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Is it possible to increase FPS without increasing game speed?

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nick_danger

2 Fast, not that Furious
This question could be directed at any emulator, but I'm curious as to why when I uncheck "limit fps" that a 150fps rate must equal 3X the game speed unlike PC games. I understand that PC games are different than N64 ROMs, but when using PC rendering methods, wouldn't the "PC rules" apply? Thanks.
 

jollyrancher

New member
I sorta know what you're saying and I think the answer is that console games only need to generate 60 (50, PAL) frames per second because that's all a standard TV can display. PC's have much higher refresh rates so games are programmed to be capable of generating more FPS and being able to skip those frames on slower systems.
 
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nick_danger

nick_danger

2 Fast, not that Furious
Well kinda... For example, I can play Unreal Tournament (a PC game) at about 90 frames per second, but whether I play at 50, 90, or 150 frames per second, it still takes me 10 seconds to run from point A to point B. The actual game speed does not increase, just the redering of each visual, get what I'm saying? The more frames per second you have (to an extent), the smoother the game appears. So what I'm asking is if it's possible to play a ROM at the maximum framerate my computer can render while still retaining the movement speed, shooting speed, etc.
 

jollyrancher

New member
No, it's not possible because the console games only generate 60 frames per second (there only are 60 frames that can be produced by the code) so anything over that will just speed it up. A PC game's code might be able to generate 300 FPS and then will skip frames to play at the same speed on systems that can't generate all 300 frames.

edit: someone should move this to the other emulation forum.
 
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Villela

New member
The emulator will read the opcodes from the game, at some part he receives an opcode to update the screen from the rom, there is no way to do this adjusting the speed, btw maybe with a hard(really really hard) work is possible to create an simulation of a intermediate frame and double the frames per update, but probably is imposible to make it works correctly
 
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schibo

Emulator Developer
The answer to the original question in the thread topic is YES for some games. If you switch to CF=1, you can get a higher FPS. Read my section on Counter Factor in the help manual.
 

jollyrancher

New member
Yeah, but you still can't run an N64 game at 150 fps with the same visual speed like you can Halflife because the code wasn't created like that. Anything over 60 fps will begin to wreck the audio and timing and speed the game up. An emulator like Raine overclocks the core to prevent slowdown that occurred in the actual arcade games, but it can't double the fps and keep the game running at the same visual speed. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a counter factor that will give you over 60 VI/sec with normal sound and the same visual speed (minus choppiness).
 

Tagrineth

Dragony thingy
OK. What happens is, generally on PC games, physics (and thus game speed, timing, etc.) are run on a different timer than frames.

Thus, your physics/game engine can be locked at a stable rate, say 60Hz, which all configurations will strive to maintain... while the more fickle frame rate, which can vary very wildly based on hardware configuration, won't affect your game.

On consoles, a simple shortcut is used where, because older consoles automatically locked the video frame rate onto the TV's refresh rate. Since you have a specific target architecture, which will NEVER vary, you KNOW what your frame rate will be at any given time, and can usually lock your performance to a certain 'average' frame rate.

The games then would very often simply use the reliable frame timer to take physics/engine samples. This can easily be seen in some games, for example in Mario Kart 64, in Battle mode, on the Rooftop, the game very noticeably speeds up tremendously at times... easy way to see it: Have one character with triple shells out, and have EVERYONE go to teh very edge of the stage. The shells should spin VERY QUICKLY. =)

Basically it's just to keep your performance better in a console environment... but that's why the games can't go past 60fps easily - the games' physics engines are looking at your frame counter for update cues.
 
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nick_danger

nick_danger

2 Fast, not that Furious
schibo said:
The answer to the original question in the thread topic is YES for some games. If you switch to CF=1, you can get a higher FPS. Read my section on Counter Factor in the help manual.

OK, I'll try that. Thanks to everybody for responding. If I get any results, I'll let y'all know.
 

Remote

Active member
Moderator
Didn't read all of but I'm pretty sure the eye can't detect changes over 75 fps per second.. Could be wrong though but it's somewhere in that range so more fps isn't needed really..
 

jollyrancher

New member
Yeah, anything over 85hz on my monitor makes no difference... what annoys me is games that run at their full speed (60 fps) and are still choppy like Street Fighter 2. It would be great if an emulator could throw in more frames to make it as smooth as SF3: 3rd Strike, but I still don't think it's possible to create additional frames with most 2D systems just because those frames were never drawn in the first place so they can't be animated. Anyway, it's getting late and I'm probably not making any sense, but I'd think it might be possible to create "extra" frames in some 3D consoles, but not anything beyond 60 VI/sec while keeping the sound/speed normal.
 

Clements

Active member
Moderator
ZSNES had kitchensync and could run Snes games @ 120 fps (NTSC) and @ 100 fps (PAL).

Don't know how it was done, and it only worked with some monitors.
 

Lillymon

Ninja Princess
It was actually running at 120Hz (NTSC) and 100Hz (PAL). The games remained at 60FPS (NTSC) and 50FPS (PAL) but the refresh rate was doubled. The most likely reason is that more sensitive eyes can see flicker at low refresh rates.
 

ZDragon

New member
Lillymon said:
It was actually running at 120Hz (NTSC) and 100Hz (PAL). The games remained at 60FPS (NTSC) and 50FPS (PAL) but the refresh rate was doubled. The most likely reason is that more sensitive eyes can see flicker at low refresh rates.

I think THAT has to do with your monitor refresh rate. I also notice if it's below 100 Hz by the way... 60 Hz even makes my cry when I stare at it (for real!) :p

You can't really see flicker with 60 FPS if your monitor refresh rate is high enough. E.g. 120 Hz @ 60 FPS: your monitor will refresh 120 times a second, and show every frame twice because there is no new input from the game. Nothing has changed during that (monitor) frame. Our eyes can't really detect small motions with more than 20-25 FPS anyway, more just makes it run a *little* smoother. However if your monitor flickers, it is somewhat a big difference than before - as one part of your screen is completely dark for a short time.

Even if you have sensitive eyes, you won't see flicker with 60 FPS - not with over 100 Hz, at least.
 

vleespet

The decent one
Well, that won't make the game run smoother. To get the optimal smoothness:

- Use 1964 with Counter Factor 1 (as Schibo stated).
- Enable the VSync in the plugin (if you can't, enable it in your videocard settings).
 
I think were forgetting something here.
The N64 (NTSC) runs at about 60Hz (59.94Hz) interlaced and therefore only rendering about 30 (29.97) solid frames per second.

AFAIK, N64 video plugin's handel the video as non-interlaced video and render only about 30FPS (29.97FPS).
 

schibo

Emulator Developer
URAMetroid said:
I think were forgetting something here.
The N64 (NTSC) runs at about 60Hz (59.94Hz) interlaced and therefore only rendering about 30 (29.97) solid frames per second.

AFAIK, N64 video plugin's handel the video as non-interlaced video and render only about 30FPS (29.97FPS).

The issue is a bit different and more simple here :). Change the timing of the game, (as with CF) and threads will run differently.
 

Tagrineth

Dragony thingy
URAMetroid said:
I think were forgetting something here.
The N64 (NTSC) runs at about 60Hz (59.94Hz) interlaced and therefore only rendering about 30 (29.97) solid frames per second.

AFAIK, N64 video plugin's handel the video as non-interlaced video and render only about 30FPS (29.97FPS).

Gawddayum, this is really starting to irritate me.

Just because the TV is displaying half-frames, doesn't mean you aren't RENDERING FULL FRAMES.

Have you ever heard NTSC referred to as '60 fields per second'?

It's still 60 fucking FPS, it just doesn't quite show all of each one. >_> The screen is updating every 1/60 of a second, what, do you think the designers of interlaced output were dumb enough to require one frame to be locked across two fields?

Go play F-Zero X on a real N64, and you'll see what I mean - it's 10x smoother than pretty much ANY other N64 game, and you know why? Because it's RUNNING AT 60FPS.
 
Tagrineth said:
Gawddayum, this is really starting to irritate me.

Just because the TV is displaying half-frames, doesn't mean you aren't RENDERING FULL FRAMES.

Have you ever heard NTSC referred to as '60 fields per second'?
Yes, I have.
It's still 60 fucking FPS, it just doesn't quite show all of each one. >_> The screen is updating every 1/60 of a second, what, do you think the designers of interlaced output were dumb enough to require one frame to be locked across two fields?
I stand corrected.
Go play F-Zero X on a real N64, and you'll see what I mean - it's 10x smoother than pretty much ANY other N64 game, and you know why? Because it's RUNNING AT 60FPS.
Since F-Zero X runs at 60FPS, then what game runs at 1/10 the speed of F-Zero X?
 
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