Naomi 2 Force Feedback In Development?

[blackberriesand]

First off I want to thank the DEMUL team for its development on the Naomi 2 emulation! Many Sega driving game fans from all over are overjoyed!

Has there been or will there be any progress in the force feedback steering department?

I know people that would pay (including myself) for force feedback development for games such as Initial D 3 Arcade Stage.

Cheerio,

 

[MetalliC]

thanks.
sorry, but no, no motor-board emulation in development, mainly because it IMO pointless.
arcade wheels in most cases can be fully controlled by motor board, upto turn full right or left.
in home-class input devices "force feedback" is just pathetic vibrator, so pointless...

 

[blackberriesand]

thanks.
sorry, but no, no motor-board emulation in development, mainly because it IMO pointless.
arcade wheels in most cases can be fully controlled by motor board, upto turn full right or left.
in home-class input devices "force feedback" is just pathetic vibrator, so pointless...

I'm not sure I understand. The PC steering wheels are capable of a lot more than just providing vibrations. Providing real time steering feedback from in game physics. Even cheap low end Logitech USB based steering wheels have advanced force feedback.

Most (if not all) Sega driving games on the Naomi 2 use real time force feedback. Maybe I'm using the wrong term? The steering "friction" is adjusted in real time, along with directional changes due to impact, road surface, traction level, steering angle, velocity, etc.

 

[MetalliC]

vibration, friction, whatever... I was trying to tell - motor(s) connected to arcade racing wheels is far more capable than just some frictions as you say.
so lets imagine - I've emulated motorboard (its internal CPU program), but is there any benefits ? because your wheel force feedback thing physically can't do all the things motor connected to arcade wheel can do.

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if its still not clear - in many arcade games no "force feedback" as you understand it, but (big) motor connected to steering wheel. this motor can do with the wheel any kind of things, up to drive instead of you/player lol

 

[blackberriesand]

vibration, friction, whatever... I was trying to tell - motor(s) connected to arcade racing wheels is far more capable than just some frictions as you say.
so lets imagine - I've emulated motorboard (its internal CPU program), but is there any benefits ? because your wheel force feedback thing physically can't do all the things motor connected to arcade wheel can do.

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if its still not clear - in many arcade games no "force feedback" as you understand it, but (big) motor connected to steering wheel. this motor can do with the wheel any kind of things, up to drive instead of you/player lol

I understand what you're saying, but I believe you may have a misunderstanding of console and PC steering wheels.

I'm quite positive that all modern force feedback steering wheels can do everything the arcade steering motor can do. Even low end cheaper models, even models several years old (from the PS2 era). We've come a VERY long way with PC force feedback steering wheels. Please look into it further .

For example, just so you can see basic mechanics (skip to 0:53), here is a Logitech Driving Force GT (PS2/PS3 wheel from 2007):


Also, all modern feedback steering wheels are universally compatible, so they must use a universal code of some sort. If you were program for a single steering wheel it should in theory work for almost all.

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Start watching this video at 7:15 :


Whatever game is in this video is a very bad example of good feedback, but you can see the mechanics of the wheel in action. And these are cheap low end wheels. There is a HUGE market for high end wheels which are mostly used in PC sim racing.

All games that support force feedback universally support all force feedback steering wheels. Therefore, the code going to the wheel (or the wheel's drivers/software) from each game is in the same basic format. All that needs to be done is the code that is sent to the Naomi 2 steering motor board needs to be converted to the standard PC code for steering wheels. I know, it's easier said than done.

 

[MetalliC]

Ok, I see there is some number of good enough PC/PS racing wheels, but how many Demul users have one of them ? I see Amazon prices like $400 or $800, so I'd guess 2-5
usually people have low-end wheels, which miss advanced force feedback capabilities, like number of such devices passed through my hands. so I still don't think it worth to bother with.

All games that support force feedback universally support all force feedback steering wheels. Therefore, the code going to the wheel (or the wheel's drivers/software) from each game is in the same basic format.

haha. is this based on personal experience or pure speculation ?
if some device "just works" in games this doesn't mean it works automagically, usually there is implemented special support for it. (ie developers had ALOT of various hardware and software setups, developers tested games on them, and implemented typical for PC games dozens of HW/SW glitches workarounds or quirks)
I'd bet racing wheel devices case is not any different.

in any way, none of Demul developers have one such wheels, this means no one will work on FFB emulation even in theory.

 

[blackberriesand]

Ok, I see there is some number of good enough PC/PS racing wheels, but how many Demul users have one of them ? I see Amazon prices like $400 or $800, so I'd guess 2-5
usually people have low-end wheels, which miss advanced force feedback capabilities, like number of such devices passed through my hands. so I still don't think it worth to bother with.


haha. is this based on personal experience or pure speculation ?
if some device "just works" in games this doesn't mean it works automagically, usually there is implemented special support for it. (ie developers had ALOT of various hardware and software setups, developers tested games on them, and implemented typical for PC games dozens of HW/SW glitches workarounds or quirks)
I'd bet racing wheel devices case is not any different.

in any way, none of Demul developers have one such wheels, this means no one will work on FFB emulation even in theory.

A high end wheel isn't necessary for basic FFB function. Most modern console logitech wheels do an excellent job, and are VERY cheap, nowhere near $400 or $800, more like $20 to $150 (depending on the model). But really, most people already have their Playstation and Xbox "Gran Turismo" and "Forza" bundled steering wheels which are simply re-labelled logitech wheels that have full PC compatibility. These are the wheels people primarily use for PC as they are cheap, there are tonnes of them out there, and they are even cheaper used.

Go take a look at https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=demul+initial+d , everyone is using a common, and cheap Logitech Xbox or PS2/3/4 wheel. Amazon prices aren't accurate.

Yes, I'm speculating, I'm no programmer. But look at the facts. I would say over 95% of users use a Logitech branded wheel, the niche market that uses the other high end brands is VERY small and probably not interested in NAOMI 2 emulation. PS2 generation Logitech wheels to current generation are pretty much almost completely compatible. Logitech uses a single program to manage all their force feedback wheels. It is highly likely that coding for a popular current console Logitech wheel will allow at least the basis for most Logitech steering wheel compatibility. Even if DEMUL Initial D users were forced to go out and buy one specific common Logitech wheel to have FFB work, they would do it. These wheels aren't at all expensive and there are plenty used on ebay, craigslist, gumtree, kijiji, etc.

Like many DEMUL users, what brought DEMUL to my attention was the NAOMI 2 emulation for Initial D. There is a HUGE amount of love for Initial D 1-3. Up till recently the only option was to buy a whole cabinet. I am actually in the process of collecting all the NAOMI 2 hardware to run outside of the cabinet with my own display and speakers.


I would gladly pay for the steering wheel for a DEMUL developer to take a look. I would even pay for multiple wheels if more than one developer was interested in working on it.

Have a look into the Initial D Arcade Stage cult following, it's HUGE. These machines are now long gone from public spaces and no-one cares for the modern versions (4+). The only reason people still play 4 and above is because 1-3 cannot be found anymore. There is no need to code for each version, Version 3 is unilaterally the most preferred version by everyone.

You guys got the emulation perfect, and then added card reader support, the last part is the force feedback, it's what makes the game.

 

[isamu]

WOW. I have to say in all honesty I am extremely shocked and disappointed at the comments made by MetalliC. Blackberrisand has already said everything I wanted to say and then some.

MatalliC....I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are a lot of people with modern steering wheels that are capable of delivering force feedback the exact same way the games from Naomi intended to deliver them. I have a Leo Bodnar FFB wheel, that is even BETTER than any arcade FFB wheel from Sega or any arcade hardware other company. It cost me over $4,000USD and because of various talented and generous people in the emulation community, I can now use this wheel to play a lot of my favorite Sega arcade games with FULL force feedback such as Daytona USA, Daytona 2, Super GT, Sega Rally, and OutRun 2. All those games feel wondering and are extremely fun to play because they all support force feedback. I would not play them without it.

The fact that you believe there isn't enough people wanting to play Sega's Naomi arcade racers because they don't own "high quality" steering wheels is heartbreaking. Please consider changing your position on this issue sir. I certainly very much would like to play Sega's Naomi arcade racers with my Bodnar FFB wheel and would kindly donate a nice sum if it ever becomes a reality.

 

[blackberriesand]

WOW. I have to say in all honesty I am extremely shocked and disappointed at the comments made by MetalliC. Blackberrisand has already said everything I wanted to say and then some.

MatalliC....I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are a lot of people with modern steering wheels that are capable of delivering force feedback the exact same way the games from Naomi intended to deliver them. I have a Leo Bodnar FFB wheel, that is even BETTER than any arcade FFB wheel from Sega or any arcade hardware other company. It cost me over $4,000USD and because of various talented and generous people in the emulation community, I can now use this wheel to play a lot of my favorite Sega arcade games with FULL force feedback such as Daytona USA, Daytona 2, Super GT, Sega Rally, and OutRun 2. All those games feel wondering and are extremely fun to play because they all support force feedback. I would not play them without it.

The fact that you believe there isn't enough people wanting to play Sega's Naomi arcade racers because they don't own "high quality" steering wheels is heartbreaking. Please consider changing your position on this issue sir. I certainly very much would like to play Sega's Naomi arcade racers with my Bodnar FFB wheel and would kindly donate a nice sum if it ever becomes a reality.

Nice to see a fellow arcade racer enthusiast, Sega arcade racers are by far my most favorite . You've basically listed all my favorites, only one missing is Initial D!

I always had the plan of buying a cabinet but have recently downsized and no longer have the room. Emulation is my only option. I don't think I'm the only one, I'm sure many others don't have the room or even finances to purchase and maintain a driving cabinet.

I'm sure there are tens of thousands of people using basic Logitech G25/G27 wheel for emulation and sim racing. They sold a zillion of them, plenty of aftermarket support, parts availability, and many on the used market for very cheap. It's the wheel that most people (if not all) are currently using with DEMUL for Initial D. It is by far the most popular video game steering wheel.

I have an idea which can make your offer more appealing, perhaps significantly increasing the likelihood of force feedback development for NAOMI 2 emulation. If your up for it, we can take this "nice sum", or part of it, and place it in escrow for the DEMUL team. The terms obviously being a completed force feedback support for DEMUL NAOMI 2. What do you think?

My offer still stands for the funds for the steering wheel(s) for the DEMUL team to work on this project.

Is the whole team located in Russia?

 

[MetalliC]

I can tell you with 100% certainty that there are a lot of people with modern steering wheels that are capable of delivering force feedback the exact same way the games from Naomi intended to deliver them. I have a Leo Bodnar FFB wheel, that is even BETTER than any arcade FFB wheel from Sega or any arcade hardware other company.

are you sure ? how about 18 Wheeler, Wave Runner GP, Route 66, ATV Track, or heh Airline Pilots ?

no doubts, your cool wheel is good enough for racing car wheel simulation, like Initial D or Ferrari 355. but I highly doubt it can simulate big truck wheel, or bike handle, etc same good as arcade machine. I'd bet comparison result will be similar to real women VS rubber v_agina

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Is the whole team located in Russia?

I think it was stated in couple other threads here - atm here is no team, during last few years no active members except (maybe) me.
"maybe" because I'm also involved in MAME and several others arcade preservation or research projects.

so, as you may imagine - FFB simulation is very least of tasks needed to be done. here much more really important stuff still not implemented or not fixed. but I have very few spare time for this.

 

[ginzu]

+1 i really think lot of people who are interested by the emulators, are interested in recover the sensation from the arcade at home. So if possible, it will be awesome one day that demul can perform the ffb. Because the racing games library proposed by demul deserve that someone devote onself to it.
I personally own a dfgt (logitech) and really hope one day , someone add the ffb to this excellent emulator.

I think too that you need help to work on this project. I can't help u infortunatelly. But could you tell me what is the coding language for demul? His it ''C language" thanks.

Bye

 

[Gondar]

Would it not be possible to just add API hooks to get access to whatever the game would spit out to the FFB midi board? Let the community add support for whatever wheel they want with something like Mamehooker. I know it's not that easy, but wouldn't that be a good compromise?

I for one are one of those with a steering wheel, just waiting for FFB support. We are a lot more than you seem to think.

Thank you for my favorite emulator btw.

 

[sky25es]

Would it not be possible to just add API hooks to get access to whatever the game would spit out to the FFB midi board? Let the community add support for whatever wheel they want with something like Mamehooker. I know it's not that easy, but wouldn't that be a good compromise?

I for one are one of those with a steering wheel, just waiting for FFB support. We are a lot more than you seem to think.

Thank you for my favorite emulator btw.

+1 On that.
Wheel & Joystick Forcefeedback, lamps output etc.. that could be used with Mamehooker, would be the ultimate feature for a perfect Arcade experience.

 

[Boomslangnz]

Wow those comments from Metallic are dissapointing.

I thought ffb was fairly common these days for any wheel based games. I have several wheels myself and everyone is capable of ffb. Other emulator's such as m2 emulator and supermodel both emulated the motor drive boards and are great to play on these wheels.

Please reconsider as I'm sure plenty of people would love to play these games with force feedback on our wheels at home

 

[blackberriesand]

So TeknoParrot has FFB support for Initial D 6 and Initial D 7.

What is it going to at least start FFB development for DEMUL. There are way too many good Sega Naomi arcade driving games.

Is there any way we could just get the code that gets sent out to the steering board? Seems there are many that would like to work on this project.

 

[MetalliC]

nothing changed since last year, so nothing going on.

I highly doubt there is many or even single person in this world who wish and capable of to work on this. i.e. research Sega 838-14174 "Servo motor drive board MIDI" used in Naomi2 games (*) capturing communication logs from real hardware, etc.
games is not sent some data to drive board, as you might be thinking, but they are "talking each other".
well, you can reverse engineer its comm protocol for the start

(*) Naomi 1 games uses other type drive boards, with game-specific firmware, so each game have its own communication protocol, not same for all games.

 

[Boomslangnz]

Ive added Force Feedback support to Demul for Initial D Arcade Stage 1,2 and 3 aswell as Nascar Racing

https://github.com/Boomslangnz/FFBArcadePlugin/releases

 

[anchounio]

Thanks Bloomslangnz !!!
version 2.1 with more DEMUL games supported.
He has even got rid of an error message DEMUL shows when connecting a logitech racing wheel

 

[Tarhsid]

I tried out the FBB plugin with Initial D ver. 3 using an Xbox controller. Just rumble alone makes it far more interesting to play. Seriously great work. Happy too see Third Stage is alive and well in 2020.