Open Source?

[DemulFan]

Greetings:

Am I correct in my assumption that Demul is closed-source? I haven't been able to find any source code repos on the web and not much source info is searchable here on the forums.

If Demul is closed-source only, have there been talks about opening it up to the community?

Just looking for confirmation. Don't thrash me too hard. Thanks.

 

[spotanjo3]

Hello. Yes, Demul is closed source only. No, they won't open it at all. Cheers!

 

[MetalliC]

from beginning Demul was open source, it's sources was published on sourceforge.
but there was no any interest from anyone, so it becomes 'private playground'.

community ? have no idea that you talking about, haven't seen any.

 

[DemulFan]

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[Formedras]

I found one project on Google Code, nothing on SourceForge.
Assuming the current closed source code is based on the Google Code project, Demul being closed-source and still having releases is in violation of the GNU GPL.

Basically, if you use GPL code, and you release binaries, you also have to release your modified source code.

 

[MetalliC]

feeling yourself Universe justice or smth ? please find another playground.

Basically, rights owners of the code, like in this case Wind or me or few other persons, may do whatever they want - release code under GPL or BSD today, make it closed source next day, release it under WTF/PL days later or license to someone for commercial usage, or anything else because it is theirs property.

so, please. stop talking about things you do not have any idea about

 

[Formedras]

So you're saying you're one of the original developers, back when it was on Google Code?
If that's true, then fine, there's no GPL violation here. But if you took up development and didn't obtain actual ownership of the original code...

- - - Updated - - -

Of course, considering the current political climate, you may want to consider going back to open-source anyway. Between Trump being a short-sighted ******* that may try (and ultimately fail; thankfully there are safeguards in place to prevent that from happening just on his say-so) to embargo Russian software, and Putin being a long-sighted ******* that wants to rule the world with an iron fist (not to mention Russia's very old reputation for malware), pretty soon a Russian closed-source software project is going to be regarded with extreme suspicion by Westerners.
Then again, considering your attitude, it does seem that you wouldn't give a damn about anything like that, and you wouldn't give a damn if 75% of your user base suddenly switched to an inferior emulator like Reicast because we don't feel like we can trust you to not knowingly spread malware.

 

[MetalliC]

in general - it is not your business. who you think you are to judge or condemn someone's actions ?

Demul is pure hobby private R&D project. I'm personally doesn't give a f*ck about user base, popularity and everything like that.

 

[nusii]

You know, Demul could have been great.It could have been ported to Linux, Android, MacOS, iOS and whatever else. Its performance could have been optimized and maybe someday even run on SBCs. It could have been added to RetroArch and become one of the best supported cores. It could have received improved shaders and custom frontends to power home-made arcades. But it won't be any of those things because the closed source basically stops all those possibilities from existing.

The emulation community is very different today compared to what it was years ago. We now have strong projects that did not exist or were not mature at that time. And Naomi+Atomiswave emulation is still one of the most requested ones around. So if the code is opened it can still happen.

I don't know how someone can think that a closed, hobby, private whatever project that will always burden one single person (and will be left to rot once there is no more time/interest - or worse, after a burnout) is a more interesting goal than being open to outside contributions even if most are small and we have to wait a long time before the big ones come. But I hope someday you can change your mind. Your code deffinitely would be very well-received by the emulation community.

 

[MetalliC]

good fantasy story, I've laughed a lot, thanks for that.

meanwhile in real life:
- lxdream, NullDC, Reicast - open source but all dead, was developed by original author(s) only, no any 3rd party contributions (except for non significant cosmetics).
- Redream - same as above, except not dead but became close source few month ago, because of: no any benefits (no 3rd party developer contributions) and conflict with RetroLeech/LeechRetro.

so, unlike your fantasies (or lie), in real life there is no any benefits for Dreamcast emulation project from becoming FOSS. moreover it looks like graveyard instead. there is also no any "emulation community" at all, I mean developers interested in DC/NAOMI/etc emulation.

 

[Yugi]

Funny thing is I was going to ask why did no one took the reins of nulldc and other projects that are already open source? That bothered me for a long time. Here I was thinking that NullDC was going to keep going strong that the source code got released, but the only thing that happened was some kind of GD-ROM audio bug being fixed since it affected games like Shenmue and Expendable. That was the only thing that happened since then.

 

[andreabogazzi]

Bad luck probably.
Is fine to think that open source is more an hassle than a good source of improvement for who owns and is already proficent with the code.
Is also true that opensource is the only way for other people to get interest and passion.

I perfectly understand metallic and other authors not opening the code for one or many reasons that are probably private and should stay private.

But saying that OS is not worth is wrong.
I'm an OS developer and i can confirm no one comes and help me more than comes and ask for help, but is also true that i embraced an abandoned project, i learned, i gave it other 4 years of life and counting, while if it stays close source it will finishes when the passion of the original authors finishes

Starting a dreamcast emu from scratch is 100 times harder than contributing to a working one, fresh eyes on problem often brings new opportunities of fixes. And people learn to write code.

Is also fine to be not so open to it and using your precious free time to code something and release it as an executable, is still something that you do for free and other can benefit

 

[einsteinx2]

Funny thing is I was going to ask why did no one took the reins of nulldc and other projects that are already open source? That bothered me for a long time. Here I was thinking that NullDC was going to keep going strong that the source code got released, but the only thing that happened was some kind of GD-ROM audio bug being fixed since it affected games like Shenmue and Expendable. That was the only thing that happened since then.

Actually the Reicast developers took the reins of nulldc. Or to be more specific, I believe most of the core dev team is the same. It's very much not dead and is under active development right now.

Here's a quote from their April progress report this year:

"nullDC was released in April 1st 2007 as a reverse April fool’s joke. That’s 11 years ago, to the day. Reicast, which is derived from nullDC, has crossed the 1 milion downloads in the Android store this month. It’s been a great ride, and we hope you’ve managed to relive childhood memories using these projects "

They seem to be focusing mainly on Android now, though it's technically supported on Windows, Mac, and Linux using either their CI builds, others' unofficial builds, or the RetroArch core. The RetroArch core though seems to be out of date with their latest work (they seem to have taken about a year off of development and resumed in March, and the libRetro core is from 2017 presumably one of the last builds before that happened).

So for frontends and whatnot, it's easy to use because of the RetroArch support, but the compatibility and emulation quality isn't quite up to Demul yet, though maybe one day... Not sure that says anything about open source specifically though, ore that the Demul devs are just really, really good. I currently use Demul for that using a bat script I wrote to handle hiding the mouse, starting an Autohotkey script to allow me to close the emulator using a controller button combo, and returning to the frontend.

Also Reicast has had a few dozen contributors since 2013 alone, though to MetalliC's point it does appear that most or all of the contributors outside of what looks like the core team wrote UI code or similar things, not core emulation improvements.

Anyway on topic, open sourcing is great for us users due to the inevitable RetroArch core and the fact that if the devs ever walk away, someone could pick up the project. However, MetalliC is 100% on point that open sourcing will basically get them no additional help, and as he mentioned they don't really care about the users (not making a judgement just stating a fact), then there isn't really any reason for them to open source it as they won't get much if any personal benefit. He's also correct that they can relicense it however they want, so no GPL violations, not that it would be enforceable anyway. So that's the end of that argument.

As a user, software developer, and Dreamcast fan, I'd love it if the most complete Dreamcast emulator was open source and had better support for frontends and whatnot, but it's their code and they can do whatever they want with it. I'm just happy I can use it at all and it works as well as it does, and most importantly that it's still being actively developed.

 

[MetalliC]

that was long and interesting post heh.
but, I'm suppose you missed my main point - is there was any emulation improvements in reicast since its release back in 2013, 4 and half years ago ? as far as I know - no. so, from end user perspective there is no any progress during all this years, despite the fact it is open source.

why ?

a bit of background: NullDC is created mainly by single person (drkRaziel), later he ported NullDC to Android/ARM/OpenGL and rename it to Raicast, same single person work.
there is no team in term of emulation developers.

 

[Yugi]

Hm. I do know about Reicast, but it is an android focused project with poor PC OS support outside of the retroarch core. I remember trying an PC build a long time ago, and I could not even get the thing to run at all. I guess I failed to mention Reicast because it was an android only thing at first, and I didn't even see it as a real successor to nulldc. I never really bothered with it again since it is underdeveloped anyway comparing to nulldc and Demul.