The State of N64 Emulation

[Grant64]

Almost 1 year ago today we all buzzed in anticipation for the release of PJ64 1.4, a bench mark in emulation, since then Azi has left the scene. Lemmy has also gone and PJ 64 is no more! N64 emulation is in a sorry state.

Admittedly DC emulation is improving day by day and Saturn emulation is coming through but they just don't match the spirit of N64 emulation . Maybe it was cos the games were free and small in size or maybe it was cos all the guys on emutalk were nice (Except Smiff who would lay into everything non PJ64 related) I guess the real question is. Is N64 emulation seeing its final hours or is there much left in the pipeline!

I feel sad to see the scene dwindelling like it is, as I have enjoyed following it.

 

[Remote]

Do you see any fat ladies? I don't, so it's to early to throw in the towel... Lately a lot of skilled people have left but there is still life in the scene -> 1964, Daedalus, tr64 and uHLE2... At the moment uHLE2 is what intriges me the most since I don't know what to expect from it and for the rest, there are still a couple of milestones which are yet to be broken...

 

[Doomulation]

And yet, the emulation scene is at a state of which it's almost complete. Compability has an incredibly high rate. What more could you ask for?

 

[Grant64]

I think thats what I mean - Completion means the end of the fun! Yes UHLE2 is an intresting prospect but there is not that much more to be achieved in N64 emulation, It is the scene that is just a little dull - I will support it to the death and move on to the next generation of emulation but the transaction stage of limbo is hard and dull. People who have been around a while are posting less and less because there is no justification to post bar spam!!!!!

 

[UltraThing]

OK, I don't want to be taken as trashing the team, because PJ64 is clearly the best thing going and I LOVE IT. But, as far as compatibility goes, there's still plenty out there. I have approx 45 games in "storage" for being either unplayable or only marginally playable. Some may never be fully emulated, but some games like "The World is Not Enough," Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Pilotwings, Resident Evil2, Rainbow Six, Top Gear Overdrive not to mention some great japanese games like the Doraemon series and Densha de Go are all either unplayable or still too buggy to be worth playing. This is not really a big deal since as I understand it the original compatibility goals set for PJ64 when they got started have been met and surpassed. But, all I'm trying to say is that there ARE some stones still unturned. If nothing further ever got done, that's ok cuz I'm just along for the ride and couldn't code my way out of a paper bag. But I still think it's ok for me and everyone else to hope for more tweaking. Heck, they're still tweaking ZSNES on a regular basis.

 

[Reznor007]

There is still plenty left to do with N64 emulation. The main thing would be a true fully interpretive emulator. There is still lots of HLE stuff going on, which is bad. Compare N64 emulation to Playstation emulation. You can play almost any PSX game near perfect...with N64 there are lots of game specific hacks and some games require certain plugins.

Someone needs to do a new emulator that fully emulates every aspect of the N64 except the final rasterization. GPU plugins shouldn't have to code for each microcode...that should be handled by the core emulator. The RSP can change, but the RDP does not, and that is where GPU plugins should take over.

Just ask a few MAME devs what they think about current N64 emulation and what they think of PSX emulation.

 

[Azimer]

100% LLE RSP emulation will be slow as hell. That is why is hasn't been done. The RSP processor is very complex. I have seen LLE Gfx emulation in PJ64. It was VERY VERY buggy and slow.

 

[Doomulation]

I don't think we'll see LLE (full lle) anytime soon. The hle stuff is setting new goals to be compitable with games, yet fast.
That must be one of the only minor things besides full compability and lle to fix.

 

[Reznor007]

100% LLE RSP emulation will be slow as hell. That is why is hasn't been done. The RSP processor is very complex. I have seen LLE Gfx emulation in PJ64. It was VERY VERY buggy and slow.

May be slow, but is emulation more about preserving/documenting the hardware, or playing games for free?

Just look at some of the newest MAME drivers, and also some that are in the WIP page. Cruisin' USA needs about 4GHz to run. Prop Cycle needs even more. Aaron Giles was upset his Cruisn driver was faster than another devs Prop driver, so now he's going after Wayne Greztky 3d Hockey And while working on that, he whipped up drivers for both Killer Instinct games, War Gods, Offroad Challenge, CPU cores for MIPS 3/4 architectures, and ADSP2115 CPU support.

And LLE emulation doesn't necessarily have to be slow. ePSXe is completely LLE using a MAME acceptable dynrec core. A portable dynarec CPU interface is even being worked on for MAME.

 

[DuDe]

May be slow, but is emulation more about preserving/documenting the hardware, or playing games for free?

Is that a tricky question? Anyway, you won't be preserving the hardware that much by making its games run at 5 fps on a 2.5 ghz pc, and pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does documentation have to do with LLE or HLE?

Just look at some of the newest MAME drivers, and also some that are in the WIP page. Cruisin' USA needs about 4GHz to run. Prop Cycle needs even more. Aaron Giles was upset his Cruisn driver was faster than another devs Prop driver, so now he's going after Wayne Greztky 3d Hockey

Again, I fail to see why exactly is that good, but I was never too keen on the MAME Dev policies to begin with, so my observation probably doesn't worth squat.

Just ask a few MAME devs what they think about current N64 emulation and what they think of PSX emulation.

You know, the MAME Devs aren't gods. They may have their own view on emulation, and other people may have their own personal one, and none of those is more valid than the other.

 

[Azimer]

we wouldn't know half of what we knew if commercial games were running so slowly. Many bugs we find in our emulators are those which we find while playing the game. What is the point of making an emulator if you will not be able to use the result ? I would have never started if I knew I couldn't mess around with it and have a little fun. Emulation is not about preserving, documenting, or playing games for me. It's about learning the hardware. Best way to preserve or document the hardware is to buy a real Nintendo 64 license and share the information. The best way to play games is on the real system. Emulation is neither of those. Emulation has flaws.

 

[Dominator]

Add in a part of nostalgia and I fully agree with you Azi

 

[Reznor007]

Is that a tricky question? Anyway, you won't be preserving the hardware that much by making its games run at 5 fps on a 2.5 ghz pc, and pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does documentation have to do with LLE or HLE?


Again, I fail to see why exactly is that good, but I was never too keen on the MAME Dev policies to begin with, so my observation probably doesn't worth squat.


You know, the MAME Devs aren't gods. They may have their own view on emulation, and other people may have their own personal one, and none of those is more valid than the other.

Well, by accurately emulating the hardware, you can figure out how a given system worked. HLE is more about making the game work, LLE is about emulating the hardware, and having software run as a result.

Well, MAME's official policy is this "Even though MAME allows people to enjoy the long-lost arcade games and even some newer ones, the main purpose of the project is to document the hardware (and software) of the arcade games."

 

[Reznor007]

we wouldn't know half of what we knew if commercial games were running so slowly. Many bugs we find in our emulators are those which we find while playing the game. What is the point of making an emulator if you will not be able to use the result ? I would have never started if I knew I couldn't mess around with it and have a little fun. Emulation is not about preserving, documenting, or playing games for me. It's about learning the hardware. Best way to preserve or document the hardware is to buy a real Nintendo 64 license and share the information. The best way to play games is on the real system. Emulation is neither of those. Emulation has flaws.

Well, learning the hardware is on the side of documenting the hardware, and HLE goes against that. Since publicly releasing information about said console is impossible, the next best step is to do a software implementation that is as close to the hardware as possible.

Of course it has flaws, but that's why you try to make it more accurate. Find a flaw, and fix it.

And as a side note, even though CruisinUSA needs about 4GHz to run properly, I have finished races on my 1.33GHz Athlon at about 15-20FPS(with sound disabled). So even though full speed may need tons of power, you can still playtest the game. Hell, Icarus(the WIP Dreamcast emulator) is just now starting to show some 3d, and the author expects you will need 8GHz for full speed...but he's still working on it.

 

[Azimer]

1. We are not MAME.

2. Ask anyone who was serious about N64 emulation about the RSP. Most of us can give you a detailed working of the RSP (the coprocessor skipped via HLE).

3. Those bugs found are not bugs of nonunderstanding. They are caused by programmer error.

4. I just played Mario64 using PJ64 + RSP + Unreleased LLE plugin and I got 4 FPS in Mario64 because the RSP plugin by Jabo is not good enough to play RSP in its dynarec mode.

I am not going to change your mind, but LLE is a nice faucet to have in emulation, but not something to break it from a stale state.

Oh... and Icarus is using HLE afaik. I speak with Cyrus about it as often as possible. He may have changed his plans, but that is what was known last.

 

[RatTrap]

Reznor ..

you have the right to say what you want and what you think should be donne.. but remember it's what you think .. your point of view..

If i was to make let's say a GC emulator today.. i would'nt do it to please you or any guy who wanted to play the games.. i would do it to get results of the kind i am looking for.. i would probably try to get speed.. and maybe just one game working.. i asume mario sunshine would have been my main target.. i probably would'nt post about it or tell anyone but my close friends.. but that's how i am..

you might do it so that it emulates every litle chip acordingly to the real machine.. even add in the stuff you don't even need to have to the emulator.. you might start a huge open source project.. what do i know..

someone else might do it fully HLE instead (ok that's impossible).. just coz maybe they just wanted to run some games.. maybe they would run around posting about it everywhere to make themselfs famous.. it's their choise though.. you can look down on them or up.. it's up to you but does it really matter that much?.. let ppl do what they want..

eather way you see it.. ppl will do what they want to do in the end anyways.. you can't expect everyone to want the same as you.. alot of ppl that have been working with the emulation of the n64 are getting bored/tired and feel it's time for a break and or retirement.. mainly because it's been a long time comming now.. not because there's nothing more to do.. but more coz the interest might have faded.. i know some ppl will continue though.. i bet the n64 emulation scene sure would like to have more descent new authors doing sumthing.. but well.. i guess few feel motivated enugh to start a new emu..

i doubt very much that anyone ever WILL fully emulate the n64.. just as much as i doubt that the SNES will ever be 100% fully LLE'd and fully emulated.. some ppl are still trying but you know how slow those "sk3n3s" are these days..

eather way.. quoting MAMEdev here is like telling an atheist that he should believe in god.. believe me.. ppl know very well what LLE and HLE is and can be..

 

[Reznor007]

Look, I'm not trying to convince anyone about anything. Someone just asked what is the next step. The logical answer would be a complete emulation of the system. The people that are only in this for free games are probably satisfied since most popular games work ok. Now someone can thoroughly emulate the system without worrying about speed since if someone just wants to play a game, there are other options.

PS, SNES emulation is 100% LLE, even down to the point of tiny timing errors being the cause of most non-working games. PSX is also fully LLE. N64 is pretty much the only console system currently emulated that relies on HLE soley.

 

[RatTrap]

lmao.. 100% LLE?.. in your dreams ..

for an emu to be 100% LLE it would have to add the exact circuitry that the SNES had programmed in software.. everything to the last diod.. also you would need to have the same controls as you had on the SNES.. so how ever you see it.. you can never go 100% LLE.. or well.. sure you could.. but to say that's where ZSNES is today is kind of bad.. coz afaik they haven't added things like exact timing on rams.. roms.. writing to them.. reading from them.. etc.. you would have delays everywhere.. all the slowdowns.. all the bad things.. so no.. ZSNES isn't 100% LLE.. it's LLE where it needs to be and then some.. but still it has a few game specific patches ..

you could argue bout what a patch really is.. but in general terms what a patch or hack does is take over something that a part of the emulator would be doing in LLE.. so you could say it's HLE.. only it's not but you get the point..

also.. another -afaik-.. anyways.. epsxe for example has a lot of LLE sure.. but there's still a whole bunch left.. and if your using software gfx plugins you get even closer to 100% LLE.. but your still much further from 100% in psx emulation than you are in SNES emulation..

edit..

btw you gotta think bout what systems the authors making the n64 emulators have.. not many that are above the 1 Ghz proc speed.. so how much fun do you think it would be for them to run a LLE n64 emulator that gives them 1 frame per minute .. it's hard to do any real testing and to even figure out what could be wrong with something.. i remember zilmar having a 33.6 or 56k modem back when pj64 was released.. and how much fun do you think he had with a connection like that.. i think his system was also very low.. and azi worked on a really low end system for a long long time.. even though his emu was pretty much designed for 800mhz-1 Ghz minimum..

alright that you don't think that they should make them to run games.. but then they could just keep em for themselfs.. eather way.. if you can't see the results.. you soon grow tired and if not you can't even see what your doing.. it's like walking in the dark ..

 

[killthegene]

And yet, the emulation scene is at a state of which it's almost complete. Compability has an incredibly high rate. What more could you ask for?

i beg to differ:

both linux and mac n64 emulation is lagging behind that of windows. this seems odd as most other consoles are emulated equally as well over many diffrent platforms.

 

[Reznor007]

lmao.. 100% LLE?.. in your dreams ..

for an emu to be 100% LLE it would have to add the exact circuitry that the SNES had programmed in software.. everything to the last diod.. also you would need to have the same controls as you had on the SNES.. so how ever you see it.. you can never go 100% LLE.. or well.. sure you could.. but to say that's where ZSNES is today is kind of bad.. coz afaik they haven't added things like exact timing on rams.. roms.. writing to them.. reading from them.. etc.. you would have delays everywhere.. all the slowdowns.. all the bad things.. so no.. ZSNES isn't 100% LLE.. it's LLE where it needs to be and then some.. but still it has a few game specific patches ..

you could argue bout what a patch really is.. but in general terms what a patch or hack does is take over something that a part of the emulator would be doing in LLE.. so you could say it's HLE.. only it's not but you get the point..

also.. another -afaik-.. anyways.. epsxe for example has a lot of LLE sure.. but there's still a whole bunch left.. and if your using software gfx plugins you get even closer to 100% LLE.. but your still much further from 100% in psx emulation than you are in SNES emulation..

edit..

btw you gotta think bout what systems the authors making the n64 emulators have.. not many that are above the 1 Ghz proc speed.. so how much fun do you think it would be for them to run a LLE n64 emulator that gives them 1 frame per minute .. it's hard to do any real testing and to even figure out what could be wrong with something.. i remember zilmar having a 33.6 or 56k modem back when pj64 was released.. and how much fun do you think he had with a connection like that.. i think his system was also very low.. and azi worked on a really low end system for a long long time.. even though his emu was pretty much designed for 800mhz-1 Ghz minimum..

alright that you don't think that they should make them to run games.. but then they could just keep em for themselfs.. eather way.. if you can't see the results.. you soon grow tired and if not you can't even see what your doing.. it's like walking in the dark ..

I'm not talking about circuit level emulation, just register level. Emulating pure voltages going through circuits is entirely possible(and there is software to do this), but is incredibly complicated. However, MAME is doing this for some things, such as sound in Asteroids and other discrete sound games that don't use CPU's for sound generation.

LLE is not a reproduction, but is emulation. For example, you don't need a real SNES controller, because it's not emulation, it's the real thing And since the SNES controller is just 12 on/off switches connected to an IC that converts it into serial data for the system, ANY device with the right amount of buttons is essentially the same thing.

A game specific hack is just a coverup for a small bug. In a way in can be considered HLE, but since it is acknoowledged as a bug, there is work being done to fix it properly.

What in ePSXe is HLE'd then? The CPU is LLE, sound and graphics are too. Even the 3d accelerated plugins are LLE. They process everything just like the real GPU does(setup/transformations), and then substitutes it's final raster process for one done in hardware. The arcade emulator Zinc is the same way.