Project64 is not perfect

[Iconoclast]

zilmar: this has been moved from the logo thread.

Fourth, it's true: Project64 has the highest reputation and identity, but is mistaken to be the best emulator for the console, when, in terms of emulation, is actually one of the worst, as a core emulator. The only reason you all see it as "standing out" is because of its default graphics plugin, not its truthfully yet only relatively bad core. When 1.7 comes out, however, since its got LLE graphics, high level audio, very nice changes in graphics, sound and RSP emulation, that is the time where Project64 will become the best, except for a few things that I predict to be true:
It will stil have core slowdowns with games such as Gauntlet Legends and Top Gear Overdrive. In fact, Mupen64 is the only emulator that does not have this problem.
It will not be as fast as 1964 but a little more durable as a core, with a much higher CPU usage, however.
It, along with Mupen64, does not have NetPlay and will probably never have NetPlay executed as well as on 1964 for its speed and online stability.
It will not have some of Nemu64's unique features, including but not limited to N64 movie files, sturdy but slow NetPlay, exporting VRML via graphics plugin.To conclude, the other three decent emulators have some unique advantages of their own, and, chances are, Project64 will probably beat them overall, but never make them obsolete.

[zaba_3]

"Project64 has the highest reputation and identity, but is mistaken to be the best emulator for the console, when, in terms of emulation, is actually one of the worst, as a core emulator."

what the hell?Where from you get this information?

[cooliscool]

Yeah, seriously, you're full of shit. PJ64's core is almost rock solid.

[Iconoclast]

Yeah, seriously, you're full of shit. PJ64's core is almost rock solid.Why don't you start justifying nonsense instead of posting it?

Project64's core has DMA crashes with Donkey Kong 64, does not emulate RSP for TWINE 007 like some emulators (ex. Mupen64), has a conflict with Rice's Video Plugin in GoldenEye 007, is the slowest core emulator with several games (ex. Gauntlet Legends, Top Gear Overdrive, Vigilante 8, etc.), is even worse than Nemu64 at NetPlay on Project64k, has core slowdowns in several areas within Mario Party, has audio-video core sync issues with Banjo-Kazooie when the speed limiter is off, crashes with Nemu64's video plugin unlike the other three emulators, doesn't let you assign certain plugins to certain games and, worst of all, mislead users like you who fail to judge an emulator. I could go on, naming even more problems with Project64's core, but no. I'll save my breath. I'll expect you to understand, though it is the emulator with the most effort put into it, it is only the "best" N64 emulator for people who are beginners to N64 emulation. People who know little to nothing about changing plugins. It comes with the best default graphics plugin, spreading and levering compatibility over several games, but its default graphics plugin will never succeed the others for any one game in particular, even.

[squall_leonhart]

and yet, i have

NO dma crashes with project64 in donkey kong 64

no core slowdowns in Banjo Kazooie or Tooie

could care less about other plugins that you have to mess with to get working.

the only times i've seen any issues with project64 is when i'm

a. running it on a crap computer.
b. using cheats, usually.. too many of them.
c. using save states, causing crap code to build up over time.
d. actual Driver bugs.
e. am using a plugin like Glide64, which i've found is extremely unstable, as Plugins which have to rely on a wrapper usually are.

why don't the makers of Glide64 and the hacteraux wrapper just get together and make the Plugin itself Opengl. you get more performance then as in its current format, you get a 10% overhead penalty because of the API conversion.

[Iconoclast]

and yet, i have

NO dma crashes with project64 in donkey kong 64

no core slowdowns in Banjo Kazooie or Tooie

could care less about other plugins that you have to mess with to get working.

the only times i've seen any issues with project64 is when i'm

a. running it on a crap computer.
b. using cheats, usually.. too many of them.
c. using save states, causing crap code to build up over time.
d. actual Driver bugs.
e. am using a plugin like Glide64, which i've found is extremely unstable, as Plugins which have to rely on a wrapper usually are.That's because you haven't played Donkey Kong 64 long enough. It only happens quite infrequently at later stages like Fungi Forest. Clements knows what I'm talking about.

I didn't say you get core slowdowns with Banjo-Kazooie, and I wasn't even TALKING about Banjo-Tooie, which, if you have certain GS cheats enabled for, screw the game up down to 0.01 FPS and below, at least on Project64. Banjo-Kazooie, however, when ran on Nemu64, is fixed and can have its speed limiter removed for a higher speed than that of Project64's.

Also, you overestimate the status of N64 emulation. You will find that, regardless of the graphics plugin you use or even core emulator, some issues will still persist. Challenge me, and I'll show you. Right now, I'm only here to say, it has issues and a lack of features it has that other emulators don't.

[Gent]

Iconoclast I suggest you fill in the comp specs section in your profile.

Also i think this is enough of all this as it has nothing to do what so ever with the reason of this thread.

What ever your feelings towards PJ (and i think you have more then clearly shared them) this is a thread about Project64 site redesign so let this be your 1st and last warning on the matter.

Everyone please stick to topic and join the rest of the members who have posted some great logos in this thread.

Carry on the fantastic work gang

[protofz]

To the dude who started the case of the performance of the PJ64, I also have to tell you to EITHER STICK TO THE TOPIC ABOUT REDESIGN OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE FORUM, RIGHT NOW!!!!! :angry:

[EmuFan]

Oh shut up, you sound like me!

[Iconoclast]

Okay, Gent, my specs were already filled in, but either way, I've tested a hundred and more games on four N64 emulators, and I know what I'm talking about. This isn't to blame on my hardware. I'm not trying to bomb Project64 here; I'm only continuing a topic that was challenged by someone. It is still a damn good emulator, but it's not the best/outcasts the other emulators, contrary to what many of the users here think who just like to pick some random emulator and call it the best. Maybe I could've just PMed them, so sorry for the off-topicness, but the debate also goes well in the thread it started in. As for the warnings, ban me if you must. I've got something to say about emulators, and I believe emutalk is the place to say it.

I think you can delete my posts, anyway, so, I guess, if nobody wants to challenge me, that seems fair. Again, sorry about the chaos I stirred in this thread for a minute.
To the dude who started the case of the performance of the PJ64, I also have to tell you to EITHER STICK TO THE TOPIC ABOUT REDESIGN OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE FORUM, RIGHT NOW!!!!! :angry: Mind your own damn business. You think you own this forum or something?

[squall_leonhart]

do you remember when were were noobs Iconoclast :P

[Gladiac0190]

To the dude who started the case of the performance of the PJ64, I also have to tell you to EITHER STICK TO THE TOPIC ABOUT REDESIGN OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE FORUM, RIGHT NOW!!!!! :angry:

Lol, 2 posts and that noisy... you better stay quiet ;)

[EmuFan]

Yeah, that´s why i was so pissed...He acted like a bitch..Like me, lol.

[zilmar]

I have moved this topic out the logo design thread, it has no place there. But that does not mean that I should kill the disccussion there. Iconoclast has some valid points. Project64 is not perfect, if it was there would be no reason for me to keep working on it. Someday I would like to have it close to as possible perfect. Some of these limitations can be gotten around with plugins, which is why I designed and pushed for a common spec so we could share plugins easily.

Iconoclast: You do make valid points. You just do it to aggressively. For saying pj64 is the worst core is a value judgement which is just going to flair people up. I have not used the other emus to compare, maybe you could say slowest and that would be accurate, but what your criteia is to make that judement is going to very greatly to someone else. So your going to run in to conflict to easily.

[Iconoclast]

Project64's core, which means its performance as an emulator in disregard to the plugins used with it, is not the worst. I was so overly annoyed at Internet misinformation, I started a little bit of my own.

More like, Project64's core can be considered obsolete compared to the other three core emulators (1964, Mupen64 and Nemu64) combined. Now, before you scoff at how stupid this sounds, for me to do a 1 vs. 3 comparison, I do this for two reasons:
Because, despite some exceptions on professional sites like this, it is common for the average Project64 fan to believe that all other N64 emulators are obsolete with Project64 around. Vice versa is actually true.
Also because, while Project64 VS. the other three emulators in terms of core emulation proves to be obsolete as a core in terms of doing things the other emulators can't, no other 1 VS. three emulator combination can be said the same with. For example, Mupen64 VS. the other three emulators used altogether. Mupen64 does fix some emulation issues that the other three don't, therefore, this concept cannot be applied here.However, Project64 is still the best N64 emulator for beginner users, those who don't feel like switching between multiple emulators, those who don't feel like constantly changing plugins (as it comes with gfx and sound plugins that have nicely spread compatibility over almost all games), and generally users who do not aim for perfect emulation, but nice emulator features, such as unique GameShark cheats, experimental debugging, etc.. What I think is, if Project64 focuses on its strongpoints, these areas possibly, and drops concern for its weakpoints, which, even if fixed, may 'lever' out the strongpoints (if you know what I mean -- ex. NetPlay), it will become more of a masterpiece than the other emulators have. Uniqueness is the primary goal, since there are so many other N64 emulators out there. LLE graphics, changing plugins during emulation, these are both fine examples.

To summarize, I only come here to say, as its compatibility is more 'widespread' than that of all other emulators (except Mupen64, which supports almost everything the other cores do, but lacks features like GS cheats and NetPlay) it may be the best emulator for beginner users, but it is NOT the best emulator in general. Perhaps, on the official release of 1.7, it may be once all is summed up and averaged out.
do you remember when were were noobs Iconoclast :PMany changes, many changes.... One day we're just crusing around the forums like everybody else and then BOOM we start ranting about 64 emulation suggestions and political complaints!

[squall_leonhart]

Many changes, many changes.... One day we're just crusing around the forums like everybody else and then BOOM we start ranting about 64 emulation suggestions and political complaints!

Indeed :P

the only few graphical bugs i had in PJ64 are fixed in 1.7 (like the little round things in earth worm jim, being seen through solid walls....)

Project64 has a long way to go.

maybe its time i jumped into programming and helped zilmar with the core :P

[Rice]

1. It will stil have core slowdowns with games such as Gauntlet Legends and Top Gear Overdrive. In fact, Mupen64 is the only emulator that does not have this problem.
2. It will not be as fast as 1964 but a little more durable as a core, with a much higher CPU usage, however.



1964 is the fastest. PJ64 is overall the best. Mupen64 is the slowest, but maybe the most compatible one because it interprets instead of dynamic compiling the CPU code.

Many slow down problems are not CPU core related, but video plugin problems.

Zilmar, SI interrupt delay needs to be paid attention to solve the delay problems with a few games caused by CPU core.

[Iconoclast]

1964 is the fastest. PJ64 is overall the best. Mupen64 is the slowest, but maybe the most compatible one because it interprets instead of dynamic compiling the CPU code.

Many slow down problems are not CPU core related, but video plugin problems.

Zilmar, SI interrupt delay needs to be paid attention to solve the delay problems with a few games caused by CPU core.I still think Nemu64's the slowest, as it consumes much more RAM. I can't test this for sure, though, since I can't figure out how to remove Mupen64's speed limiter, if there is even a way. I remember doing it before in the settings, somehow....

And, yes, 1964 is generally the fastest (next to Corn, but that's another story, there), but speed can change depending upon the game. Take Top Gear Overdrive as an example. This is one out of several games that Mupen64 emulates faster, only for a special reason: The core.

[Clements]

You can remove Mupen64's speed limiter by going into settings > General tab, and unchecking the Limit fps (auto) box. Audio sync must be disabled as well in the audio settings.

[Iconoclast]

That's what I tried, but where is this "audio sync" option? It's not the audio plugin; I'm using Azimer's HLE, here. Force Old School Audio Sync is off, but you know, now that I just tried zilmar's No Sound plugin, the speed limiter is successfully removed on Mupen64....

So, results of emulator speed comparison when using the following plugins for all emulators:
Graphics: Jabo's Direct3D 8 1.6
Audio: No Sound
Input: N64 VirtualPad
RSP: Project64's RSPProject64 1.6: 240 to 300 FPS
1964 0.9.9: 300 to 375 FPS
Mupen64: 111 to 116 FPS

All of these speed comparisons are only approximate and are tested in the File Select menu screen of Super Mario 64, with five minutes of FPS range observation patience, without movement of the hand or my mouse cursor. :P System specification details are in my profile.

Damn...I overestimated Mupen64's core speed, there, but it still fixes core slowdown issues that the other emulators don't. :P Meaning, on the sufficient system for N64 emulation, speed should not be a reason not to use it with its core issue fixes unless you're really aiming for speed for some odd reason.

But what about Nemu64? Nemu64 is difficult to test, because the plugins it forces you to use cannot be used on any other emulator, except you can get the graphics plugin going on the other emulators. I will try comparing Mupen64, the slowest of the above three emulators, to Nemu64 using the following plugins:
Graphics: Nemu64 Graphics
Sound: No Sound (Mupen64), Lac's Audio (Nemu64, with Dummy Mode enabled to disable sound emulation)
Input: N64 VirtualPad (Mupen64), Nemu64 Input (Nemu64)
RSP: Project64's RSP (Mupen64), No RSP (Nemu64)Results:

Mupen64: 105 to 113 FPS (109 FPS AVG)
Nemu64: 95 to 125 FPS (110 FPS AVG)

...Great. So, now what? Nemu64's faster by 1 FPS?

[Clements]

That's what I tried, but where is this "audio sync" option? It's not the audio plugin; I'm using Azimer's HLE, here. Force Old School Audio Sync is off, but you know, now that I just tried zilmar's No Sound plugin, the speed limiter is successfully removed on Mupen64....

Specifically when using Azimer's HLE Audio v0.56 WIP 2, you need to disable both Dynamic Audio Sync and Force Old Audio Sync.


Meaning, on the sufficient system for N64 emulation, speed should not be a reason not to use it with its core issue fixes unless you're really aiming for speed for some odd reason.

CPU cycle use is important for me since I use a laptop (above recommended requirements by a long way), so if a emulator uses too many CPU cycles, it cuts hours of playtime out, can cause overheating, especially if an emulator has no option to allow sleeping when idle and uses 100% CPU.

[Iconoclast]

Ah, okay then.

I guess, for now, I can only rank these four emulators by speed in this order:

1964
Project64
Mupen64
Nemu64I mean, I suppose Nemu64 is faster, since it uses a much 'heavier' input and audio plugin, but it's just so damn hard to decide. It doesn't use an external RSP plugin, but that might not lever it all out.

I think the best thing to do might be to not rate Nemu64's core in terms of speed, because it forces you to use a couple plugins that are slower for emulation than those of other emulators. Even if its core and be officially rated for speed, it may end up to not be worth it.

[Rice]

Project64 1.6: 240 to 300 FPS
1964 0.9.9: 300 to 375 FPS
Mupen64: 111 to 116 FPS

Mupen64: 105 to 113 FPS (109 FPS AVG)
Nemu64: 95 to 125 FPS (110 FPS AVG)


This is still not real CPU core speed. If you really want to test it, you should try to use no_audio and no_video plugins. If you use some video plugins, the video rendering actually takes upto 90% of your PC CPU time.

Both 1964 and PJ64 give you the percentage of how much percent CPU core is using, and how much the plugins are using. You can take the frame rate, divided by the percentage used by the core, to roughly estimate the true CPU core speed.

I won't be surprised if Mupen64 is over 10 times slower than PJ64 or 1964.

[Iconoclast]

Phrrbt. Just try out Top Gear Overdrive. You'll see what I mean. Ain't no plugin going to make any emulator run it faster than Mupen64's core will.

Also, even if Mupen64 is ten times slower, would it really help if it were the fastest N64 emulator? 1964 deserves that title more, because the speed limiter is more easier to access than on Mupen64. A single press of the F9 button! In any case, Mupen64 still fixes just about every core issue, whether in graphics or sound, that the other three emulators combined fix, running at a still good 60 FPS on sufficient systems. Out of these amazing sacrifices for core performance, Mupen64 is still the best core emulator.

But it is not the best emulator, period, because it lacks NetPlay, GS cheats, freeing up CPU for things like using the 4 MB instead of 8 MB expansion pak, and is generally quite slow, as you have proven. In terms of emulation performace, however, the avoidance of issues, it is superior.

[squall_leonhart]

Project64 is easy to speed up

hit f4, and change its cpu priority to above normal or high.... high is actually better :P

[Iconoclast]

Project64 is easy to speed up

hit f4, and change its cpu priority to above normal or high.... high is actually better :PBut, not only is Azimer's Audio, and audio plugin with less or no crackling even with audio sync option off than Jabo's DirectSound, slightly more compliant with 1964, but it's good to use an HLE audio plugin if you want a little tiny bit more speed, and 1964's always a nice combo with that, and Project64 comes with an LLE audio plugin that requires you to make sure the audio sync option is disabled before you can remove the speed limiter successfully. Either way, its speed limiter option, or F4, is still useful, but 1964 was more made to fly by in speed. I could've mentioned Project64 as another example, but I didn't want to.

1964 was also made to fix some core-graphics issues that Project64, Mupen64 and Nemu64 don't. For example, test the game AI Shougi 3. It also has two other features that Project64 doesn't: A nice and stable NetPlay performance and assigning certain plugins to certain games (Mupen64, I know) to make plugin-switching according to game easier. Point being, no emulator is 'overall' the best.

[ScottJC]

I'll admit Project64 is not perfect, but who ever said it was?

[Iconoclast]

Heh...

I think zilmar wanted to pick a less 'aggressive' title, to reduce the war-like ways of my words.

[ScottJC]

Perfection is not easy, especially for an emulator - i'm pretty agressive myself, theres been many a time i've had it out over paticular games (esp Banjo-tooie) which 1.7 has finally fixed.

Project64 is responcible for many of the innovations of n64 emulation, every little helps, you see the latest development, Jabo Finally got Framebuffer to work in Mario Kart 64, even for me! *posts screenshot* that is the first time i've been able to do that at full speed.

I must admit on some of this stuff you have a point, but their still making progress with is a good thing.

[Iconoclast]

I know it isn't. I wasn't trying to complain about it not being perfect, just the supposed overration of the emulator.

Yeah, I noticed that on the pj64.net website...I'm really impressed that they managed to do that without some sort of frame buffer emulation including a rapid slowdown in emulation speed. Btw, Glide64 also fixes that issue, though probably not as well as Jabo's new plugin update without some sort of speed loss, unless you have a 'nice' card.

As for Banjo-Tooie, it isn't just 1.7 that's got it fixed; it's also Mupen64 or 1964 with Jabo's Direct3D 6. Fixes the jigsaw effect, even, as long as you got self-rendered textures checked in plugin configuration (ROM Settings tab).

[ScottJC]

Project64 1.6 and below all have random crashes in-game with Banjo-Tooie, this has been confirmed by many people so its not just me, as far as I know 1.7 doesn't; 1964 0.8.4+Mupens Rsp definatly doesn't, 0.9.9 has the fire egg glitch so It doesn't count hence why I mentioned the older version.

Project64 1.7 is still a bit less ideal for Banjo-tooie, I get constant pauses as it plays, but apparently Zilmar is working on some core optimizations that will stop that so all is good.

[zilmar]

Yer, I am not happy with the current performance of tooie. It is one of the games I will go back to make nicer.

There are a few categories that an emu writer can focus on when improving an emu:
- features
- stability
- compatibility
- speed

focusing on different things can cause issues in the other areas. The main reason Pj64 is refered to as the best is cause it is extremely good (not nessarly the top in each area). It is more one of the design methods we follow. 99% of users will not want to tweak, they want to just install and play. Since most of the top games on most of the common computers these days play well. That is why we have that title.

I think I might just to flush out more of this and write a blog post latter this week on these issues and put it up on pj64.net latter this week.

Note: the title I choose so that this disccusion could continue outside of the logo discussion with out it just being a flame war. It seems to be working at the moment we are haveing a decent disccusion about it. Well I think so anyway.

[Iconoclast]

On a side note, GameShark cheats WILL crash the game. There are four of them that screw up Banjo-Tooie, whether it be a crash or a GUI failure. Project64 may crash even without the cheats, though it's never happened to me without them, but Mupen64's core also has this game pretty nicely.
Yer, I am not happy with the current performance of tooie. It is one of the games I will go back to make nicer.

There are a few categories that an emu writer can focus on when improving an emu:
- features
- stability
- compatibility
- speed

focusing on different things can cause issues in the other areas. The main reason Pj64 is refered to as the best is cause it is extremely good (not nessarly the top in each area). It is more one of the design methods we follow. 99% of users will not want to tweak, they want to just install and play. Since most of the top games on most of the common computers these days play well. That is why we have that title.

I think I might just to flush out more of this and write a blog post latter this week on these issues and put it up on pj64.net latter this week.

Note: the title I choose so that this disccusion could continue outside of the logo discussion with out it just being a flame war. It seems to be working at the moment we are haveing a decent disccusion about it. Well I think so anyway.I think, more like, 40-80 percent won't want to bother to tweak. Some might care about graphics issues more than others. A lot of users here have been posting about graphics issues under the Project64 forum.

In any case, Project64 does not need any less tweaking than the other three decent emulators to get games running just as well...except Nemu64's and 1964's default graphics plugin, which can easily be changed to match Project64's game compatibility and graphics emulation and probably even surpass for some games if the core is involved.

Even if Project64 is the most simplistic, in relativity to the rest, emulator to quickly just install and play without tweaking, that does not make it the best. It might make it the easiest for those who are lazy, but it does not make it the best emulator.

[zilmar]

I think, more like, 40-80 percent won't want to bother to tweak. Some might care about graphics issues more than others. A lot of users here have been posting about graphics issues under the Project64 forum.

I know this number seems lower to you, then to us but that is cause you pay attention to the forum where people go when they do want to do something about it. The number of people who actually visit the forum is a lot less then the people who use the emu.


In any case, Project64 does not need any less tweaking than the other three decent emulators to get games running just as well...except Nemu64's and 1964's default graphics plugin, which can easily be changed to match Project64's game compatibility and graphics emulation and probably even surpass for some games if the core is involved.

Not saying other emus can not match pj64 cause that is untrue, they can be worse, the same or better depening on the game and how you tweak it. I am not saying pj64 is the best, I am just saying why it was refrered to as the best.


Even if Project64 is the most simplistic, in relativity to the rest, emulator to quickly just install and play without tweaking, that does not make it the best. It might make it the easiest for those who are lazy, but it does not make it the best emulator.

This can easily make it the best to some people. It depends on how you judge an emulator to define the best.

What would I have to change in pj64 for you to say it was the best? What is your definition?

[Iconoclast]

Okay, then, I misunderstood.
What would I have to change in pj64 for you to say it was the best? What is your definition?A software program that is superior in succession of its purpose of emulation to all other software with the same purpose.

To be superior to all other software with the same purpose, it must, logically, be best at the purpose, emulation. Emulation can be defined as,

"The successful execution of software on a computer system it was not designed to run on."

Now, logically, Mupen64 fixes more issues that Project64 doesn't than vice versa, but, on the other hand, Project64 and 1964 (and Nemu64) emulate the GameShark cheats feature. To sum up, all of those issues for Project64 I mentioned earlier? Mupen64 fixes all of those. Therefore, logically, it must be superior at emulation, but not all-around. Two things: Speed and features.

Now, what isn't emulation, is making an emulator so it asks for minimal or no tweaking to get the game going. That's not emulation, that's simplification.

[squall_leonhart]

hmm,.. would i be right in saying.. that to get perfect LLE, you would need the bios from the n64?

[zilmar]

hmm,.. would i be right in saying.. that to get perfect LLE, you would need the bios from the n64?

There is no bios in the n64

[squall_leonhart]

what controls the pcb and boots the system then?

[zilmar]

what controls the pcb and boots the system then?

There is a boot chip. this will initilize things, work out to boot from the 64dd or cart, copy the boot off the source, then validate it has not been changed, then boot this. Once a game has booted, the boot code is hidden and is not accessible to the game any more. So all code needed to be run has to be in the cart.

Pj64 starts emulation at the point of booting we set all memory and registers as if it had gone through the boot chip.

[squall_leonhart]

ahh.. i see, it has a bootblock, really old computers (the cartridge kind) had something similar.