Question about SNES emus

[Clements]

Ya, normally any Pentium M, Core Duo, Core 2 Duo, Athlon64 or Athlon64 X2 should run bsnes fullspeed.

I disagree that accuracy is ALWAYS the highest priority.

For any developed emulator like ZSNES, accuracy becomes the #1 priority. Every game (at least the non-special chip variety) gets in-game already - its just that some have some emulation bugs. Bug fixing is literally all pagefault does at the moment.

You are right if you mean that accuracy was not the original primary objective (and compatibility was), but priorities often change as development progresses. If adequate compatibility and accuracy is achieved, then speed may become priority #1.

With some emulators you can run almost all games to a degree that appears perfect without achieving very high accuracy (and achieving very high speed). Dynamic recompilers are never completely cycle accurate, but they usually get the job done.

For SNES, ZSNES and Snes9x already took similar approaches and got pretty far with it. However about 50 or more games still have bugs. It was time for byuu to step in and tried a totally new approach (true cycle accuracy) to get all those problematic games finally working correctly. Nestopia did the same thing (focus on accuracy) and now is my primary NES emulator.

You've mentioned Chrono Trigger failing in ZSNES, but I've played it (years ago), and I did find it sufficiently close to the original. If there were slight defects they were so minor that they really didn't bother me, and yes, I played the game to completion on a real SNES (a few times).

ZSNES used hacks to get the sound right in Chrono Trigger in previous versions, which have been removed. The game has a cult fan base as you know, and constantly report bugs in this game with ZSNES.

I am also one of those users who get annoyed by tiny bugs in games I played on the real thing. I reported that an earlier version of ZSNES had half of the letter 'B' missing in 'Battle Mode' on the Title screen of Super Bomberman. Doesn't affect gameplay at all, but it is a definite bug in the emulation and it mattered to me being a fan of the game. Could have even affected other games perhaps. The bug was later fixed and the game now runs flawless. To me, that is the spirit of emulation.

The user, even "serious user", is NOT going to care about special game hacks being employed if the game works. As an emu programmer I know exactly how you feel about them and I personally all but refuse to use them unless I've identified an issue that's simply unresolveable without taking too much of a performance hit (right now I think I've skirted these, fortunately). But to the user it's not noticeable, so long as the ROM is identified correctly.

I guess I am an ultra-serious user then. I follow the development of all the emulators I use very closely.

Recently, Nach discovered that an emulator called uosnes had a hack file that hacked over 100 games to work. Even to the extent of replacing game code! Personally, I wouldn't use an emulator that needed to use extensive hacks to get games working when better alternatives are out there that can do without them. Who knows how well the core will hold up in other games. ZSNES also uses hacks, but they can be disabled, and are being removed as emulation accuracy increases. byuu just didn't add any to start with - if a game didn't work, it doesn't work. Adding a hack would be against the principle of his emulator.

But to the user it's not noticeable, so long as the ROM is identified correctly.

Specific Hacks are not the best way to solve emulation problems as you have said from your experience. For instance, a translation group reported that FFVI's overworld was glitched in ZSNES with their patch. That was because ZSNES used a game hack that recognised an internal name of the rom, and when the group changed the internal name, the game no longer worked properly since the hack did recognise the altered internal name. This renders the patch unplayable in ZSNES.

Of course, I respect bsnes's goals and purposes - for one thing, it's much more useful for people developing software that they intend to run on a real SNES (also translation patches and other modifications). This way they have a much better idea of if their code performs well enough and they're less likely to get divergent behavior when they do something bad (less cases of "the emulator lets me do it"). It's also a better emulator for longterm preservation/archival purposes, which is important.

I totally agree. The goal of bsnes is very much like MAME/MESS. Imagine how useful a perfect emulator would be to a rom translation/hack making group. Many people still have SNES copiers which they run these translations on the real thing. Many instances of patches working on ZSNES but not on copiers. If bsnes could be made accurate enough, it would make an excellent testing platform. It's ultimately good for normal users too.

And while going to the first level might seem sufficient I can tell you from experience that many games can be perfect for a long time then go awry well into them. Maybe less so for this emulator.

True, but there is plenty of time for bug hunting later. byuu has emulated much of the system perfect enough, but several games have bugs due to an identical problem. Not always easy to find these.

 

[Miretank]

Hah, didn't know that snes9c version for windows. Thanks Agozer.

I guess I am an ultra-serious user then.

You're always serious. It's the third time I've ever seen a smiley in a post of yours.

 

[ScottJC]

Mind you, now that I think about it, Clements has a point about accuaracy.

I was using Gens for years when Kega Fusion series of emus came out, I've never looked back, If Accurate is done well enough people will care then I guess. But I think Gens may still be on top, dunno but that don't matter.

Wish I could get rid of bsnes's static, read on Zsnes forum others were gettin it. Some of the developers words are a bit disillusioning, especially the ones of yesterday, seems to me he is losing interest in the whole thing... I think for such a newcomer in snes emu terms it is new, 2004-now. He's done a great job.