american values...

[2bzy4ne1]

so um, what? there isn't going to a pledge of allegiance? I've heard about this briefly on the news but didn't really hear much about it, any one have an article about this they could link to this thread? hehe to lazy to find one

I found a story on CNN but i am having trouble linking. just go to www.cnn.com because it is on the front page. (Edit: Well, it used to be...)

originally posted by Tri-Force
this is how this whole thing started

Atheist (of course) Lawyer (of course) has a daughter in school. she says the pledge. ALL of it and he gets mad. he wants to sue CLAIMING that his daughter gets all screwed up when she hears mention of God because her father doesn't believe. so this guy takes the case to court (to try to make a name for himself as a lawyer i think) but heres the twist. his daughter CHOSES to say under God. then he tries to say that that isn't an important part of the case when it IS the WHOLE case.

That lawyer was from Elk Grove. That is so close to me since I live near there.:hehe:

 

[RatTrap]

i dissagree.. that is'nt the whole case.. the case is that ppl who become americans or are borned americans have to somehow find themselfs doing the pledge thing even though they are non believers.. if you put it thru black and white.. all the atheist would'nt be real americans.. wich kinda makes me giggle ..

no but serioujsly.. it's just wrong.. because although i do believe in god.. that don't mean i have to make everyone else believe in god.. it's a choise and whomever want's to believe does and the ones that don't don't.. and making the atheist ppl say things like that might matter to some ppl.. also you have many ppl with diferent religions.. soon it won't only have to be added "allah".. but all the other gods that this crazy planet believes in.. and that will just complicate the world..

god gave us the choice to believe in him or not.. i don't see why some ppl have to force others to believe in what they believe in..

btw Eagle.. i guess your pissed at Dudes response and i respect that and all.. but just coz we're not americans it don't mean that we're not aloud on this thread .. i believe that even in your country.. ppl have a right to talk out of their arses and so on.. also this isn't an americans only board..

 

[Gamer123]

First off, I found this issue to be quite frivolous.

But in a way, the athiests do have a point. I believe in God with no doubt in my mind. But we have to look at the Constitution. As mentioned earlier, it used to go "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all", but then in 1954 Congress changed the pledge of allegience to "Under God". This act of Congress was unconstitutional because the first amendment says "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...", and what Congress did was pass a law that favored a Judeo-Christian belief of "God". And just now the Supreme Court ruled that unconstitutional.
Now people like Alan Keyes (who is an idiot when it comes to this issue), think that it prohibits their free exercise of religion. But the problem is the freedom of religion allows you to exercise YOUR religion. The pledge of allegience requires you to exercise ONE UNIVERSAL religion and that is Judeo-Christian, so if a muslim or a buddhist wanted to say the pledge of alliegence, they wouldn't be excersing THEIR religion, they would be forced to exercise the UNIVERSAL religion, which is the Judeo-Christian. And that is part of the reason why the Supreme Court ruled against under God.

Now, people are starting to say that money would be unconstitutional or the Constitution wouldnt because it has "God" in it. But the main reason this went to the supreme court is because some people are required to say the pledge of allegience on a daily basis (eg. schools). And the difference between the pledge of allegience and money is, no one forces you to read every single line of wording on money on a daily basis, nor are you required to read aloud "In God We Trust" on a daily basis. Same with the constitution, although every American is encouraged to read the Constitution, the parts where they talk about man and its creator isnt essential to understanding the constitution.

So, as frivolous as it seems, it does make sense. Just think of it this way, if the United States were an Islamic country, and you were christian, would you feel comfortable saying "Under Allah"? I sure wouldnt. And thats why I understand their point. But thats just my opinion and my interpretation of the constitution, im not in law school yet, Im just a high school junior.

 

[sytaylor]

"because some people are required to say the pledge of allegience on a daily basis (eg. schools). "

anyone spot the dictatorship like actions within the so called democracy? where's the "freedom of speech" in being made to pledge youre allegance to a country you have been born in that you may not even like! :sleepy: i have never once had to prattle on about how much i love england just to take part in school life... it sounds like hitlers brainwashing!!!!!! (ok maybe not THAT bad but still), i think making people recite things they may not know or really understand though their childhoods is a tad unfair, and perhaps more effort should be made to allow them to understand it before they say it...

just to wonder off at a slight tangent here, until wrestlemania 16 vince McMahon always had someone singing america the beautiful before the event... is there really a need for patriotism in entertainment? no, im guessing he did it because it was popular!! of the places i have been nowhere else is so self centred in every day life... its statements like "god bless america" as if america was the whole universe or something. Is there any need for all this if not everyone shares the same religion?! freedom of religion is about letting people make their own choices, not ramming one down theri throat and allowing others to continue...

meh

 

[Eagle]

I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh. But the fact of the matter is, this has no effect on any nation other than the United States of America. Of course people over seas aren't going to care! Its none of their business! It will have no impact of foreign relations what so ever. If you live over seas and want to post a good point the fine, but if your going to make snide remarks like "Who cares" then just dont bother posting.

And I fully agree, God is mentioned several times in the constitution so there is no way "God" can be unconstitutional.

 

[2fast4u]

I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh. But the fact of the matter is, this has no effect on any nation other than the United States of America. Of course people over seas aren't going to care! Its none of their business! It will have no impact of foreign relations what so ever. If you live over seas and want to post a good point the fine, but if your going to make snide remarks like "Who cares" then just dont bother posting.

And I fully agree, God is mentioned several times in the constitution so there is no way "God" can be unconstitutional.

let's have my 2 cents here too (i'm about a quarter american by now ) ...

i personally think that the involvment of any religious thinking in government shouldn't be there. imho the state is taking a side where it shouldn't take one. the us constitution grants religious freedom - and that also means the freedom to be an atheist. therefore there shouldn't be mentioned 'god' or anything in that way anywhere. unfortunately the pledge is not the only thing. for instance afaik every session of congress starts with a prayer.

long text, short sense. i agree, the line 'one nation under god' is unconstitutional. /me shrugs i don't like the whole thing about a pledge of allegiance but it doesn't bother me either ...

 

[Eagle]

let's have my 2 cents here too (i'm about a quarter american by now ) ...

i personally think that the involvment of any religious thinking in government shouldn't be there. imho the state is taking a side where it shouldn't take one. the us constitution grants religious freedom - and that also means the freedom to be an atheist. therefore there shouldn't be mentioned 'god' or anything in that way anywhere. unfortunately the pledge is not the only thing. for instance afaik every session of congress starts with a prayer.

long text, short sense. i agree, the line 'one nation under god' is unconstitutional. /me shrugs i don't like the whole thing about a pledge of allegiance but it doesn't bother me either ...

Yes, but as a point of technicality. You can't declare something written in the constitution unconstitutional. It makes no difference if you think its right or wrong. While freedom of religion is in the constitution, God is mentioned in the constitution as well. SO mentioning his name in a pledge is not unconstitutional without an amendment to the constitution.

The fact that people believe that religion and government don't mix is beside the point. The issue at hand here is "Is the 'under god' line of the pledge unconstitutional", and that simply isnt true for the time being.

 

[Tri-Force]

I (of course) feel that if there was MORE God in government there would be LESS stupidity. and that can mean for whatever reason. weather you believe that the belief in God makes you too scared to act dumb or if you believe that God will guide you to make the right decisions.

 

[baks]

Hey I dont get it, if you have to take a pledge of allegiance (in England I dont think we do, dont know about the immigrants though) to show that you are a fully fledged American then they should stop asking you your ethnic status when you fill in e.g Application form, because if they ask you your ethnic status they are in a way still going to regard you as e.g. Black, Chinese.

I think the best thing to do would be to have an option topledge your allegiance or not, or you could have two versions one containig God and onwe not.








Once a Jew said to me, "O the chief of believers! There is a verse in your Holy Book Which is read by all of you (Muslims), and had it been revealed to us, we would have taken that day (on which it was revealed as a day of celebration." 'Umar bin Al-Khattab asked, "Which is that verse?" The Jew replied, "This day I have perfected your religion For you, completed My favor upon you, And have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5:3) 'Umar replied,"No doubt, we know when and where this verse was revealed to the Prophet. It was Friday and the Prophet was standing at 'Arafat (i.e. the Day of Hajj)"

(Hadith)

 

[Eagle]

Obviously you don't know what our Pledge of Allegiance is. Its a just a patriotic poem like our national anthem only no music. You aren't required to say it, its just something we do to honor our flag and country.

 

[sytaylor]

I (of course) feel that if there was MORE God in government there would be LESS stupidity. and that can mean for whatever reason. weather you believe that the belief in God makes you too scared to act dumb or if you believe that God will guide you to make the right decisions.

bush says god bless america every other day

nuff said?

 

[sytaylor]

Obviously you don't know what our Pledge of Allegiance is. Its a just a patriotic poem like our national anthem only no music. You aren't required to say it, its just something we do to honor our flag and country.

what does god have to do with america that the rest of the world doesnt? how is prasing god patriotic? its far from it, america does not own god, why should the mingle it with their government? cut out the god stuff from government, and u get ppl making decisions based on the events... but it wont happen, there are far too many luddites in this world

 

[Eagle]

what does god have to do with america that the rest of the world doesnt?

Whoa, what the hell are you talking about? No Americans are stopping England or Russia or any other country from including God in there country. Just because we include him in ours doesn't mean you have to complain that were hogging god to ourselves or something.

how is prasing god patriotic? its far from it, america does not own god, why should the mingle it with their government??

Again, were not claiming ownership of god, were claiming that we feel god has blessed our country. Were not saying god can't bless more than one country, and were not preventing any other country from doing the same. The Pledge is patriotic and one line that mentions God doesn't make it prasing god, its prasing America because were proud of America.

cut out the god stuff from government, and u get ppl making decisions based on the events... but it wont happen, there are far too many luddites in this world

We do make decisions based on events, we'd like to think that God helps us reach those decisions.

Look, this is exactly what I was saying earlier. You guys aren't American and you obviously have no idea what our Pledge of Allegiance is truly about. Staylor, your making up stuff to make Americans sound bad now! You sound like the people I see on the news from the streets of Iraq that think were pure evil or something, which in turn makes you sound bad.

I don't know why people make up these sterotypes about Americans. People seem to think that we believe we are gods compared to everybody else in other countries when thats simply not the case.

 

[Tri-Force]

exactly. and God is DEFINATLY not in most of the decisions this country makes. look at slavery. look at segragation. look at the way government works. so dont try to rush and blame God for things going wrong with this country.

 

[sytaylor]

I'm not blaming god for the problems with the country, im stating that i honestley think the decisions could be better without the god influence... and that doesn't make me "bad", just different

 

[2fast4u]

eagle, what sy is saying ain't exactly bullshit at all. i always hear from u that we can't judge the stuff coz we ain't americans. now has it occured to ya that europeans (as i am) might have a different feeling about religion and gov't? for instance imho your lastest one, "god bless america" makes me feel like god should only bless the usa and nobody else. u say u r on the side of the good and that's coz god blesses america. well, i say that america (well, the gov't that is) is part of the bad so why should god bless america, since god is on the side of the good (well, in theory at least, let's not get into that)?

 

[sytaylor]

its the arrogance of assuming that omnipitance should bless anything that annoys me, and the statement "god bless america" would be considered almost extremist nationalism if you subsituted america with another place name... im not the only one with this view... surley its not normal to wake up every day and want to bless the area of land controlled by youre government, while forgettin everywhere else... i could swear thats the intention of the saying when said by bush anyways

 

[sk8bloke22]

the word 'god' is entirely partriotic considering patriotism is a fabrication of the state that perpetuates patriotic propaganda, and that 'god' is a word that emotionally connects ppl (particularly the large relgious groups in america). religion has always been used by political institutions to maintain power and popularity, kings believed they had the divine right to power, whilst in modern times, governments interlink religion to perceive the image that 'god is with them'. its all clever nationalistic rhetoric when it comes to politics and religion.

 

[2fast4u]

i totally agree. religion as well as god is often bend into different directions in order to make it useable as a factor of political force. the roman catholic church is the best example.

 

[Eagle]

eagle, what sy is saying ain't exactly bullshit at all. i always hear from u that we can't judge the stuff coz we ain't americans. now has it occured to ya that europeans (as i am) might have a different feeling about religion and gov't? for instance imho your lastest one, "god bless america" makes me feel like god should only bless the usa and nobody else. u say u r on the side of the good and that's coz god blesses america. well, i say that america (well, the gov't that is) is part of the bad so why should god bless america, since god is on the side of the good (well, in theory at least, let's not get into that)?

I never said you couldn't judge stuff, I said you really had no business with the Pledge, and its true, Its our Pledge. You see this thread has gone off topic yet again and has no relation to the original post. God Bless America is a patriotic statement, we love our country and we wish God to bless it. Like I said before (and I'm getting slightly tired of repeating myself) we don't claim ownership of God and if you want to ask God to bless your country, we aint stoppin ya but you just seem to think we are because were the "evil americans". And why would you say the US government is part of the bad? The government is made up of the people, its one of the few stable government in the world so why would you say our government is bad? I mean come on, tell me Germany is not still holding a grudge for World War II. I personally agree with almost every decision the government has made. Granted I don't agree with all of them, but were only human, we do make mistakes. Our government is elected "for the people by the people" and is made up of the people to best serve us. Therefore saying the government is "a part of the bad" is saying the same thing about the entire nation and all its people.

Anyway I can see the more and more I post here in this thread, the more excuses you guys think up to disagree with me and I'm tired of arguing with closed minds, So I won't be posting in this thread anymore.