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A new release? are you guy willing to...

ChaosCode

New member
understand the newer version is more compatable but ALOT slower? It is true from the screen shot thread that it is more compat but some other things might be broken. Its alot slower then the current beta release. I meen I know most of you would like it but you all know my view. Anyways, based on the reaction to this thread. I will go to f1res and ask him like I did last time, If we can release the last beta to the public. Again, Most of you guys are cool but its the bad apples that screw it for everyone :p
 

Mouser X

New member
Honestly, I've never used any of the GC emulators, so my opnion probably doesn't matter too much. However, after saying that, I think the newest beta should be released, even if it is slower than the current release. If people are willing to play MP1 (or was it MP2?) for 4 hours at 5-10fps, then I doubt a few frames are going to make a big difference to them. Besides, they can always use the older versions if they want a slight increase in speed.

On the other hand, if it is slower, then expect to get even more people complaining about it. I understand that current PCs simply can't handle emulating the GC, so I don't use the emus, because I see very very little reason to play a game at 2fps. Nonetheless, with the way CPUs and such are developing, I'm sure that PCs will be able to handle GC emulation in 5 to 10 years. Yes, that may be awhile, but compare it to most other emulators. I wasn't around when ZSNES started, but my understanding is that it took at least 3 years for it to be really really good and compatible with a large number of games. 6 years (as I recall, I could be very wrong) for it to emulate the FX chip properly (for Starfox). Megaman X2 and X3 used the C4 chip for compression, and that took a long time to emulate (years, at least). So, the fact that the GC emulator works as well as it does seems fine to me. Just give PCs a few years to catch up. It's not much different than waiting for the SNES, PSX or N64 emulators to be compatible and playable with a majority of games.

That's my thoughts on the subject. While I highly doubt I'll use the next release, I still think it should be released. I like to see the progress that it makes. And eventually, PCs will catch up. So, I'll probably use it then. Glad to hear that it's definatly progressing though. Mouser X over and out.
 

Danny

Programmer | Moderator
i think you should release it. ignore those people who complain about it. i think this emulator is extroadinary as it is. i never thought we would see a gamecube being emulated on a pc. do you or f1res have any plans on continuing work on this emulator?
 

tehdarkknight

StepMania Addict
Honestly, I don't mind a slow down in emulation.
Dolphin is for compatibility, while GCemu was a side
project for speed in emulation.
I would love to give up a few fps to see the games look
better.

And, yes yes y'all, I'm back ^_^

(I kinda forgot to check around here for a few months -_- )
 

Danny

Programmer | Moderator
I agree. I personally never intended to be able to play my Gamecube games on my PC at full speed. Thats why I bought a Gamecube!! Lol. But yeah like you said it would be great to see games like Mario Kart being clear. I think it's amazing to even be able to see a Gamecube game on a PC.
 

BlueFalcon7

New member
I agree, as mad as I was to first see the emulator run at 4fps, Im glad now, because I have learned so much about gaming, emulation, and the gamecube, which i would have overlooked, as much as I like to learn new things. So go ahead Dolphin team, release a slower, more compatible version. Im all for it, i dont really care about speed right now, I like seeing gamecube emulation.
 

flowrent

New member
Any progress ..in compatibility or speed is excellent news.
Release no matter what.We'll just ban everyone complaining :D
 

Yoshiyuki Blade

New member
Mouser X said:
Honestly, I've never used any of the GC emulators, so my opnion probably doesn't matter too much. However, after saying that, I think the newest beta should be released, even if it is slower than the current release. If people are willing to play MP1 (or was it MP2?) for 4 hours at 5-10fps, then I doubt a few frames are going to make a big difference to them. Besides, they can always use the older versions if they want a slight increase in speed.

On the other hand, if it is slower, then expect to get even more people complaining about it. I understand that current PCs simply can't handle emulating the GC, so I don't use the emus, because I see very very little reason to play a game at 2fps. Nonetheless, with the way CPUs and such are developing, I'm sure that PCs will be able to handle GC emulation in 5 to 10 years. Yes, that may be awhile, but compare it to most other emulators. I wasn't around when ZSNES started, but my understanding is that it took at least 3 years for it to be really really good and compatible with a large number of games. 6 years (as I recall, I could be very wrong) for it to emulate the FX chip properly (for Starfox). Megaman X2 and X3 used the C4 chip for compression, and that took a long time to emulate (years, at least). So, the fact that the GC emulator works as well as it does seems fine to me. Just give PCs a few years to catch up. It's not much different than waiting for the SNES, PSX or N64 emulators to be compatible and playable with a majority of games.

That's my thoughts on the subject. While I highly doubt I'll use the next release, I still think it should be released. I like to see the progress that it makes. And eventually, PCs will catch up. So, I'll probably use it then. Glad to hear that it's definatly progressing though. Mouser X over and out.

I'd have to disagree on your take of PC hardware. PC stuff today are easily capable of ripping through last gen's consoles. The GC runs at 640x480 if I remember correctly. That's ridiculously easy to render with a Geforce 7900 series cards or ATI X1900 series.

I just tested Smash Bros. with v1.03 on my 7800 GT @ 640x480 resolution and 4x AA, and it ran about 10 FPS in-game (In training mode at Corneria). Kicking it up a notch to 1600x1200, the fps didn't change at all. There's something seriously bottlenecking the framerate, and I doubt it would be the CPU (got an overclocked Athlon x2 4400+). It's all in the software, but emulating a console was never an easy task.

My point is that if any of these GC games were officially ported to the PC, we'd be seeing them at 1600x1200 4xAA 16x AF and at full speed easily. Unfortunately, its not like that, but I'm pretty sure it depends on the software. I don't know what's eating up all of the frames right now. Can anyone elaborate on the mechanics of the emulator? This is much different from emulation back then, where there weren't really any standards to games. There was no pixel shader 2.0 etc, so emulating the oldies was much harder.

I think what we need is strong support in the GC emulation area. The PSX advanced pretty well over the years, and now its compatable with just about any game due to the wide support in PSX emulation. Any ancient PC could play a PSX game @ 320x240 because of the great development of PSX emulators (ePSXe to be specific) and plugins.

That said, I would love to see the PC emulate the GC well in the future. I'm an image quality junkie, and I'm simply love playing Smash at this resolution. Just needs to be a little faster :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/YoshiyukiBlade/dolphin2006-04-1503-30-48-79.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/YoshiyukiBlade/dolphin2006-04-1503-37-12-82.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/YoshiyukiBlade/dolphin2006-04-1503-43-45-56.jpg
 
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Doomulation

?????????????????????????
The bottleneck IS the cpu, not the graphics card. It is emulating the entire gamecube system, not just the processor. Plus it is not emulating a x86 processor, but rather a power pc processor, which is much different.
Certainly, the emulator might perhaps be optimized a little further, but you need to remember that dolphin already is very optimized. The current hardware is too slow to run the emu.

Concerning a release... stop whining. It's out when it will be and that is up to its authors to decide. They will not just release it because you whine and want it out. Be patient. Wait. It will come out eventually. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe in one year. Maybe two. Just... wait. And stop whining.
 

Mouser X

New member
Doomulation said:
The bottleneck IS the cpu, not the graphics card. It is emulating the entire gamecube system, not just the processor. Plus it is not emulating a x86 processor, but rather a power pc processor, which is much different.
Certainly, the emulator might perhaps be optimized a little further, but you need to remember that dolphin already is very optimized. The current hardware is too slow to run the emu.
Thanks for backing me up on that one.

Concerning a release... stop whining. It's out when it will be and that is up to its authors to decide. They will not just release it because you whine and want it out. Be patient. Wait. It will come out eventually. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe in one year. Maybe two. Just... wait. And stop whining.
If what I said was considered whining, sorry, as that was not my intention. Chaos asked if he thought we were ready for the next release, so I answered accordingly. At least, I think that's what he/she was asking, and I think I answered accordingly. I only answered because I was asked first. Mouser X over and out.
 

Yoshiyuki Blade

New member
Doomulation said:
The bottleneck IS the cpu, not the graphics card. It is emulating the entire gamecube system, not just the processor. Plus it is not emulating a x86 processor, but rather a power pc processor, which is much different.
Certainly, the emulator might perhaps be optimized a little further, but you need to remember that dolphin already is very optimized. The current hardware is too slow to run the emu.

Concerning a release... stop whining. It's out when it will be and that is up to its authors to decide. They will not just release it because you whine and want it out. Be patient. Wait. It will come out eventually. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe in one year. Maybe two. Just... wait. And stop whining.

Hmm... there's still something missing, but I'm assuming you know more than me so I'll take your word for it. Does the GC's CPU play that much of a role in fps? I mean all the slowdowns seem to occur in graphic-intensive areas, which should be primarily off-loaded to the GPU. The title screens and character-selection screens in Smash run perfectly at or above 60 fps, and some games like Bust-a-Move run perfectly in everything. It's not that complex graphically, so I wouldn't be surprised. I guess I was assuming that the GPU governed the speed more than anything else.
 

Agozer

16-bit Corpse | Moderator
Yoshiyuki Blade said:
I guess I was assuming that the GPU governed the speed more than anything else.
Wrong, as far as emulation is concerned. When you emulate something, most of the stress falls to your own CPU, because it needs to emulate everything the target machine does. Your video card/sound card don't really emulate anything, they just do whatever your CPU tells them to do.

The reason why emulation slows down when there's lots of geometry/random stuff onscreen is because your CPU can't emulate all the possible instructions fast enough, and so your video card won't be able to render the needed frames fast enough.

If we would be talking about native PC games, then your comment would be more correct; to a degree still.

EDIT: I can't spell worth damn.
 
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Yoshiyuki Blade

New member
Agozer said:
Wrong, as far as emulation is concerned. When you emulate something, most of the stress falls to your own CPU, because it needs to emulate everything the target machine does. Your video card/sound card don't really emulate anything, they just do whatever your CPU tells them to do.

The reason why emulation slows don't when there lots of geometry/random stuff onscreen is because your CPU can't emulate all the possible instruction fast enough, and so your video card won't be able to render the needed frames fast enough.

If we would be talking about native PC games, then your comment would be more correct; to a degree still.

So the power it takes to emulate most of the GC's components relies entirely on the CPU, which isn't fast enough at the moment... makes sense. It takes a processor more than 6 times faster than the GC to run at 10-15 fps... ouch. It kinda sucks to know that the video card is limited by the cpu in emulation.
 

Doomulation

?????????????????????????
Yoshiyuki Blade said:
Hmm... there's still something missing, but I'm assuming you know more than me so I'll take your word for it. Does the GC's CPU play that much of a role in fps? I mean all the slowdowns seem to occur in graphic-intensive areas, which should be primarily off-loaded to the GPU. The title screens and character-selection screens in Smash run perfectly at or above 60 fps, and some games like Bust-a-Move run perfectly in everything. It's not that complex graphically, so I wouldn't be surprised. I guess I was assuming that the GPU governed the speed more than anything else.
If I think about it, I would guess that the more graphics intensitive it is, the more work the CPU AND the GPU has to do. So yes, again, the CPU.
 

Agozer

16-bit Corpse | Moderator
Emulating graphics intensive games (read: 3D games) is like pseudo-software rendering if you ask me. When software rendering is used, everything is done by the CPU, and then the GPU outputs the graphics.

With hardware acceleration, the GPU own processors manages the graphics instructions by itself while it let's the CPU do it's own thing.

With emulators that use 3D accelerator cards, it's almost the same thing. The card only does so little when the emulator (or the graphics plugin) instructs the card to use Direct3D to render frames, but the GPU doesn't do much else that that. Sure, the GPU would like to use it's features to make the rendering faster (like it's supposed to), but the instructions coming from the emulated console are completely alien to it, so it has to wait for the CPU to translate the instructions and wait for the translations to be passed to the GPU.

So technically it's like software rendering, except it isn't because some hardware acceleration is used. :/
 

Blacklord

Banned
i also have a question. The power pc chip is based on a entirely different architecture that i understand, and when emulating instead of the cpu imitating the power pc chip it runs it as if it was a software or program<-- if till here i didn't say complete bullshit, then it can be compared to software redering a game(openGL) right?
 

Agozer

16-bit Corpse | Moderator
OpenGL rendering isn't software rendering. It's similar to Direct3D, but cross-platform.
 
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