Rice's Plugin Source <discussion>
- Thread starter Enzo Dragon
- Start date
A few things 
Ok I will try the new source tree and see what I need to install to get it to compile (getting the SDK's to install under win2K is possible MS is really being silly these days but what else is new with them? See Vista see OSX copy DOH).
Anyhow OpenGL 3.0 spec is soon to be released it is is not a MAJOR change to the Spec just some pruning of no longer used features etc. Although I am a little leery of removing the OpenGL 'begin' and 'end' bits. I'm not exactly sure what this will acomplish however I suspect that they assume that everything is running on a machine so damned fast that the dynamic recompiler of the intermediate code sent to the GPU will make up for this?
On lower end machines IE emeded systems this is a completely different matter. EGL 2.0 spec is out too. Oh well things go weird often with standards. I still have yet to get my OGL code functioning with BCB myself. At least I don't need that for work!
Cyb
Ok I will try the new source tree and see what I need to install to get it to compile (getting the SDK's to install under win2K is possible MS is really being silly these days but what else is new with them? See Vista see OSX copy DOH).
Anyhow OpenGL 3.0 spec is soon to be released it is is not a MAJOR change to the Spec just some pruning of no longer used features etc. Although I am a little leery of removing the OpenGL 'begin' and 'end' bits. I'm not exactly sure what this will acomplish however I suspect that they assume that everything is running on a machine so damned fast that the dynamic recompiler of the intermediate code sent to the GPU will make up for this?
On lower end machines IE emeded systems this is a completely different matter. EGL 2.0 spec is out too. Oh well things go weird often with standards. I still have yet to get my OGL code functioning with BCB myself. At least I don't need that for work!
Cyb
mudlord
Banned
Hehe, okay. All you should need is the headers and libs from the DX8.1 SDK if you want to compile the stable version. Development one needs the DX9 one.
I havent read up on the new OGL developments to be honest, so OGL 3.0 is quite new to me. I would imagine they'll still keep compatibility, hopefully, with older OGL versions, instead of taking the DX10 route of completely breaking backwards compatibility for the sake of extra things....
I heard that the PS3 uses OGL ES for graphics. Still, im not too familiar with ES.
Doh.. I can use an older version then. I feel silly. It's better for me to beat on the stable version and then reintegration can be handled later. I'll do some adjustments and see what I can get going on my system (as slow as it is).mudlord said:
I hope not as well. DX breaking is primarily a comercial reason. MS does not want to leave control of all that to other people so that is the route they've taken. It's quite the political move.mudlord said:
OGL ES is a much more simplified standard. IE it moves to a more straight foward path for handling things instead of the 'it depends on the OS' method for normal OGL. In simple terms it doesn't have as many complicated mechanisms for determining features (IE all the wonder extension probing) that MIGHT be implemented.
"Royalty free 2D/3D API consisting of well-defined subset profiles of desktop OpenGL" is the best description I've found. In summary it has well defined functionality which is what is needed in embeded apps (IE no surprises).
As for wither the PS3 supports it or not, well I don't know to be honest.
Cyb
mudlord
Banned
Alright, sounds cool.
Yeah, and also it helps force adoption of Vista. I intend to steer clear of it as much as possible tho for gaming, since DX9 for me is more than enough graphics-wise, and I don't need to blow money and time on DX10, when a lot of the techniques it uses, like procedural content generation, can be done already..
From my research, PSGL is the API it uses. A subset of that is indeed OpenGL ES.
In other news, I am acquiring Visual Studio .NET 2003 Professional. I intend to try out some things with it, as it is the original compiler Rice used when he was coding.
I hope so (LOL). Knowing my good fortune thus far I'll have to spend half a day getting the thing to compile the base code. (sigh)
Welcome to Steve Balmar, the man who killed Silicon Graphics in 2 years. I'm not sure Vista will be adopted wholesale, things are definately not looking up as much as MS wanted. As for procedural content generation, that sounds VAGUELY like OpenGL version 1.0 (sorry couldn't help but snicker how MS 'adopted' the features of OGL into DX over time). I think MS still has a seat on the OpenGL board oddly.
They made there own variant? (How very Sonyesq) Just like they adopted Linux but the variant available for the PS2 was too crippled to do real developement on (IE you couldn't do squat toward game developement with it other than for someone who had Sony Linux for the PS2).
I'm wondering if it will have the same broken things as VS2005? (sorry I'm pessimistic today). Are you going to port your latest code branch to using that environment or start with a 'known' set of code that compiles under it?
Erstwhile time to fire up SVN and get the stable code branch.
Cyb
mudlord
Banned
That sucks
. I remember having the same issues when first starting work on this.True, I know one thing, I wont be touching Vista for a very long time....Mainly I would need a whole new PC to do some decent dev work with it at a zippy pace. Plus, I don't like the whole driver fiasco atm, especially with OGL performance. Procedural content generation has been around ever since the demoscene started. Its funny how MS only started to really pick up on it in DX10 and thier geometry shaders, when demoscene stuff use OGL, software rasterisation (case in point: "Heaven Se7en") or DX9 to do the same thing.
Yep, they use a graphics API with a subset which is based on OGL ES.
I'm wondering if it will have the same broken things as VS2005? (sorry I'm pessimistic today). Are you going to port your latest code branch to using that environment or start with a 'known' set of code that compiles under it?
Erstwhile time to fire up SVN and get the stable code branch.
Cyb
a) Nope, it seems with the compiler switch, everything behaves like it should, just like the last official beta. All z problems that were caused by compiler usage have been fixed, and now finally, emulation quality is exactly the same as Rice's last plugin. So, my builds now have improved on it, with the built-in BMGLib etc...See the attached build as proof :bouncy:
b) There was already project files left over by Rice, so it was a matter of simply fixing the preprocessor commands to use DX8 in the MSVC 7.1 project files, and viola...
C) Just a note, I cleaned up the SVN tree a bit, it should make things a lot clearer to do.
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squall_leonhart
The Great Gunblade Wielder
i was chatting to Mudlord today,.. and we found that RiceVideo is compatible with PJ64 1.7,.. only when using the Opengl output..... it seems it only hardlocks the screen when using Direct3D.... now if only the framebuffer effects worked in OGL....
also, is there a reason why Rice Video renders so wierd?.. take a look at the mirror shield in OoT and you'll see what i mean... take a look at the one in MM as well coz im sure it has some iregularities as well :\
Majora's mask is missing the blur effect used when your on the moon, and the distance cut off seems to low.... the kids running around the tree appear further way on Jabo's plugin then on Rice Video
also, is there a reason why Rice Video renders so wierd?.. take a look at the mirror shield in OoT and you'll see what i mean... take a look at the one in MM as well coz im sure it has some iregularities as well :\
Majora's mask is missing the blur effect used when your on the moon, and the distance cut off seems to low.... the kids running around the tree appear further way on Jabo's plugin then on Rice Video
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The Siskoo
Member
GT 64 Championship Edition (E) and (U) [!] --> check Increase TextRect Edge
mudlord
Banned
Thanks
Mmmhm, and if I can get them to work at a decent speed...and rewrite it...
lain:Hmm, and I read your logs on the PJ64 beta forum. Suffice to say, its really strange. =]
I know Jabo did quite a bit of work recently with texture LOD in Zelda and the Rare Ltd written games, not sure if the mirror shield is a use of it.
Hmm, well of course the blur is missing.So your saying theres a issue with drawing distance?
Note on apparent distance etc. Do not use Jabo's as the 'most' acurate or another. The real comparison is how it is on the real N64. If you have the game and the console take the time to look at the specific point of the game you are wondering about if you can before saying relativistic things such as "it looks too far away" or "it looks too close". It may have been like that in the original game, if so tweaking ones plugin for subjective things is like comparing ones measurements in feet with those in meters DIRECTLY (IE no conversion) it will definately distort things way out of proportion.
Cyb
Cyb
squall_leonhart
The Great Gunblade Wielder
i use Jabo's as the basis as it is the closest to actual N64 rendering in regards to Majora's Mask, on both the N64 and Jabo's the Children become visible from further away then on RV.
All right let me put it a different way. Do you know what the scene is supposed to look like? IE not in Jabo's plugin but in the original game. If not.. you are making a flawed comparison, it's the same as saying a yard is a meter or visa versa. You have to have a standard by which you measure things, and in this case it's the N64 system. Jabo's plugin is emulating the N64 hardware, however it is not the N64 hardware. All graphic plugin's have to compare with the visual output of the N64 system in the end, because that is the standard. Therefore compare it with images from the N64 not Jabo's plugin, then you will not be making a subjective comparison. In the current state, no one knows weather what you are talking about is a bug in the version of Jabo's plugin you have or in the version of mudlord's plugin you have.
Be sure to match the scenes correctly also, just a bit of skew can make things look odd easily (perspective distortion etc.)
The main thing to keep in mind is that mudlord could take days or weeks to try and figure out what might be the problem, when it might not be a problem to begin with. This is why you make realistic and acurate comparisons and not subjective ones. (Testing software is an art form in itself and if you think about it that is what is going on here.)
Cyberman
Be sure to match the scenes correctly also, just a bit of skew can make things look odd easily (perspective distortion etc.)
The main thing to keep in mind is that mudlord could take days or weeks to try and figure out what might be the problem, when it might not be a problem to begin with. This is why you make realistic and acurate comparisons and not subjective ones. (Testing software is an art form in itself and if you think about it that is what is going on here.)
Cyberman
squall_leonhart
The Great Gunblade Wielder
what part of
did you miss?
lol, i know what it looks like on the N64, and the children appear in the distance from further away on the N64 then on rice videos... theres also the funky blur effect and crazy drug induced psychosis thing going on there....
did you miss?
lol, i know what it looks like on the N64, and the children appear in the distance from further away on the N64 then on rice videos... theres also the funky blur effect and crazy drug induced psychosis thing going on there....
I guess I did miss LOL sorry about that. Screen shots to compare (IE N64 scene and RV scene) would be more helpful than anything. That is what I was really getting at. It could be that the applied affect has something to do with the visually percieved fade in distance.
Cyb
Cyb
squall_leonhart
The Great Gunblade Wielder
hey, sorry if i seemed like i was being rude then, i didn't mean it like that.
Suggestion
Because of numerous systems and configurations and people speaking of problems about the plugin and the possibility of obfsucation of what the real issue.
How about a little button the plugin adds in the configuration menu that dumps:
All Rice Related Video settings (in a neat well defined manner)
All System Related Settings that might affect the plugin (GFX card version of D3D OS information etc.)
All Emulator Related Settings (anything that is possible to get at least) that might affect it as well.
to the clip board then they can paste it into a message so that people can dicipher what the problem.
Cyb
Because of numerous systems and configurations and people speaking of problems about the plugin and the possibility of obfsucation of what the real issue.
How about a little button the plugin adds in the configuration menu that dumps:
All Rice Related Video settings (in a neat well defined manner
)All System Related Settings that might affect the plugin (GFX card version of D3D OS information etc.)
All Emulator Related Settings (anything that is possible to get at least) that might affect it as well.
to the clip board then they can paste it into a message so that people can dicipher what the problem.
Cyb