Project64 is not perfect

[Clements]

That's what I tried, but where is this "audio sync" option? It's not the audio plugin; I'm using Azimer's HLE, here. Force Old School Audio Sync is off, but you know, now that I just tried zilmar's No Sound plugin, the speed limiter is successfully removed on Mupen64....

Specifically when using Azimer's HLE Audio v0.56 WIP 2, you need to disable both Dynamic Audio Sync and Force Old Audio Sync.

Meaning, on the sufficient system for N64 emulation, speed should not be a reason not to use it with its core issue fixes unless you're really aiming for speed for some odd reason.

CPU cycle use is important for me since I use a laptop (above recommended requirements by a long way), so if a emulator uses too many CPU cycles, it cuts hours of playtime out, can cause overheating, especially if an emulator has no option to allow sleeping when idle and uses 100% CPU.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ah, okay then.

I guess, for now, I can only rank these four emulators by speed in this order:

1. 1964
2. Project64
3. Mupen64
4. Nemu64

I mean, I suppose Nemu64 is faster, since it uses a much 'heavier' input and audio plugin, but it's just so damn hard to decide. It doesn't use an external RSP plugin, but that might not lever it all out.

I think the best thing to do might be to not rate Nemu64's core in terms of speed, because it forces you to use a couple plugins that are slower for emulation than those of other emulators. Even if its core and be officially rated for speed, it may end up to not be worth it.

 

[Rice]

Project64 1.6: 240 to 300 FPS
1964 0.9.9: 300 to 375 FPS
Mupen64: 111 to 116 FPS

Mupen64: 105 to 113 FPS (109 FPS AVG)
Nemu64: 95 to 125 FPS (110 FPS AVG)

This is still not real CPU core speed. If you really want to test it, you should try to use no_audio and no_video plugins. If you use some video plugins, the video rendering actually takes upto 90% of your PC CPU time.

Both 1964 and PJ64 give you the percentage of how much percent CPU core is using, and how much the plugins are using. You can take the frame rate, divided by the percentage used by the core, to roughly estimate the true CPU core speed.

I won't be surprised if Mupen64 is over 10 times slower than PJ64 or 1964.

 

[Iconoclast]

Phrrbt. Just try out Top Gear Overdrive. You'll see what I mean. Ain't no plugin going to make any emulator run it faster than Mupen64's core will.

Also, even if Mupen64 is ten times slower, would it really help if it were the fastest N64 emulator? 1964 deserves that title more, because the speed limiter is more easier to access than on Mupen64. A single press of the F9 button! In any case, Mupen64 still fixes just about every core issue, whether in graphics or sound, that the other three emulators combined fix, running at a still good 60 FPS on sufficient systems. Out of these amazing sacrifices for core performance, Mupen64 is still the best core emulator.

But it is not the best emulator, period, because it lacks NetPlay, GS cheats, freeing up CPU for things like using the 4 MB instead of 8 MB expansion pak, and is generally quite slow, as you have proven. In terms of emulation performace, however, the avoidance of issues, it is superior.

 

[squall_leonhart]

Project64 is easy to speed up

hit f4, and change its cpu priority to above normal or high.... high is actually better

 

[Iconoclast]

Project64 is easy to speed up

hit f4, and change its cpu priority to above normal or high.... high is actually better

But, not only is Azimer's Audio, and audio plugin with less or no crackling even with audio sync option off than Jabo's DirectSound, slightly more compliant with 1964, but it's good to use an HLE audio plugin if you want a little tiny bit more speed, and 1964's always a nice combo with that, and Project64 comes with an LLE audio plugin that requires you to make sure the audio sync option is disabled before you can remove the speed limiter successfully. Either way, its speed limiter option, or F4, is still useful, but 1964 was more made to fly by in speed. I could've mentioned Project64 as another example, but I didn't want to.

1964 was also made to fix some core-graphics issues that Project64, Mupen64 and Nemu64 don't. For example, test the game AI Shougi 3. It also has two other features that Project64 doesn't: A nice and stable NetPlay performance and assigning certain plugins to certain games (Mupen64, I know) to make plugin-switching according to game easier. Point being, no emulator is 'overall' the best.

 

[ScottJC]

I'll admit Project64 is not perfect, but who ever said it was?

 

[Iconoclast]

Heh...

I think zilmar wanted to pick a less 'aggressive' title, to reduce the war-like ways of my words.

 

[ScottJC]

Perfection is not easy, especially for an emulator - i'm pretty agressive myself, theres been many a time i've had it out over paticular games (esp Banjo-tooie) which 1.7 has finally fixed.

Project64 is responcible for many of the innovations of n64 emulation, every little helps, you see the latest development, Jabo Finally got Framebuffer to work in Mario Kart 64, even for me! *posts screenshot* that is the first time i've been able to do that at full speed.

I must admit on some of this stuff you have a point, but their still making progress with is a good thing.

 

[Iconoclast]

I know it isn't. I wasn't trying to complain about it not being perfect, just the supposed overration of the emulator.

Yeah, I noticed that on the pj64.net website...I'm really impressed that they managed to do that without some sort of frame buffer emulation including a rapid slowdown in emulation speed. Btw, Glide64 also fixes that issue, though probably not as well as Jabo's new plugin update without some sort of speed loss, unless you have a 'nice' card.

As for Banjo-Tooie, it isn't just 1.7 that's got it fixed; it's also Mupen64 or 1964 with Jabo's Direct3D 6. Fixes the jigsaw effect, even, as long as you got self-rendered textures checked in plugin configuration (ROM Settings tab).

 

[ScottJC]

Project64 1.6 and below all have random crashes in-game with Banjo-Tooie, this has been confirmed by many people so its not just me, as far as I know 1.7 doesn't; 1964 0.8.4+Mupens Rsp definatly doesn't, 0.9.9 has the fire egg glitch so It doesn't count hence why I mentioned the older version.

Project64 1.7 is still a bit less ideal for Banjo-tooie, I get constant pauses as it plays, but apparently Zilmar is working on some core optimizations that will stop that so all is good.

 

[zilmar]

Yer, I am not happy with the current performance of tooie. It is one of the games I will go back to make nicer.

There are a few categories that an emu writer can focus on when improving an emu:
- features
- stability
- compatibility
- speed

focusing on different things can cause issues in the other areas. The main reason Pj64 is refered to as the best is cause it is extremely good (not nessarly the top in each area). It is more one of the design methods we follow. 99% of users will not want to tweak, they want to just install and play. Since most of the top games on most of the common computers these days play well. That is why we have that title.

I think I might just to flush out more of this and write a blog post latter this week on these issues and put it up on pj64.net latter this week.

Note: the title I choose so that this disccusion could continue outside of the logo discussion with out it just being a flame war. It seems to be working at the moment we are haveing a decent disccusion about it. Well I think so anyway.

 

[Iconoclast]

On a side note, GameShark cheats WILL crash the game. There are four of them that screw up Banjo-Tooie, whether it be a crash or a GUI failure. Project64 may crash even without the cheats, though it's never happened to me without them, but Mupen64's core also has this game pretty nicely.

Yer, I am not happy with the current performance of tooie. It is one of the games I will go back to make nicer.

There are a few categories that an emu writer can focus on when improving an emu:
- features
- stability
- compatibility
- speed

focusing on different things can cause issues in the other areas. The main reason Pj64 is refered to as the best is cause it is extremely good (not nessarly the top in each area). It is more one of the design methods we follow. 99% of users will not want to tweak, they want to just install and play. Since most of the top games on most of the common computers these days play well. That is why we have that title.

I think I might just to flush out more of this and write a blog post latter this week on these issues and put it up on pj64.net latter this week.

Note: the title I choose so that this disccusion could continue outside of the logo discussion with out it just being a flame war. It seems to be working at the moment we are haveing a decent disccusion about it. Well I think so anyway.

I think, more like, 40-80 percent won't want to bother to tweak. Some might care about graphics issues more than others. A lot of users here have been posting about graphics issues under the Project64 forum.

In any case, Project64 does not need any less tweaking than the other three decent emulators to get games running just as well...except Nemu64's and 1964's default graphics plugin, which can easily be changed to match Project64's game compatibility and graphics emulation and probably even surpass for some games if the core is involved.

Even if Project64 is the most simplistic, in relativity to the rest, emulator to quickly just install and play without tweaking, that does not make it the best. It might make it the easiest for those who are lazy, but it does not make it the best emulator.

 

[zilmar]

I think, more like, 40-80 percent won't want to bother to tweak. Some might care about graphics issues more than others. A lot of users here have been posting about graphics issues under the Project64 forum.

I know this number seems lower to you, then to us but that is cause you pay attention to the forum where people go when they do want to do something about it. The number of people who actually visit the forum is a lot less then the people who use the emu.

In any case, Project64 does not need any less tweaking than the other three decent emulators to get games running just as well...except Nemu64's and 1964's default graphics plugin, which can easily be changed to match Project64's game compatibility and graphics emulation and probably even surpass for some games if the core is involved.

Not saying other emus can not match pj64 cause that is untrue, they can be worse, the same or better depening on the game and how you tweak it. I am not saying pj64 is the best, I am just saying why it was refrered to as the best.

Even if Project64 is the most simplistic, in relativity to the rest, emulator to quickly just install and play without tweaking, that does not make it the best. It might make it the easiest for those who are lazy, but it does not make it the best emulator.

This can easily make it the best to some people. It depends on how you judge an emulator to define the best.

What would I have to change in pj64 for you to say it was the best? What is your definition?

 

[Iconoclast]

Okay, then, I misunderstood.

What would I have to change in pj64 for you to say it was the best? What is your definition?

A software program that is superior in succession of its purpose of emulation to all other software with the same purpose.

To be superior to all other software with the same purpose, it must, logically, be best at the purpose, emulation. Emulation can be defined as,

"The successful execution of software on a computer system it was not designed to run on."

Now, logically, Mupen64 fixes more issues that Project64 doesn't than vice versa, but, on the other hand, Project64 and 1964 (and Nemu64) emulate the GameShark cheats feature. To sum up, all of those issues for Project64 I mentioned earlier? Mupen64 fixes all of those. Therefore, logically, it must be superior at emulation, but not all-around. Two things: Speed and features.

Now, what isn't emulation, is making an emulator so it asks for minimal or no tweaking to get the game going. That's not emulation, that's simplification.

 

[squall_leonhart]

hmm,.. would i be right in saying.. that to get perfect LLE, you would need the bios from the n64?

 

[zilmar]

hmm,.. would i be right in saying.. that to get perfect LLE, you would need the bios from the n64?

There is no bios in the n64

 

[squall_leonhart]

what controls the pcb and boots the system then?

 

[zilmar]

what controls the pcb and boots the system then?

There is a boot chip. this will initilize things, work out to boot from the 64dd or cart, copy the boot off the source, then validate it has not been changed, then boot this. Once a game has booted, the boot code is hidden and is not accessible to the game any more. So all code needed to be run has to be in the cart.

Pj64 starts emulation at the point of booting we set all memory and registers as if it had gone through the boot chip.

 

[squall_leonhart]

ahh.. i see, it has a bootblock, really old computers (the cartridge kind) had something similar.