About GC emulation

[icepir8]

/me has been working on it. We will see.
irate:

 

[decription]

I WUV YOU ICE!!
See, and back then i nominated you. I'm so smart. Anyway good luck with the project *cough GCEMU cough*. Could I name it?

 

[new_profile]

The mini

- I heared recently that the laser in the GC mini-DVD read the data from the outside to the inside.

- I also found an amazing file on the eDonkey network "GameCube Boot-Disc 2.0 Complete-TESTED-.zip"

Is it a fake ?

 

[Trotterwatch]

Is it a fake ?

Of course it is.

 

[GuestX]

btw... i just saw some months ago a Gamecube document
with PPC OpCodes by tbag.

 

[hotquik]

Maybe it's a stupid question, but wouldnt be easier to transalate the rom to x86 arquitecture instead of emulating the powerPc ?

 

[Tagrineth]

Maybe it's a stupid question, but wouldnt be easier to transalate the rom to x86 arquitecture instead of emulating the powerPc ?

Um... the end result is the same. Just that pre-recompiled data would:

A. Run a whole bunch faster

and

B. Be a WHOLE FREAKING LOT more illegal.

It's the same thing as today's ROMs for N64, SNES, etc., it'd be much faster to store post-translated data and reference that instead, but it's blatantly illegal to do that. (there's still some level of pseudo-legality in the way we use ROMs today)

Also if you were to store converted data for a GCN game you'd be storing a LOT! of data.

 

[hotquik]

Um... the end result is the same. Just that pre-recompiled data would:

A. Run a whole bunch faster

well, that was what i really meant

and

B. Be a WHOLE FREAKING LOT more illegal.

:saint:
isn't that what xbox emus are trying to do ?

It's the same thing as today's ROMs for N64, SNES, etc., it'd be much faster to store post-translated data and reference that instead, but it's blatantly illegal to do that. (there's still some level of pseudo-legality in the way we use ROMs today)

Also if you were to store converted data for a GCN game you'd be storing a LOT! of data.

why? wouldnt an opcode be translated to another opcode, or is a lot more complex than that?

 

[Tagrineth]

:saint:
isn't that what xbox emus are trying to do ?

No, the Xbox emulators don't have to do any translation. Xbox uses x86 already. The catches with Xbox emulation are of course, for one that the DVD's are written backwards, and for another that they of course can check if they're on an Xbox. But technically it shouldn't be that hard to emulate Xbox, except reading the discs. AFAIR, isn't there an Xbox emulator already, but it has to read discs from an original Xbox DVD-ROM drive, through a network or something?

why? wouldnt an opcode be translated to another opcode, or is a lot more complex than that?

When you're talking about two VERY different architectures like PowerPC and x86, it's often a LOT more complex than Opcode A becomes Opcode B. There are things you can do on one that can't be done very easily on the other...

...wait...

Maybe it's a stupid question, but wouldnt be easier to transalate the rom to x86 arquitecture instead of emulating the powerPc ?

The way I understood the original post was, that you were wondering if it'd be easier to pre-convert the PowerPC code on the disc into an x86-compatible image rather than direct-emulating PowerPC...

If that ISN'T what you meant, then translating to x86 is exactly the same thing as emulating PowerPC. That's what emulation IS.

 

[hotquik]

First, forgive my bad english :blush:

What i mean is that the fact of a ~90Mhz system (N64) needs at least a 10 times faster pc to emulate it, is due to the opcode conversion... then a before-run GC to PC converter or something like that , instead of an on-run emulator, could lower the requeriments of a machine to emulate an specific system...

 

[Tagrineth]

First, forgive my bad english :blush:

What i mean is that the fact of a ~90Mhz system (N64) needs at least a 10 times faster pc to emulate it, is due to the opcode conversion... then a before-run GC to PC converter or something like that , instead of an on-run emulator, could lower the requeriments of a machine to emulate an specific system...

Ah, that's what I assumed you meant.

As I said, that's VERY ILLEGAL, and takes a lot of storage space.

Put it this way. If it was reasonable to do, do you really think people woudn't have already made N64 MIPS -> x86 converters?

 

[hotquik]

:doh: i guess so
about the storage space, what would be the proportion in your opinion?

 

[love77]

The problem is no one has dumped a Game Cube disk yet.

XBox and PS2 uses standard DVD disk. Where as Game Cube uses a custom format mini DVD.

yes , exactly :holiday:

 

[ShadowPrince]

Ah, that's what I assumed you meant.

As I said, that's VERY ILLEGAL, and takes a lot of storage space.

Put it this way. If it was reasonable to do, do you really think people woudn't have already made N64 MIPS -> x86 converters?

I doubt it's any more illegal,than playing roms on an emulator .
I don't think this is main reason,why we don't see any N64 converted roms

And binary conversions have really NOT much to do with emulation.When emulator basically emulates HARDWARE (excluding when some parts of it HLE), binary conversion is translating SOFTWARE from one hardware to another (perfect port) .
The reasons why no one yet made N64 MIPS -> x86 converters,that come to my mind:

1.I suppose binary translator is a VERY hard thing to do for such an complex machine as N64 .(not to speak about GC)

2.Even if it will be done,it will need special adjustements per each game . Nearly impossible to make binary converter ,that will work automatically. Converting one N64 rom will take as much time as making port of the N64 game to PC.

3.Current emulators (for N64) doing nice job anyway,playing almost all roms on acceptable speeds ,so i doubt it's really worth it .
Speaking of never consoles GC,XBOX,PS2, probably it's making sense to look at binary conversion more closely,especially with XBOX . As speed with conventional emulators will be extremely slow on current machines.

 

[Tagrineth]

I doubt it's any more illegal,than playing roms on an emulator .
I don't think this is main reason,why we don't see any N64 converted roms

It's simple really.

Emulators are legal, period. Obviously. There's nothing wrong with emulating a system, because the main intent is, ideally, for PD and homebrewn ROMs.

ROMs themselves are pseudo-legal. Technically speaking, if you have the cartridge and make the ROM yourself using something other than a certified-illegal backup device, it's completely legal and, in theory, there isn't anything anyone can do about it, provided you don't run the cartridge and the ROM simlutaneously... in that case you're breaking your effective 'single-user license' that you signed by paying for the cartridge. And, also in theory, there's no way to run them without the original hardware.

Both of these have some potential legality, though obviously put together you get a formula for illegality.

There's also the fact that most people are too stupid to run ROMs on their own. See also half the useless topics that get locked pretty much on sight.

Now, a ROM executable, OTOH, is flat-out bad. It might as well have I WAS MADE FOR PIRACY in the header. The only reason they could possibly exist IS to be run illegaly - note the 'combination' comment two linebreaks above this one - which would mean, owners of self-executable ROM images could be arrested and fined with ease; owners of standard ROM images still have the 'back door' of proving they own the original cartridges as well, and that they created the images themselves, WITHOUT the use of a backup device (it can be done!).

 

[DreamlanD]

Just to clarify something...

Maybe it's a stupid question, but wouldnt be easier to transalate the rom to x86 arquitecture instead of emulating the powerPc ?

I assume you're talking about direct conversion of PPC to x86 instructions, which is called recompilation. All emulators for systems higher than SNES or so already do that -- it's needed to get any sort of acceptable speed. As for the legality...that would be hard to say. Since it's completely different code it might be able to get by, but of course you would still need all of the additional game files and data which are copyrighted anyway.

As for GC emulation, the main problem at this point is the discs. Since the SDK has been leaked already the documentation isn't a problem, it is only a matter of finding a way to read the game data. If course the emulator would probably run really slow with today's computers.....

 

[Doomulation]

It's simple really.

Emulators are legal, period. Obviously. There's nothing wrong with emulating a system, because the main intent is, ideally, for PD and homebrewn ROMs.

ROMs themselves are pseudo-legal. Technically speaking, if you have the cartridge and make the ROM yourself using something other than a certified-illegal backup device, it's completely legal and, in theory, there isn't anything anyone can do about it, provided you don't run the cartridge and the ROM simlutaneously... in that case you're breaking your effective 'single-user license' that you signed by paying for the cartridge. And, also in theory, there's no way to run them without the original hardware.

Both of these have some potential legality, though obviously put together you get a formula for illegality.

There's also the fact that most people are too stupid to run ROMs on their own. See also half the useless topics that get locked pretty much on sight.

Now, a ROM executable, OTOH, is flat-out bad. It might as well have I WAS MADE FOR PIRACY in the header. The only reason they could possibly exist IS to be run illegaly - note the 'combination' comment two linebreaks above this one - which would mean, owners of self-executable ROM images could be arrested and fined with ease; owners of standard ROM images still have the 'back door' of proving they own the original cartridges as well, and that they created the images themselves, WITHOUT the use of a backup device (it can be done!).

What about the copyright saying that any backup of the carts is illegal? lain: what about them?
Converting them...i suppose that also is illegal as it's illegal to basically do anything other than play a cart...and there's no laws backing it up, either...

I'm just speculating, though.

 

[Tagrineth]

Just to clarify something...

I assume you're talking about direct conversion of PPC to x86 instructions, which is called recompilation. All emulators for systems higher than SNES or so already do that -- it's needed to get any sort of acceptable speed. As for the legality...that would be hard to say. Since it's completely different code it might be able to get by, but of course you would still need all of the additional game files and data which are copyrighted anyway.

As for GC emulation, the main problem at this point is the discs. Since the SDK has been leaked already the documentation isn't a problem, it is only a matter of finding a way to read the game data. If course the emulator would probably run really slow with today's computers.....

Mmm. Even if the code is different, the art copyrights still remain. The game would have to look different in order to be legalised. And then it wouldn't be the same game anymore

 

[Vchat20]

hmm. for the art copyright's, if it is possible. change the color of a singlepixel in each image. that should work. it is a different image isnt it?

 

[Tagrineth]

hmm. for the art copyright's, if it is possible. change the color of a singlepixel in each image. that should work. it is a different image isnt it?

Legal gray area.

But it's still VERY questionable. And I'm sure the courts would rule in the original owner's favour.