a limited amount of times or maybe not all of it.. and so.. the internet will become a much broader market place.. wich in my case will just be better.. more jobs.. more money.. and at the same time.. the prices you believe will go up.. will go down.. the prices HAVE gonne up.. because of piracy.. not because of the $$value going down or anything like that.. it's because of piracy.. ppl working making PC games.. have much lower salaries then ppl making Console games.. because piracy really does do alot of damage.. how ever you may put it.. out of 1 miljon ppl who download a game and like it.. 10% go and buy it.. and usually 50% of those could have bought the game.. and on top of that.. it's never just 1 miljon.. it's usually a whole lot more.. music is an even sadder story.. and the BS about it making ppl buy CD's is sadly not entirelly acurate.. i'm not on the RIAA's side eather.. but i do believe that the way things are now.. isn't the way it's supposed to be.. ppl are stealing.. and to me i find that wrong.. and how ever much you can say it's not wrong because of this or that.. wrong is wrong.. and that's how it is..

on the other hand.. palladin isn't anything new.. the system has had other names.. been pland.. and thought about for many years now.. microsoft are trying to actually make companies earn what they are supposed to earn from their products.. and i doubt they'll succeed.. but at least it's a semi noble cause.. even though they'll get alot from this move themselfs.. and AMD and inTel have allways been in on idea about a secure internet.. they have SO much to win on this..

and as i see it.. the plan is very simple.. divide the internet.. the illegal part of it can go on doing things their way.. knowing what they do is illegal.. and will be alot easier for a judge in a court of law to say it is illegal.. and then you have the secure internet.. where you can do the same things as before.. but here everything is legal.. and you are limited to your credit.. but also.. you get to do alot of things for free.. see alot of things for free.. download alot of things for free.. only it comes with comercials etc.. since companies feel ok with it since they are earning money from it.. they can put more money into it.. just like with your tv ..

problem is.. in the end.. that type of internet might become a bloatnet hehe.. too many ppl trying to sell you something.. and since they know the system is secure.. they'll put a whole lot more money into getting your attention.. they'll probably start giving even physicall things away (and i mean caps or t-shirts and stuff like that.. not what you where thinking you sicko )..

 

[AlphaWolf]

My major concerns on that are:

- Nobody has any business knowing what content we use, how often we use it, or how we use it.
- Nobody has any business charging us more than once to use that content which we have already paid for where using it further bears no burden on their part (IE costs them nothing for me to play an MP3 each time).
- Nobody has any business telling us what we can and can't do with that content, provided we stay within the range of legal fair use. (microsoft already aims to remove your fair use rights through license agreements)

 

[adi]

ok fine get your music for free if you want, its just my opinion that bands should be rewarded for the work they do. ifyou don't class music as being worthy enough for spending an amount which is honestly not that much if you look around on the net, then thats your problem. some of the albums i own, i would gladly have payed three times as much for, it just depends on how you value it. also i enjoy reading the cd booklets, superficial i know, but some are pretty damn cool.

 

[Eagle]

I agree with the whole piracy and companies wanting to get paid for what they make thing, but this is the wrong way to do it. Whats on our computer is private and I dont want Microsoft to be able to know what I have on it warez or not.

Oh, and you guys realize this will eliminate emulation if it gains popularity right? I'm not talking about emulation of systems like NGC, PS2, XBox, GBA, etc. I'm talking about all emulation including systems that have been dead for ages like NES, SNES, SEGA, Atari, and others as well. Unless every game company that made a game for the system in question comes out and says its ok and the console company explixitly says the emulation is ok then Microsoft will surely consider this illegal. Since emulators can emulate almost every game for the desired system and there is no way to allow one game and prevent the other, then the only way to prevent "piracy" is to disable the emulator completely. And since Microsoft will be the new replacement for the Supreme Court and Parliament and every other governments legal decision makers, they will be able to do so.

 

[RatTrap]

1.. they won't be checking what you have and reporting it to someone else (like the RIAA).. what they will do is simply not let you run it..

2.. you can turn of palladin.. and you can run whatever you want.. but while it's turnd off you won't be able to comunicate with the "white"-internet.. only the grey and black internet..

3.. you can chose not to ever install paladin products.. intels plans are to both release processors with and without drm.. so is amd..

this won't kill anything.. like i said.. you'll get to chose.. from what side you wanna be on.. they are simply drawing the line.. it don't mean you have to cross it.. but depending on what you chose to do.. you are solelly responsible for the consequenses in your actions.. and such is just like the laws we live by..

if matters come to worse.. you can't really blame microsoft or intel or amd for drawing the line.. they had to do so somewhere.. i mean piracy of tapes back in the 70's-80's was one thing.. but now it's become a huge organised thing.. we're talking biljons of dollars every year.. we've all downloaded something illegally at least twice.. we all know it.. but the thing is.. we are the ones who made them draw that line.. and so we have to chose where we wanna stand.. and what consequenses we are willing to take for our actions.. and then go and say that we should unite and fight back.. is like a big gang defending the reason why they steal tv's from the local hardware store.. and how we should be let free to do so.. it's just stupid..

 

[blizz]

piracy of tapes was a huge organized thing, and just a cheap as copying DVDs, and was billions of dollars a year then, that's the stupid thing, all money is relative, a large amount then is a large amount there even if the numbers are bigger

 

[RatTrap]

it was organised.. but in tiny fractions.. affiliated in some ways in some countries.. but not as worldwide as this has become.. not even close to what this is..

it's hell of whole lot bigger now.. and you know it.. it's not just tapes.. it's music.. movies.. programs.. anything you can put into a harddrive.. all type of software.. ranging from incredibly expensive software.. to even semi free stuff as postcard-software.. and just released movies -can- be found if you have the right connections.. so well.. any way you see it.. it's gotten a whole lot worse than it's been b4.. now you have groups of ppl trying to find better ways to store music files in smaller sizes.. DVD-movies in much smaller space/quality.. games.. apps.. etc etc..

why do you think you see more games with better quality on a console?.. coz the piracy is harder to pull off.. a big example.. n64.. i feel sorry for this poor machine.. uhle was abit too fast.. abit too soon.. abit too much.. i sure as hell loved playing it though.. but still.. if you think about it.. it's things like these that kill a console.. wich is why generally.. authors with a good emulator for a console like the GC.. won't be releasing untill the machine has shined enugh to get a big head start from the emulator.. it's the same thing if you think about it.. release emulator today.. the machine dies.. why?.. money.. everyone downloads.. nobody buys.. it's reality.. everyone's trying to get a good deal.. unless your ekonomically independent.. and yeah..the tapes thing was the same.. and yeah it moved a whole bunch of money too.. but this has become more than that.. and if the companies wich we are doing this too find a way to fight back.. or at least stop us from doing this.. do you really think it's wrong?.. if you look at it unbiased.. you would think.. -right on.. good for you-.. you found a solution for your problem.. unless you somehow for some odd reason believe it to be justified for you to for all eternity get everything that ppl want to get paid for.. for free..

 

[AlphaWolf]

The issue here (with me at least) is palladium is a direct attack against; individual privacy; fair use rights; and the ability to have full control over both the physical property that you own (your computer that you paid for), and the information therein (any documents, media, software which YOU have written, not necessarily from a foreign source).

Palladium alone will not ever be an effective means against piracy, unless it is able to fully remove the current freedoms we have with our own PCs (IE you can't turn palladium off at all). Why? Well lets run a few scenarios here...

Scenario 1: palladium is truely secure from piracy: I write my own software for my own purposes. Palladium will not run it, because its not signed and hence if I wanted some software that shows me the result of 2+2, that means I have to buy it from somebody, or pay microsoft to allow me to run it, because I no longer have the right to create my own code.

Scenario 2: palladium is not fully secure, and is conditional instead: If it can run that software which is not signed by microsoft, then it can ALSO run software that was pirated and hence not signed.

Because of the possibilities allowed in scenario 2, microsoft is opting for scenario 1, all software you run must be signed, and there is no way to turn palladium off. It may not start out this way, but that is microsofts goal, and the only way that palladium alone can truely put an end to piracy.

Now we could also opt for the approach I often suggest, which is to use smart card technology to protect software. You can't copy smart cards unless you are a hot shot expert (its physical hardware, not software, reverse engineering IS required). Even if so, the costs of reverse engineering just one card (that costs an MFR only 10 cents to make) easily go into the millions of dollars. To top that, computers in the way they are now can easily have smart card functionality added with a $20 ISO 7816 interface card reader. No change in system architecture is necessary at all, and in fact a 7816 reader could easily be added to a cdrom drive which reads cds with smart chips attached to them.