[$threadinfo[title]]

[natesully]

I understand some games are designed to run at 20FPS- but this seriously gives me a headache. Is there some way to run them at high speed?

F-zero runs beautiful on my system at 60FPS- but the zeldas, Goldeneye, etc. stutter about like mad.

[cooliscool]

Just as they would on the real system... true FPS helps set timing. If the game isn't designed to run at 60FPS based on other timing factors, it would never seem correct.

You could find out the corresponding VI/s of 60 true FPS, force that value as a refresh rate to your GPU, run in fullscreen at said resolution, as a test. ;)

[natesully]

Didn't think so.

[Iconoclast]

Don't give up hope, yet. Install 1964 and use the default plugins (even Rice's Daedalus) if you're looking for optimal speed.

If you're trying to play Super Mario 64 or something, install the Corn emulator. That thing is so fast, dude, I can't even see myself jump....

[cooliscool]

Don't give up hope, yet. Install 1964 and use the default plugins (even Rice's Daedalus) if you're looking for optimal speed.

If you're trying to play Super Mario 64 or something, install the Corn emulator. That thing is so fast, dude, I can't even see myself jump....

You missed the entire point..:geek:

[Iconoclast]

He said that while F-Zero runs just fine, GoldenEye and other games stutter like mad, which means slow emulation. I was giving him suggestions to speed up emulation. You answered his first problem, and I answered his second.

[Allnatural]

He said that while F-Zero runs just fine, GoldenEye and other games stutter like mad, which means slow emulation. I was giving him suggestions to speed up emulation. You answered his first problem, and I answered his second.
You're still missing the point. They are perceived to "stutter like mad" because the games naturally run at ~20fps.

[squall_leonhart]

man i have an eye for stutter and as long as the fields per second is at 60 (or 50 if its a pal game)

its smooth.... sure pal games do seem slower though...

[Iconoclast]

You're still missing the point. They are perceived to "stutter like mad" because the games naturally run at ~20fps.Tell me, what's a version of the GoldenEye ROM that runs at 20 FPS? Because, afaik, it's just 60 and 50 for PAL.

And if you can't find a version that runs at 20 FPS, then you shouldn't have assumed that it's his ROM and not his system/plugins. I mean, even if there is a version, what in the HELL kind of ROM site would give a version of GoldenEye running at 20 FPS (in a PM, if necessary)? It's obviously his system, or the site he got his ROM from, is just plain stupid. And if he got it from (betternotsay).net, he would know better than to download a non-(U) [!] ROM if he's smart enough to install 7-Zip from that mazey website.

[Clements]

Tell me, what's a version of the GoldenEye ROM that runs at 20 FPS? Because, afaik, it's just 60 and 50 for PAL.

And if you can't find a version that runs at 20 FPS, then you shouldn't have assumed that it's his ROM and not his system/plugins. I mean, even if there is a version, what in the HELL kind of ROM site would give a version of GoldenEye running at 20 FPS (in a PM, if necessary)? It's obviously his system, or the site he got his ROM from, is just plain stupid. And if he got it from (betternotsay).net, he would know better than to download a non-(U) [!] ROM if he's smart enough to install 7-Zip from that mazey website.

What Allnatural meant was that Goldeneye 007 was developed with a variable framerate on the real system, and not a consistent 60/50 FPS (N64 is not even powerful enough to pull that feat off). The estimate of ~20 FPS Allnatural stated is a good estimate for the average framerate the N64 runs Goldeneye at.

You may be getting framerate and vertical interrupts (or fields per second) mixed up (not all N64 games ran at a consistent 60 FPS, mostly 2D games and simple games like Bomberman 64 ran at that framerate in-game, certainly not Goldeneye 007).

Goldeneye can run as slow or slower than 20 FPS in some scenes on the real system (and still show up as 50/60V/Is in emulators, since the slowdowns are for the most part emulated fairly accurately). Goldeneye can also reach 60 FPS is less demanding scenes (such as facing a wall).

[Iconoclast]

What Allnatural meant was that Goldeneye 007 was developed with a variable framerate on the real system, not a consistent 60/50 FPS (N64 is not even powerful enough to pull that feat off) or any other fixed framerate. You are getting framerate and vertical interrupts (or fields per second) mixed up.

Goldeneye can run as slow or slower than 20 FPS in some scenes on the real system (and still show up as 50/60V/Is in emulators, since the slowdowns are for the most part emulated fairly accurately).Weird. Goes at 60 FPS for me all the time, and I got the (U) [!] ROM. No slowdown over here. I don't suppose you can name one of these areas?

I thought it was frames per second and not fields. Does this mean that, frames per second is frame rate, but this whole time, FPS meant fields per second?

The only time I get anything down to 20 FPS over here is when I got those x2 Grenade Launchers and blow the crap out of the wall in front of me with Invincibility cheat on. It doesn't just slow down the emulator; it even slows down the actual N64 console as well, causing it to skip a bunch of video images, showing about only one video update per second.

[squall_leonhart]

LOL

Iconoclast just to back up clements... download fraps and run it with the fps counter enabled in the corner.,.. you'll see what we are talking about :P

looky
007 doesn't have a frame limit, so it can reach the max theoretical fps that the hertz is capable of (the console isn't capable of running at this speed.....)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/squall_leonhart69r/th_project64_007.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/squall_leonhart69r/project64_007.jpg)

walking through the FPS dips by nearly half, while the Fields per second only drop to 51-55
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/squall_leonhart69r/th_project64_007_2.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/squall_leonhart69r/project64_007_2.jpg)



The fps is capped at 20fps, yet it still feels smooth.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/squall_leonhart69r/th_project64_link.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/squall_leonhart69r/project64_link.jpg)


ooops i should've taken two goldeneye shots.. to show you what clements meant by variable

[Iconoclast]

LOL

Iconoclast just to back up clements... download fraps and run it with the fps counter enabled in the corner.,.. you'll see what we are talking about :PWhatever. I understand that he's trying to tell me something about the emulator not telling you the true FPS or something like that. My point is, I don't see any slowdowns in the game, and it APPEARS to run at 60 FPS. I am asking him for a counterexample.

Besides, if it appears to run at 60 FPS, that means no major staggering, which is what this user who started the thread reported, which means his PC caused it.

[Clements]

Weird. Goes at 60 FPS for me all the time, and I got the (U) [!] ROM. No slowdown over here. I don't suppose you can name one of these areas?

I thought it was frames per second and not fields. Does this mean that, frames per second is frame rate, but this whole time, FPS meant fields per second?

The only time I get anything down to 20 FPS over here is when I got those x2 Grenade Launchers and blow the crap out of the wall in front of me with Invincibility cheat on. It doesn't just slow down the emulator; it even slows down the actual N64 console as well, causing it to skip a bunch of video images, showing about only one video update per second.

Try using Glide64's framerate counter for framerates. FRAPS also works.

PJ64 1.6 does not have an in-built framerate indicator (counter at the bottom is fields per second or Vertical interupts (V/Is) as 1964 calls it).

Ya, basically what squall says.

I don't see any slowdowns in the game, and it APPEARS to run at 60 FPS. I am asking him for a counterexample.

See image attatched, running at 15 frames per second, but at full speed (60 V/Is).

[squall_leonhart]

that scene has a high amount of framebuffer effects though... if we were to disable the mountains in the distance... it'd probably go quicker......

atleast thats what i remeber reading somewhere here :|

[Clements]

That scene is definitely not a framebuffer effect. Probable cause of slowdown is the high polygon count as you imply though.

[Iconoclast]

See image attatched, running at 15 frames per second, but at full speed (60 V/Is).Interesting, your screenshot...so, the game LOOKS like it's running at 60 FPS, but it's really running at full speed like on the actual console, approx. 20 FPS?

That explains it. That's what I didn't get, was that it's supposed to look perfect emulation speed, but it's really actually emulated at the rightfully slow framerate.

So, question of confirmation: What's the difference between frames per second and fields per second? From what I'm interpreting so far, frames/sec. is VI/S and fields/sec. is framerate?

[squall_leonhart]

fields per second has something to do with the calculations made by the core i believe :| i very well could be wrong, and probably am.. but looking back on maths... fields had something to do with that....

[Clements]

Bare in mind that what looks like 60 FPS to you and what it looks like to other people is completely subjective. Some people are extremely aware of the low framerate, for example, in Ocarina of Time in-game, and some other people may not be able to perceive it at all. I personally, can just about perceive the difference between NTSC F-Zero X's smoothness (60 Frames Per Second in-game), and NTSC Ocarina of Time (just 20 Frames Per Second in-game, or three fold 'less smooth').

Some people may expect some games like Goldeneye to have a consistent framerate throughout, and so can perceive slowdowns (when the variable framerate in-game dips below their threshold of perception) and think this is a bug or a problem. However, these slowdowns are mostly normal to the real N64 and cannot be solved whichever emulator/plugin you use. If you are not getting 60V/Is (causing a slowdown), then that is definitely a emulator/plugin/low spec PC problem.

For full definitions of fields, fields per second and frames per second, they are in the PJ64 Manual Glossary under F.

[squall_leonhart]

i can feel the difference between Pal Zelda (50FiPS/17FrPS) and NTSC Zelda (60FiPS/20FrPS)

Pal Zelda feels sluggish with a controller, and MasterQuest for some reason you can feel it much more

[Iconoclast]

Bare in mind that what looks like 60 FPS to you and what it looks like to other people is completely subjective. Some people are extremely aware of the low framerate, for example, in Ocarina of Time in-game, and some other people may not be able to perceive it at all. I personally, can just about perceive the difference between NTSC F-Zero X's smoothness (60 Frames Per Second in-game), and NTSC Ocarina of Time (just 20 Frames Per Second in-game, or three fold 'less smooth').

Some people may expect some games like Goldeneye to have a consistent framerate throughout, and so can perceive slowdowns (when the variable framerate in-game dips below their threshold of perception) and think this is a bug or a problem. However, these slowdowns are mostly normal to the real N64 and cannot be solved whichever emulator/plugin you use. If you are not getting 60V/Is (causing a slowdown), then that is definitely a emulator/plugin/low spec PC problem.

For full definitions of fields, fields per second and frames per second, they are in the PJ64 Manual Glossary under F.Ah, thank you. Gotta use that glossary more often....

Yeah, but then there's the very beginning of the GoldenEye ROM. When you first start the ROM, wait for the logo to pass, and when those white circles start sliding in and Bond's theme starts playing, observe the video-audio sync. Now, try playing the game on the actual N64 in this exact area, and observe the video-audio sync. The N64 successfully slows emulation down, while Project64 does not. Is this an exception to the 20 FPS emulation Project64 usually succeeds at in the game?

[squall_leonhart]

this is actually known to zilmar and jabo and i think they've looked into it.... but i don't know if anything has come of it.

it is likely a core timing issue as it occured on the leaked 1.7 build, when i was checking it out.... it doesn't have the 1.7 core so it was using the 1.6 core.....

Clements don't you have 1.7? maybe you can check it out?

[Clements]

I agree with Squall, what you are describing there could be an inconsistency in the core timing in PJ64 (the emulation methods used by PJ64/1964/Mupen64 are world's apart from certain cycle-accurate emulators for less complex systems such as Nintendulator for NES, so this stuff is not to be unexpected). Many other games such as Bomberman 64 have a similar problem in PJ64 1.6 in the intro where the music is going too fast compared to the game and appears to 'finish too early'.

Clements don't you have 1.7? maybe you can check it out?

I don't have 1.7 as yet, but I hope to donate in the future.

[squall_leonhart]

actually, now that you mention it... the Majora's mask intro is too fast as well.

im 95% sure of it :|

[Iconoclast]

I agree with Squall, what you are describing there could be an inconsistency in the core timing in PJ64 (the emulation methods used by PJ64/1964/Mupen64 are world's apart from certain cycle-accurate emulators for less complex systems such as Nintendulator for NES, so this stuff is not to be unexpected). Many other games such as Bomberman 64 have a similar problem in PJ64 1.6 in the intro where the music is going too fast compared to the game and appears to 'finish too early'Yeah, it's almost certainly core timing. I tried changing the Counter Factor option, from 1 to 6, still didn't fix it, but the audio-video synching definitely changed in the intro, just not to perfection.

As for Bomberman 64, I don't know if you remember way back then, when I posted this, but the intro sync issue can be fixed by changing the Counter Factor option to 1, a little something that has been added to the RDB.Changed CF option from 2 to 1 (thanks Iconoclast).Or it went at least something like that.

[Clements]

Just found out the reason why I was confused about this game: The PAL version of Bomberman 64 has subtlety different intro music to the NTSC version, so the NTSC version 'appeared desynced' to me.

The PAL version repeats the 'dun-a dun, da da da dun' part at the beginning of the intro music four times (getting louder each time) instead of two in the NTSC version. Try them to see what I mean. The PAL version of the Intro music is exactly how I remembered it. Interesting.

[Iconoclast]

That's the first time I've noticed a difference in the music used in the same game but different country versions.

[Doomulation]

Just for the record, we need to separate the two terms, FPS and VI/s.

FPS, or Frames Per Second is how many times per second the GAME updates the screen.
Fields Per Second, or the more technical correct term, VI/s, Vertical Interrupts per Second is how many times the actual console (or emulator in this case) updates the screen.

Since TVs run @ 50 and 60 Hz respectively (that means 50 or 60 updates of the screen per second), the console itself must update at that rate too (which is also why I'm guessing that games use a framerate dividable by that amount). Vertical Interrupt is a technical term that describes an interrupt in a system.

So yes, a game runs at 60 VI/s (or 50 for PAL), yet runs at a different FPS, depending on the game. Zelda runs @ 20 FPS and F-Zero runs at 60 FPS.
This should clear things up. Btw, as you may have understood by now, PJ's "FPS" counter at the bottom is actually VI/s.

[Iconoclast]

Alright, I get it, now.

'Dividizable'? You meant 'divisible', right? Man, it's not like I haven't seen a typo before, but it just sounds funny!

[Doomulation]

I think "dividable" is the correct term :P

[Iconoclast]

I think "dividable" is the correct term :PDividable: capable of being divided; divisible.

Meaning, both are correct. Although, 'dividizable' sounds like some sort of gangster remix of the word. Done laughing now.:(

[Coredo]

Woah... This topic makes me even more confused about the frames per second and fields per second than I was before. >_>

I always thought that 1 frame was about 2 field. >_<

[Doomulation]

They're different terms, and I explained what they both are on the last page. Still unsure?

[SubCog]

understand that unlike pc games, which are designed to run on a variety of machines, most n64 devs built the game entirely for the n64. They didn't code in such a way that a faster cpu could run their game faster. In fact, just the opposite, in optimizing the game to its fullest, they wrote code that was designed ONLY to run at a certain speed.

Because of this, the frames per second is directly linked to the gamespeed. Emulating the game at a faster fps is easy, as long as you're willing to play in fastforward. Think of it this way: All the same calculations are being done, whether its on the n64 or an emulator, so doing them faster means the game moves faster.

The hope is that very clever emulator programmers will be able to code hacks to allow games to run smoother than they were designed to run on the n64. However this kind of hack would likely have to be implimented on a per-game basis, with varying results.

Also consider that even if some very clever emu programmers did impliment such a fix and it worked perfectly, there are other parts of the game that you simply can't add extra fps to. You can't add frames of animation to models, for example, which have been hand animated at 20 fps. Also, many of the particle effects are coded to run at 20 fps. Explosions and other sprites only have so many frames of animation. Even if you got the core gameplay to run smooth as butter, other things will still look a tad bit funny.

[squall_leonhart]

HLE = Emulate the Game. (bios can be bypassed)
LLE = Emulate the Hardware. (usually requires the consoles bios)

[goldeneyepd fan]

man i have an eye for stutter and as long as the fields per second is at 60 (or 50 if its a pal game)

its smooth.... sure pal games do seem slower though...
Yeah, he's kinda right. I have an American RR64 and a PAL one, and the intro to the PAL one lagged a bit.