Wii Virtual Console

[SamuraiMushroom]

I was excited to test out the N64 virtual console on the Wii, noting that the Wii uses a Radeon graphics card (and with this a DX API), so I was wondering how much of the N64 graphics they could actually pull off.

So eh, I suppose this is just for discussion of the Wii's emulator.

Questions:
I'm sure other people know the answers already, but I have a couple prominent questions.
Does the emulator use a stand alone emulator for each game to maximize compatibility?
How does the graphics API work, and does it directly interface with DX, or does it use it's own special 3D system?
Are they going to add some more freaking games any time soon?

What I've noticed:
The things that I've looked out for on the graphics was the frame buffer emulation and motion blur, seeing as these were pretty much the two most difficult things to emulate. In terms of frame buffer emulation it appears to be seamless, all the shadows and other effects show up very well. However, the motion blur appears to not be quite the same as the original. If any of you own a Wii, and are willing to front the 10$ for Star Fox, I noted that when you select an item on the menu, the cool motion blur effect of it scrolling up doesn't really look the same. Infact it looks kinda crappy. Of course, I'm sure few people would really bother to notice this, but then again we are all here on a forum to talk about the games we can't get over. The fps is immaculate, and things don't draw in the wrong error and such. I suppose it would be pretty easy to pull it off considering they undoubtedly have the source to the old N64 API.

In terms of using the emulator, the first thing I considered was if anyone would be bold enough to rip it and try to get it working on a PC. I'm not sure if the Wii uses an OS of any specific kind, but I'm somewhat sure that there wouldn't be large compatibility issues. However I'm sure ripping the emulator would be lawsuits galore.


Either way I don't have a really good idea what I'm talking about, so I'm giving you all a chance to tell me how wrong I am


Anyways, discuss and such.

 

[Doomulation]

Are they going to add some more freaking games any time soon?

Well, you'd have to ask Nintendo. But I believe they're upgrading and re-programming the games to destroy the old looks and feel. And of course to remove bugs and copyright thingys and you know, the basic stuff, removing the original feel and look and make something completely new and retarded.

What I've noticed:
The things that I've looked out for on the graphics was the frame buffer emulation and motion blur, seeing as these were pretty much the two most difficult things to emulate. In terms of frame buffer emulation it appears to be seamless, all the shadows and other effects show up very well. However, the motion blur appears to not be quite the same as the original. If any of you own a Wii, and are willing to front the 10$ for Star Fox, I noted that when you select an item on the menu, the cool motion blur effect of it scrolling up doesn't really look the same. Infact it looks kinda crappy. Of course, I'm sure few people would really bother to notice this, but then again we are all here on a forum to talk about the games we can't get over. The fps is immaculate, and things don't draw in the wrong error and such. I suppose it would be pretty easy to pull it off considering they undoubtedly have the source to the old N64 API.

I believe Nintendo has released new versions of the Virtual Console itself, which would suggest the Virtual Console is an emulator by itself, and the games are original, no emulator, only game.

In terms of using the emulator, the first thing I considered was if anyone would be bold enough to rip it and try to get it working on a PC. I'm not sure if the Wii uses an OS of any specific kind, but I'm somewhat sure that there wouldn't be large compatibility issues. However I'm sure ripping the emulator would be lawsuits galore.

Whaaat? Not big compability issues? Are you serious?
Of course Revolution uses some OS of specific kind and it's not Microsoft Windows. Plus the Revolution is not a PC! It does not have PC architecture and does not have an x86/x64 CPU either!
There's no way you'll get the VC running on a PC... not without heavy emulation.

 

[Tagrineth]

It's also not a Radeon, it's a modification of the specially designed Flipper LSI designed by ArtX (not ATi) for the GameCube.

In other words, the rendering code would likely be 100% incompatible with anything on the PC.

 

[Bluesummers]

Well, you'd have to ask Nintendo. But I believe they're upgrading and re-programming the games to destroy the old looks and feel. And of course to remove bugs and copyright thingys and you know, the basic stuff, removing the original feel and look and make something completely new and retarded.

Why are people so against having new textures and things? Do you not like the texturing projects for Rice's plugin either?

 

[SamuraiMushroom]

Whaaat? Not big compability issues? Are you serious?
Of course Revolution uses some OS of specific kind and it's not Microsoft Windows. Plus the Revolution is not a PC! It does not have PC architecture and does not have an x86/x64 CPU either!
There's no way you'll get the VC running on a PC... not without heavy emulation.

I think the application would just need emulation to start, and possibly some to emulate the Wii API. It's still all machine code after all.

Why are people so against having new textures and things? Do you not like the texturing projects for Rice's plugin either?

I haven't seen any changes in the textures actually. The games appear to be entirely unmodified.

It's also not a Radeon, it's a modification of the specially designed Flipper LSI designed by ArtX (not ATi) for the GameCube.

In other words, the rendering code would likely be 100% incompatible with anything on the PC.

That's odd, cause I'm looking at the ATI logo on the side of my Wii right now.

 

[jackschmidt]

That's odd, cause I'm looking at the ATI logo on the side of my Wii right now.

The Gamecube flipper is designed by ArtX. ArtX was bought by ATi and hence the Gamecube has the ATi sticker.

What I would not know is if the Hollywood GPU is based of the flipper specs or some other custom built card. But there is reason to believe it's a modified version of the Flipper.

 

[Doomulation]

Why are people so against having new textures and things? Do you not like the texturing projects for Rice's plugin either?

To be honest, the games look so much better on the real hardware because of the blur (which was a hardware limitation, I believe). Though I'm not against hi-res textures. But I do prefer the real N64 over PC emulation. Zelda 64 looks so much better, for example... Of course, that was when I had a 64. Meh. So far as I know, it was sold or thrown away...

But I prefer to keep things exactly as they were--no modifications. To graphics anyway. Online play for multiplayer and that might be nice, though.

I think the application would just need emulation to start, and possibly some to emulate the Wii API. It's still all machine code after all.

Come on, it's a completely different architecture. Do you really think it's possible to run the code without emulation? It wouldn't work right.

 

[Tagrineth]

I think the application would just need emulation to start, and possibly some to emulate the Wii API. It's still all machine code after all.

Machine code is just that, code made specifically for the machine it's being run on. x86 machine code will not work on a PowerPC processor. Wii machine code will not run on an Xbox 360.

That's odd, cause I'm looking at the ATI logo on the side of my Wii right now.

Shortly before the GameCube launched, ArtX was purchased by ATi. The ArtX Flipper LSI was kept in the GameCube as-is with no modification from ATi (it was too late to do so), but the Wii's GPU is simply an ATi-reengineered derivative of the Flipper chip.

What I would not know is if the Hollywood GPU is based of the flipper specs or some other custom built card. But there is reason to believe it's a modified version of the Flipper.

It's definitely a modified Flipper, it even still has the TEV engine. The Wii actually runs GameCube code natively because its architecture is so close.

 

[Bluesummers]

To be honest, the games look so much better on the real hardware because of the blur (which was a hardware limitation, I believe). Though I'm not against hi-res textures. But I do prefer the real N64 over PC emulation. Zelda 64 looks so much better, for example... Of course, that was when I had a 64. Meh. So far as I know, it was sold or thrown away...

But I prefer to keep things exactly as they were--no modifications. To graphics anyway. Online play for multiplayer and that might be nice, though.

Eh I agree sort of. The 3D stuff (models and such) look alot sharper and I hate that, but I still prefer the higher res textures.

 

[SamuraiMushroom]

To be honest, the games look so much better on the real hardware because of the blur (which was a hardware limitation, I believe). Though I'm not against hi-res textures. But I do prefer the real N64 over PC emulation. Zelda 64 looks so much better, for example... Of course, that was when I had a 64. Meh. So far as I know, it was sold or thrown away...

But I prefer to keep things exactly as they were--no modifications. To graphics anyway. Online play for multiplayer and that might be nice, though.


Come on, it's a completely different architecture. Do you really think it's possible to run the code without emulation? It wouldn't work right.

When you say "blur" do you mean the fact that old TVs had a low resolution, therefore the image appeared softened? In example, none of the old glames had Anti-Aliasing, because they didn't need it. On the TV you couldn't see it at all. However, now that HD stuff is coming out, the need for AA is more prominent. Sadly, the Wii doesn't use it, so everything is all edgy. The Xbox 360 does though.

Also, I didn't mean 0 emulation. I was under the impression that the Wii's architecture was similar to that of computers, considering the interfacing it does. Heck, the Xbox 360 uses Media Center. Either way, I think if done correctly the emulation would be simple stand-ins for functions. Machine code has about 12 functions, if you could emulate those perfectly, then the rest would work on it's own.

 

[synch]

(...) Either way, I think if done correctly the emulation would be simple stand-ins for functions. Machine code has about 12 functions, if you could emulate those perfectly, then the rest would work on it's own.

No, that's completely wrong. Different architecture means having to emulate it on the host machine. About machine code having about 12 functions, that's total nonsense. Seriously, your speculations are VERY wrong.

 

[Doomulation]

When you say "blur" do you mean the fact that old TVs had a low resolution, therefore the image appeared softened? In example, none of the old glames had Anti-Aliasing, because they didn't need it. On the TV you couldn't see it at all. However, now that HD stuff is coming out, the need for AA is more prominent. Sadly, the Wii doesn't use it, so everything is all edgy. The Xbox 360 does though.

The image looks more soft and blurry. Compare Zelda64 on an N64 and on an emulator. You'll see.
You seem to understand AA wrong. With higher resolutions, there will be less need for AA. What AA does is upsample the picture to a very high resolution, smooth out the edges and convert it back. With more pixels, you can get a good picture without sharp edges.
Yes, when upsampling low resolution, AA may be needed... though I'm not sure the VC runs the games in their native resolution or not...

Also, I didn't mean 0 emulation. I was under the impression that the Wii's architecture was similar to that of computers, considering the interfacing it does. Heck, the Xbox 360 uses Media Center. Either way, I think if done correctly the emulation would be simple stand-ins for functions. Machine code has about 12 functions, if you could emulate those perfectly, then the rest would work on it's own.

No, no, no, no! You understand nothing of architectures and emulation! The Revolution is NOT a computer, the Xbox 360 is NOT a computer and the PS3 is NOT a computer. Computer as in a PC, that is. They have completely different architecture. They don't work the same way. Not even one bit. The first thing you need to understand is that you don't need a PC architecture to do stuff like play games. Every console is different. Even DVD players are not PCs. They all use different architectures.
And machine code is not just 12 instructions. Once again, you seem to understand very little. Machine code can be hundreds of instructions (and now we're not talking about GPU instructions either). And you needn't just emulate the CPU, but the rest of the architecture as well!
The Revolution does not work like a PC does, so just emulating the CPU wouldn't work!
Yes, if we could emulate the Revolution architecture perfectly, we'd have access to one heck of an emulator platform, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. The Revolution is just like any other machine - it's going to take time to figure out and emulate.

 

[Tagrineth]

You're completely wrong about anti-aliasing. The N64 did in fact use it, and very heavily at that in many games.

Thank you, good game.

Also even though, for example, the 360 uses a windows media center kernel, games are still coded with 360-specific compilers because the system doesn't use an x86 processor. 360 code absolutely cannot run on an x86 based system (ie intel, amd) without being recompiled at a basic level, and at that point you're completely re-writing all the original code.

 

[SamuraiMushroom]

Long time since this thread was touched, but eh, I jump in and out of emulation sprees depending on what games are being played. I don't think it's too dead, and I'm really only posting to make less of an ass out of myself.
I do know very little, and I often make arguments based on very little. Bad habit.
Either way, I appreciate the clarification, and I feel pretty silly. I just assumed that newer game systems were running on architextures similar to that of a computer.

The image looks more soft and blurry. Compare Zelda64 on an N64 and on an emulator. You'll see.
You seem to understand AA wrong. With higher resolutions, there will be less need for AA. What AA does is upsample the picture to a very high resolution, smooth out the edges and convert it back. With more pixels, you can get a good picture without sharp edges.
Yes, when upsampling low resolution, AA may be needed... though I'm not sure the VC runs the games in their native resolution or not...

Well, you and wikipedia are definitely right.. but then how come on my old fat 1024x768 monitor, with it's TV-like pixles, didn't need anti-aliasing (to my happiness) while on this new, 1280x1024 LCD screen, the aliasing is very very prominent. Similarly to the way the n64 is on my plasma TV and the way it is on my regular TV. It's not at all that I doubt you, I just don't get it.

You're completely wrong about anti-aliasing. The N64 did in fact use it, and very heavily at that in many games.

Thank you, good game.

To clarify, are we talking about full scene anti-aliasing, or just anti-aliasing of sprites, etc.

Thanks for your informative, albiet somewhat sarcastic replies. I want to know more about emulation, since I do dabble in it enough, and I don't want to get caught looking stupid again :V
Emulation ties in some with what I do and plan to do, because I program. Sadly, among most of you this isn't saying much, because I haven't jumped beyond scripting languages like actionscript, and lua. I'm learning C++ right now from a book, but in about a week I'm going to start a junior college class on it. However, correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't bet he first time) but doesn't a majority of emulation deal with assembly, what with reversing and such? I know hacking roms does, but in that case you start with something to work with, as where emulation you would have to start from scratch. Still amazes me that people can pull this stuff off, determining how the systems communicate etc.

Well right, time to shush.

 

[Doomulation]

Long time since this thread was touched, but eh, I jump in and out of emulation sprees depending on what games are being played. I don't think it's too dead, and I'm really only posting to make less of an ass out of myself.
I do know very little, and I often make arguments based on very little. Bad habit.
Either way, I appreciate the clarification, and I feel pretty silly. I just assumed that newer game systems were running on architextures similar to that of a computer.

So long as you provide a good argument, bumping a thread isn't considered bad.

Well, you and wikipedia are definitely right.. but then how come on my old fat 1024x768 monitor, with it's TV-like pixles, didn't need anti-aliasing (to my happiness) while on this new, 1280x1024 LCD screen, the aliasing is very very prominent. Similarly to the way the n64 is on my plasma TV and the way it is on my regular TV. It's not at all that I doubt you, I just don't get it.

Not sure what you're hinting at... you say it didn't need AA - does that mean it's blurry or sharp, emulation-like or TV-like?

Thanks for your informative, albiet somewhat sarcastic replies. I want to know more about emulation, since I do dabble in it enough, and I don't want to get caught looking stupid again :V
Emulation ties in some with what I do and plan to do, because I program. Sadly, among most of you this isn't saying much, because I haven't jumped beyond scripting languages like actionscript, and lua. I'm learning C++ right now from a book, but in about a week I'm going to start a junior college class on it.

To me, it doesn't matter if you're a guru or not. You come here to share, to ask and to spend time and that is all that counts. We will be happy to answer your questions.

However, correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't bet he first time) but doesn't a majority of emulation deal with assembly, what with reversing and such? I know hacking roms does, but in that case you start with something to work with, as where emulation you would have to start from scratch. Still amazes me that people can pull this stuff off, determining how the systems communicate etc.

Well right, time to shush.

Well... yes and no. It all depends on how you do it. An interpreter is usually very easy to do in C/C++, but a recompiler is pretty hard, I imagine, to do without assembly. Sure, the instructions of the target CPU is really assembly, we usually do emulate them in C/C++.
It depends on how you want to do it and what system you're targeting. This is what I believe anyway. There is no emulator that cannot be done in C/C++.

 

[SamuraiMushroom]

Not sure what you're hinting at... you say it didn't need AA - does that mean it's blurry or sharp, emulation-like or TV-like?

It's softened, so though the edges ARE jagged, it's hard to notice. It's more TV like. Basically what I'm saying is that my old VGA monitor, along with regular televisions have a more blurred/softened image, so AA can be somewhat unecessary. However, on a higher resolution/image quality screen, like LCD or plasma, the lack of FSAA is very very prominent. Not to mention the pixelatedness of the spirtes is more noticable. Zelda's title logo on the HD looks terrible in comparison to the regular television.

 

[Doomulation]

It's softened, so though the edges ARE jagged, it's hard to notice. It's more TV like. Basically what I'm saying is that my old VGA monitor, along with regular televisions have a more blurred/softened image, so AA can be somewhat unecessary. However, on a higher resolution/image quality screen, like LCD or plasma, the lack of FSAA is very very prominent. Not to mention the pixelatedness of the spirtes is more noticable. Zelda's title logo on the HD looks terrible in comparison to the regular television.

This is because it's upsampled. Basically, those pixels are enlarged, so it becomes edgy and jagged. To solve that, you use AA. Upsampling is the first stage of AA.

 

[SamuraiMushroom]

This is because it's upsampled. Basically, those pixels are enlarged, so it becomes edgy and jagged. To solve that, you use AA. Upsampling is the first stage of AA.

Meaning, the pixels are meant to be on a lower resolution, but are being rendered on a higher resolution, thus needing to be spread out across several pixels instead of just one?

 

[Doomulation]

Correct. Usually, when doing this, you would use a filter to smooth out the textures or graphics, but when you don't, that is the result you get.