Mario 64 save help!

[Agozer]

It's not really the same thing, is it?

ROMs are commercial copyrighted works and distributing them, let alone openly telling where one can download illegally download them can get us in legal trouble. A lot of legal trouble, seeing how Nintendo is one of those companies who goes to great lengths to protect their copyright, and has had an active role is shutting down many romsites in the past. It's hardly a dumbass rule if the future of this site and our necks are on the line. The only exception to this are public domain ROMs, which, like the name implies, are public and freely distributable by anyone.

Furthermore, this is the Internet. You can find what you are looking for with very little effort. If you can't manage that, you fail both at the Internet and Google. At the same time.

 

[MetaGunner]

There's a problem with what you're saying. One that sticks out a mile when you stop and think about it;

There are about 50 easy-to find places where you can download these copyrighted Roms that nintendo care so much about; However, they apperently moniter this forum and strike with legal action should one of these free, unblocked, unremoved sites be mentioned?

There's covering your asses, and there's paranoia ^^

 

[Agozer]

I didn't say they actively monitor sites, but they do eventually get the info one way or another, and in many cases it's not directly Nintendo that's doing it, but BSA, among few others. It isn't the first time websites that either host or link to ROMs or other copyrighted works have been threatened with legal action directly or indirectly.

It's better to be a little paranoid, and cover one's ass at the same time, considering the resources and the ammunition the "opposition" has. ROMs fall under the same category as movies and warez. If Nintendo had their way completely, they'd outlaw emulators without a moments notice; commercial or otherwise.

 

[Allnatural]

It's better to be a little paranoid, and cover one's ass at the same time...

Yup. It wasn't that long ago that Martin had his PayPal account suspended because they thought he *might* be engaging in illegal activities.

http://www.emutalk.net/showthread.php?t=37898

There are about 50 easy-to find places where you can download these copyrighted Roms

Right, so you don't need our help.

Besides, we see enough inept questions here, most of which could be answered if the user would RTFM. The last thing I want to see is "where can I download Zelda?" over and over and over and over...

 

[MetaGunner]

No, I didn't need your help from the beginning, but questions lead to more questions..I'm just trying to immerse myself in the mystery and atmosphere of Emubusiness x)

So, why aren't emulators considered completely illegal? I mean, in essence, they are. At the same time, why would the companies care about the copyright on a product that they have long since stopped producing and selling themselves?

And why don't these crafty copyright agents with their spy network across the internet take down the websites that are providing the roms. Why persecute people that are using an illegal service, when the service itself is there for everyone to see?

 

[Agozer]

The point people codes emulators is not to enable people to play games they don't own, but re-create machines and devices in software for documentation and in as sense, preservation - CPUs, sound, graphics and other highly specialized chips that are usnique in their design and function. This is in no way illegal. The ability to play games is a side-effect, and not the goal of accurate (or at least some degree of accurate) emulation, because the original machine was created for that purpose.

Yes, most people use emulators to play games they don't own. Everybody knows this, but emulator authors aren't the one's responsible. The only way for it to be legal is for you to own the actual console and the game, dump the game contents to a file and play that on the emulator.

Companies own the copyright for not just the games, but for the characters, music and entire worlds as well, only to name a few (which can be used to create other derivative works even decades after the game was published) - it doesn't matter to companies if they've stopped producing and selling the actual games. That's not the point of copyright anyway.

 

[Allnatural]

So, why aren't emulators considered completely illegal? I mean, in essence, they are.

Nintendo would like them declared as such...

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp

So far as I understand, the courts have said that writing an emulator is legal so long information used to create it was not illegally obtained (ie. it must be fully reverse-engineered).

And why don't these crafty copyright agents with their spy network across the internet take down the websites that are providing the roms. Why persecute people that are using an illegal service, when the service itself is there for everyone to see?

The internet is a big place; it's hard to get them all shut down. As for the more visible sites, I imagine their servers are located in countries where the law is applied very loosely, if at all (I'm thinking China and Russia).

 

[MetaGunner]

Companies own the copyright for not just the games, but for the characters, music and entire worlds as well, only to name a few (which can be used to create other derivative works even decades after the game was published) - it doesn't matter to companies if they've stopped producing and selling the actual games. That's not the point of copyright anyway.

That's hardly relevant, people making their own works using elements of other games is an entirely different issue. It's not like by owning an illegal rom of a game you assume possesion of all the trademark things in that game. Unless you're trying to make some other point? I can't detect a hint of a connection to the question I asked in there.

Nintendo's answer to my question seems to be utter malarchy as far as I can see;

People Making Nintendo Emulators and Nintendo ROMs are Helping Publishers by Making Old Games Available that are No Longer Being Sold by the Copyright Owner. This Does Not Hurt Anyone and Allows Gamers to Play Old Favorites. What's the Problem?

The problem is that it's illegal. Copyrights and trademarks of games are corporate assets. If these vintage titles are available far and wide, it undermines the value of this intellectual property and adversely affects the right owner. In addition, the assumption that the games involved are vintage or nostalgia games is incorrect. Nintendo is famous for bringing back to life its popular characters for its newer systems, for example, Mario and Donkey Kong have enjoyed their adventures on all Nintendo platforms, going from coin-op machines to our latest hardware platforms. As a copyright owner, and creator of such famous characters, only Nintendo has the right to benefit from such valuable assets.

"If these vintage titles are available far and wide, it undermines the value of this intellectual property and adversely affects the right owner." How?

"Nintendo is famous for bringing back to life its popular characters for its newer systems, for example, Mario and Donkey Kong have enjoyed their adventures on all Nintendo platforms, going from coin-op machines to our latest hardware platforms." Therefore.....What?

"As a copyright owner, and creator of such famous characters, only Nintendo has the right to benefit from such valuable assets." The only way this makes any sense is if Benefit = Profit; Nintendo surely can't mean that no one but them can enjoy the games they have made in the past. Since emulators and roms are free, it doesn't apply to this question anyway.

Is there some hidden meaning I'm missing? Or are Nintendo just ridiculously selfish?

 

[Agozer]

Is there some hidden meaning I'm missing? Or are Nintendo just ridiculously selfish?

I'd put my money on that and being overly protective, not to mention archaic in their way of looking at things.

As a copyright owner, and creator of such famous characters, only Nintendo has the right to benefit from such valuable assets.

The point I was trying to make with my previous answer basically mirrors this Nintendo quote to a degree. you asked before: "why would the companies care about the copyright on a product that they have long since stopped producing and selling themselves". I agree, that I went on a tangent because we were talking strictly about the use of emulators and ROMs - but personally, I just don't feel like you can talk about these things without looking at what makes e.g. Nintendo so aggressively pursue the [mis]use of their assets, regardless whether or not we're strictly talking about games not in production anymore. Hence why I tackled the derivative works side of things.

So let's try again, from the original angle.

By owning an illegal ROM, in Nintendo's view, you are in possession of an copy of a game you haven't paid for, and are playing the game on a piece of hardware not made by Nintendo, and thus you infringe their copyright. A ROM image is a data dump from a cart, so once this data gets a form that can be read by your garden variety PC, Nintendo's copyright has been breached. Also, the the cart data has been dumped to a file that can be read by a PC, it can also be modified anyway you want (provided that you have the knowhow), so the derivative works issue kicks in, and Nintendo doesn't take kindly to that either. It doesn't matter if the production of said game(s) have long since stopped; you are still infringing their copyright, and they are mad about it. Yes, Nintendo is an archaic giant, hopelessly in the sticks when it comes to the whole copyright debate, mirrored in that copyright rant.


Note: I'm not the best person in the world when it comes to wording my posts, much less actual coherence (that comes way later), so apologies if I makes this even more convoluted.

 

[MetaGunner]

Infringing on copyright is not automatically a terrible thing to happen. In this case, It has zero effect on how much money nintendo makes from these games. If they cared about people owning illegal copies as righteously as they make out, they would put their most popular vintage games + N64 consoles back into production and sell them online at a reasonable price. The derivative works angle makes sense, but I would put serious amounts of money on a bet that no has ever, or will ever, release their own games using Mario or Donkey Kong as the protagonist. Nevermind the legal reprocussions of such a work; the reason I say that is purely because to make a game to the same standard as the actual games in which the Nintendo cast of characters reside would take huge effort on the part of a talented person/people. No one would put in that kind of effort to rip off Nintendo when they could produce an original game of their own to that standard.

Emulators spread vintage Nintendo goodness around without any cost to anyone - the old games and characters grow in reputation. People are surely more likely to buy the latest pathetic thing Nintendo have released on Wii if they've played a classic N64 game with the same characters, back from when Nintendo were awesome. With this in mind, The only real reason that nintendo are so pissy about emulator use and CR infringment is that they can't profit from people's enjoyment, yet they aren't even willing to actually sell it to anyone. They need a kick in the balls, badly, if you ask me.

 

[Allnatural]

Infringing on copyright is not automatically a terrible thing to happen. In this case, It has zero effect on how much money nintendo makes from these games.

True, sort of. I don't lose much sleep when I think of all the roms I've downloaded. Doesn't change the fact that it's illegal though.

If they cared about people owning illegal copies as righteously as they make out, they would put their most popular vintage games + N64 consoles back into production and sell them online at a reasonable price.

They are, sort of. According to Wikipedia there have been 319 releases on the virtual console to date. Not all of those are Nintendo IPs of course, but you get my point.

 

[Agozer]

The only real reason that nintendo are so pissy about emulator use and CR infringment is that they can't profit from people's enjoyment, yet they aren't even willing to actually sell it to anyone. They need a kick in the balls, badly, if you ask me.

They are a business after all; it's all about profit in the end, no matter what kind of window dressing Nintendo likes to use.

Yeah, like many other companies, they need a kick in the balls. Preferably several.

 

[MetaGunner]

True, sort of. I don't lose much sleep when I think of all the roms I've downloaded. Doesn't change the fact that it's illegal though.

Laws should ALWAYS be at the discretion of the parties involved, and reasonable debate (Such as this one ^^). When people follow their books and orders blindly, without stopping to consider what's actually happening, villages get massacred, thieves who hurt themselves while robbing people's houses sue the people for damages and get away with it, and generally the wrong sort of loopholes (Or lack of them) lead to people abusing what was put there to stop dreadful things happening in the first place. Rage. What better time than Now? :batman:

According to Wikipedia...

-Cough- :yucky:

...on the virtual console to date.

Virtual console you say? (Uh oh, my Noob is showing...Oh well)

What might you mean by that sir? x)

They are a business after all; it's all about profit in the end, no matter what kind of window dressing Nintendo likes to use.

Yeah, like many other companies, they need a kick in the balls. Preferably several.

Let's just cross our fingers, and hope that Nintendo somehow infringe on Sony's copyright in the smallest of ways, and get a legal boot the size of Bowser to the cheery red dungaree-crotch. x)

 

[Agozer]

Virtual console you say? (Uh oh, my Noob is showing...Oh well)

What might you mean by that sir? x)

The Wii's Virtual Console. Check Wikipedia if you want to know more.

Wikipedia isn't a bad source for small tidbits of info, like the amount of games on the VC currently.

 

[Toasty]

Laws should ALWAYS be at the discretion of the parties involved, and reasonable debate (Such as this one ^^). When people follow their books and orders blindly, without stopping to consider what's actually happening, villages get massacred, thieves who hurt themselves while robbing people's houses sue the people for damages and get away with it, and generally the wrong sort of loopholes (Or lack of them) lead to people abusing what was put there to stop dreadful things happening in the first place

Now you see why I always refer to it as a legal system and not a justice system.

Let's just cross our fingers, and hope that Nintendo somehow infringe on Sony's copyright in the smallest of ways, and get a legal boot the size of Bowser to the cheery red dungaree-crotch.

Compared to Sony, Nintendo loves copyright infringement.

 

[X-Fi6]

I *really* hope that was some attempt at a joke.

 

[Toasty]

How so? Look at Sony as a whole. (I'm not just talking about their video game segment.) They've done way more to prosecute/persecute infringers than Nintendo ever has. Not to mention some of the lengths they've gone to in order to prevent even legitimate copying.

 

[MetaGunner]

Now you see why I always refer to it as a legal system and not a justice system.

Indeed.

Liar, Lawyer, Mirror, for you, What's the difference...?

Compared to Sony, Nintendo loves copyright infringement.

Why do you think I choose Sony as the hypothetical company that Nintendo would infringe upon? :cat:

The Wii's Virtual Console.

Oooh I see...Well I wouldn't count that as facilitating my desire to play retro classic Nintendo games, because I would have to buy their current horrible gimic in order to buy said classics... Like buying an expensive mountain of manure in order to buy some prize stallions afterwards.

 

[Toasty]

Why do you think I choose Sony as the hypothetical company that Nintendo would infringe upon? :cat:

Gotcha.

 

[MetaGunner]

Whoo, I made the hottest non-sticky thread in here with my inept questions! x)