[$threadinfo[title]]

[AlphaWolf]

They said it couldn't be done...

Paraphrased from Tagrineth on IRC
You can't upgrade laptop video cards.

They said it wasn't obtainable...

Originally posted by nephalim
You have a laptop yet at the same time you are telling me to upgrade my video card? You do know that's nearly impossible, right? They don't sell laptop cards retail, they are nearly impossible to find, and the computer maker won't upgrade them.

They mocked me on the streets...

Originally posted by jack
obviously [you] haven't advance beyond highschool Algebra

But needless to say...they were wrong... :happy:

The card: ATI Mobility 9 64MB

This card is the same as an ATI Radeon 9000 (pro?) in terms of speed and features, in fact, the core is the exact same one as the desktop version. There are only two key differences with this card, the first being that the chips which performed the best with lower voltage and produced the least heat off of the assembly lines were selected to be used with this card. The second is the form factor, which as you can see below, is nothing like the desktop version:

[nephalim]

They said it couldn't be done...



They said it wasn't obtainable...



They mocked me on the streets...



But needless to say...they were wrong... :happy:

The card: ATI Mobility 9 64MB

This card is the same as an ATI Radeon 9000 (pro?) in terms of speed and features, in fact, the core is the exact same one as the desktop version. There are only two key differences with this card, the first being that the chips which performed the best with lower voltage and produced the least heat off of the assembly lines were selected to be used with this card. The second is the form factor, which as you can see below, is nothing like the desktop version:

OK Alphawolf, tell me what model laptop you have (I remember you saying 8000, which I really hope is the case,) what mobo you have (815e on my 8000,) and how to get Dell to sell me one of those (as well as it's cost,) and I admit defeat :D

[AlphaWolf]

From start to end, took 5 minutes:

[AlphaWolf]

Keyboard and display cover (not sure why they call it that, but whatever) off....

Old Geforce2Go just to the right of the DVD drive, CPU is the metal square to the right of it.

[AlphaWolf]

GF2 Go removed, tiny little AGP slot exposed:

[AlphaWolf]

M9 card in place :D

[nephalim]

Keyboard and display cover (not sure why they call it that, but whatever) off....

Old Geforce2Go just to the right of the DVD drive, CPU is the metal square to the right of it.
That's strange, I distinctly remember the video card instructions having you dismantling the lcd.

[AlphaWolf]

Screen turned on when I booted it up with the new card, which means all went well. Despite what dell said, the card is fully compatible with my system.

[AlphaWolf]

Here are the 3dmark scores for the Geforce2 Go, they are a bit shabby:

[AlphaWolf]

Here are the benchmarks for the ATI M9. They are a bit behind modern desktop marks, but they aren't too shabby considering:

[AlphaWolf]

The overall image quality, even in 2D, has improved on both my CRT and my LCD with this card; its a huge improvement in just about everything. Those 3dmark scores may be a bit low since I don't know how to properly tweak modern ATI drivers yet, but I can learn that overtime. This card also gets better battery life than that older slower gf2go.

And nephalm, there is no need to touch the actual display itself, you only need to disconnect the cable that connects to the card.

BTW, here is the current spec of my laptop:

Dell Inspiron 8000
Pentium III 1.0 Ghz
15" UXGA IBM LCD
ATI M9 64MB
256MB Ram
ESS Maestro 3i Sound Card
8x DVD-ROM
20GB HDD
BIOS Revision A22

[CpU MasteR]

My laptop is also the same way as AlphaWolfs, can be upgraded.

Dell Inspiron 2600, needs a new Video card because I am sick of intel chipshits.

[ScottJC]

same speed as my 128mb ddr radeon 9000, i doubt it :D

[vampireuk]

Nice job Alpha, plus yes you can upgrade your video card in a laptop :P

[nephalim]

Alphawolf, kindly tell me what mobo you have (i'm assuming 815e, not that important,) and where to get one. :flowers:

[AlphaWolf]

My board does use the 815e chipset, however, there are different revisions of inspiron 8000 motherboards that are based on this chipset. Mine is the last i8k revision, all I know about it beyond that is its part number is 1C062. There are revisions before this one that are compatible with GF4 and M9, but, I have no idea which ones, so just be careful if your motherboard part number is not the same as mine. Also, be careful about what screen you have, because the screen is an even bigger issue with upgrading the video card on dell laptops. There are probably more incompatible screen models than there are incompatible motherboard models. You can buy this card at the phone number I mentioned earlier.

The part number for the ATI card I got was 4U284. I can't remember the part number for the GF2go 32MB, I think I mentioned it in the same thread that I mentioned the phone number though. The GF2go should definitely be compatible with your motherboard/lcd combo if its an i8k.

You need to be a bit agressive in trying to get ahold of these parts. The reason why is because the people that work in the spare parts department have the collective intelligence of a rock. My order was canceled 3 times before they finaly shipped it. The good thing though is that they gave me free overnight shipping because of that. They might tell you that its got a huge back order of 3 months or that its out of stock, because their inventory system is all out of whack. Just say "I don't care what it takes, place the order anyway god damnit!". They said the turnaround time for mine would have been 90 days, but it only took 8.

[nephalim]

My board does use the 815e chipset, however, there are different revisions of inspiron 8000 motherboards that are based on this chipset. Mine is the last i8k revision, all I know about it beyond that is its part number is 1C062. There are revisions before this one that are compatible with GF4 and M9, but, I have no idea which ones, so just be careful if your motherboard part number is not the same as mine. Also, be careful about what screen you have, because the screen is an even bigger issue with upgrading the video card on dell laptops. There are probably more incompatible screen models than there are incompatible motherboard models. You can buy this card at the phone number I mentioned earlier.

The part number for the ATI card I got was 4U284. I can't remember the part number for the GF2go 32MB, I think I mentioned it in the same thread that I mentioned the phone number though. The GF2go should definitely be compatible with your motherboard/lcd combo if its an i8k.

You need to be a bit agressive in trying to get ahold of these parts. The reason why is because the people that work in the spare parts department have the collective intelligence of a rock. My order was canceled 3 times before they finaly shipped it. The good thing though is that they gave me free overnight shipping because of that. They might tell you that its got a huge back order of 3 months or that its out of stock, because their inventory system is all out of whack. Just say "I don't care what it takes, place the order anyway god damnit!". They said the turnaround time for mine would have been 90 days, but it only took 8.

I don't see how such minor changes to the 815e would make the M9 not work. (What does your bios say FMI?) I know I don't have the latest revision, it was right before they got speedstep working without a reboot/standby to "reinit" the system. You don't have the latest i8k revision either! The latest i8k revision was the 815em or 815eg or something I forgot exactly, they added that when they fixed the speedstep (to allow actual "stepping:P) Here is my original system configuration -
1 2C759 Processor, PIII-CUM, 900, 256K, PGA2, C0
1 0D145 SUBASSY, Liquid Crystal Display, 15, HITACHI, V.2, Lonsdale/Lavaca
1 1C062 Assembly, PWA, Main, PHOTON, Lonsdale/Lavaca

All of this has been replaced, however, so it doesn't mean jack, unfortunately. I can't seem to find out where to see what LCD I currently have, although I have seen it on Dell's Support Site somewhere before, I remember.

I might be considering the Geforce 2go just because it's possibly more compatible (but the jury is still out on that one, that's much more important to me, and I can save money in the process and be assured of compatibility.)

I'm not happy with everything i've seen/heard from ATI. They DO have the best laptop-specific stuff, however, such as scaling (which is important!), which i'm sure the Geforce 2go can't even touch, so that is yet another consideration.

EDIT: Can you please tell me what the 2go most closely resembles (and what chipset) it uses (desktop,) and the overall ranking of that card/chipset?

[AlphaWolf]

Hmm..hitachi screen, I have heard those don't work with anything above a gf2go, not certain though, go read the dell forums, theres more info there.

But, if you want to pull a shenanagin, heres what you could try. (note that could doesn't necessarily mean it will work) You could place an order for the 4u284, and once it arrives, find out if it works. If not, call dell and tell them that they screwed up and sent you the wrong part, then they will refund you the entire price, shipping and all, and allow you to make the order for the correct gf2go instead, possibly with the shipping removed on that as well.

Why do I think it might work? Well, one of those 3 times that they screwed up my order, the idiot on the other end of the line place me an order for a gf2go. I didn't find this out until I checked the order status on dells website the next day, and I called and canceled it. Unexpectedly though, it showed up at my door a few days later. I called dell, and told them I didn't want this damn card and to take it back, they then came and picked it up the next day, and didn't charge me a dime for anything related to that specific order. The 4u284 arrived only a few days later.

EDIT: I was just looking around on the dell forums, I noticed that nobody has said anything about whether or not the M9 works with the hitachi brand screen, and the M9 is said to be more hardware compatible with I8k's than the GF4go. The GF4go is confirmed to not work with that screen though.

[nephalim]

I said right underneath that list, that ALL of that has been replaced! That was my original screen, not my current screen, so it means nothing unless they replaced it with the same screen. How can I find out what screen I have (and why in gods name would it matter, I don't get it.) I think it might be an IBM.

If you didn't compare the 2go to the M9 in the other thread i'd like to hear a comparison. I asked some specific questions, both here and there.

[AlphaWolf]

Well, generaly when they RMA a part (e.g. come to your house and replace it, or you send it to them and they replace it), they replace it with the exact same brand and model that you started with. If you think they did change it to a different brand for some reason, then you can take apart the display (takes a bit of work), and read the sticker on the back of it that says what brand and model it is.

As for comparing the GF2go to the M9, I would say that the M9 is in general far superior. In response to that thread a long time ago about the LCD resolution, the M9 delivers exactly what they were saying it delivered on the dell forums, the scaling engine is tip top and I am now comfortable using any odd resolution on my LCD, which previously looked bad on the gf2go. My only complaint about the M9 is that since its an ATI card, the drivers realy do suck.

[nephalim]

OK, After a LOT of hard work, i've found out I have an IBM LCD! That's good news, right? However, it's SXGA+, and I hear the M9 doesn't work with SXGA screens...

[AlphaWolf]

The Hitachi brand is the biggest compatibility breaker for the GF4go and M9 cards. But, the M9 does work with some SXGA+ LCDs, namely I have heard of somebody with a samsung brand SXGA+ LCD who has gotten it to work. The general oppinion of IBM branded screens seems to be that they are of pretty good quality and compatibility. I have not heard of anybody using an M9 with an IBM SXGA+ though, so that is, for the most part, uncharted waters...However, the GF4go is confirmed to work with the IBM SXGA+, and seeing how the M9 is more compatible than the GF4, your odds might be good, its probably your motherboard that you should be most worried about.

[nephalim]

OK, I took the big plunge and ordered me a Geforce 4go 64mb. I think that was the best choice. We'll see if i'm wrong. Anyways, there's a return policy, and I can get store credit and get a M9 if I wanted to try it, but from the short time i've spent on the Dell's Support, the M9 is hit or miss (and debatably doesn't work with SXGA screens,) whereas the 4go is a pretty sure fire thing (unless you got the Hitachi screen, which I don't.) I have heard some people having random boot/shutdown/standby problems, but I already have plenty of those, so I don't care. The best part is the video bios is included in the 8000's (they put the 2go and the 4go's bios upgrades packaged together.)

The 4go was $121 + shipping and the M9 was $130 + shipping. I paid $127 total. Not bad at ALL. Practically the same price, strangely. I imagine that the M9 has marginally better scaling, but screw that, ATI has given me so much grief with it's crappy drivers I want something that does what it's supposed to. And the 4go has a new proper mobile technology, supposedly.

FYI, I called their order place (Dell's) and had no problem whatsoever. I don't think the woman even understood it was for a laptop (I went the "spare parts" route.) The "graphics card," she said. Not a single problem. They must have recently changed policy, I am POSITIVE they never sold laptop GFX cards, there were hundreds of people bitching and moaning on Dell's support boards about how they couldn't upgrade.

Finally, what's the 4go compare to in a desktop card?

Oh well, wish me luck. Any comments?

EDIT: Oh, BTW, I checked Ebay and they had starting bids of 125-150 for G4G cards, nevermind the extroadinarily high shipping!!! You can buy one straight from Dell for $120!
EDIT 2: As for my mobo, I have the same one, or newer, than yours. I can find out if I wanted to on monday (I should have had them pull the full parts list of all the replacements they put in my system, darn.)

EDIT 3: Is there some sort of bios flashing ritual I need to go through to get the proper firmware onto that G4G?

[AlphaWolf]

Right, the reason that these cards sell higher on ebay than they do from dell direct is because you can only get these cards if you actualy live in the US; Dell wont ship them anywhere else, hence foreigners have to buy them second hand. The M9 is in much higher demand than the GF4go, so thats why its easier to order the GF4. I had somebody offer me $160 for my M9, but I would rather not get rid of it honestly (well, not unless they offered at least $200). BTW, the M9 does work with SXGA screens, it has been confirmed to work with samsung ones, just I am not sure if anybody has tried it on an IBM one. The main one we just know it to not work on is the hitachi one, which unfortunately, most inspiron 8000s were shipped with.

As for the firmware, just upgrade your bios firmware to the latest before upgrading the card and it should minimize any potential problems.

EDIT: BTW, make sure your getting the 440go and not the 420go, wouldn't want to get a lower end card where its not necessary. As for my current driver status though, the catalyst 3.1 drivers actualy perform quite well. Its still a sad fact that the latest ones are shitty however.

[nephalim]

Yep, it's definetely the 440. What's the desktop equivalent?
If it doesn't work, i'll try the M9. If that doesn't work, I need a new battery :P
The M9 worked for one guy with a samsung screen. Everyone else said no good with SXGA screens. It's hit or miss either way, really, and I prefer an Nvidia product. No good, then i'll get an M9 (or try one, at least.)

How do you find out your MOBO revision? Any idea as to what I should be looking for to figure out if it'll work?

OH, I also need to figure out what drivers to use...

[nephalim]

Hmm, it seems this SXGA IBM & M9 ARE compatible, from one report I dug up. Here is a snippage:
<snip>
The IBM Lcd is the most compatible of all. It IS /compatible with the Radeon 7500 and the Radeon 9000 (which I am now running, no issues since the day i dropped it in). And the Gf4 is also no hassle. But I don't know if there is something in your particular case to make things weird (eg you got your motherboard replaced or something). But I have had no issues upgrading mine (which started out as a P3M 866 with a 16MB Gf2 Go and 8X DVD, check sig for current specs).
<snip>

Inspiron 8100
~Pentium III-M @1.2Ghz~
256 MB RAM
40GB Hard Disk
16X fixed CD-RW
~64MB Mobility Radeon 9000~
15" SXGA+ IBM LCD

I think I might change my order on Monday (Damn place is closed all weekend, I hope it's not too late Monday.) Opinions?

[AlphaWolf]

/me shrugs

The only information I have seen on motherboards is that it is hit-and-miss compatibility; no concrete revision or model numbers. GF4go 440 should be the equivalent of a desktop GF4mx 440. So far as which card you want, that all depends on what your preference is. -but- word is that the M9 is the best video card that the i8000 through i8200's form factor will ever see, with the exception of the quadro470go, which is essentialy a geforce 4 ti4200, but nobody has been able to acquire one of those cards, and the retail price is over $300.

[nephalim]

Sorry for all the posting here...

Anyways, I called up Dell, and went to change my order (I think the deciding factor was DX9 support w/ pixel shading, along with a report that it WILL work in my system. Plus, a Radeon 9000 is far superior to a Geforce 2 (essentially what the 4go is.) I have the same system as AlphaWolf, down to the bios revision, except for the SXGA vs. UXGA screen, which I found a report it is compatible. The only wildcard is my mobo, it was replaced, and when they replaced it when I started up my system it re"detected" every single component in my machine, so god knows what I wound up getting.
Anyways, they couldn't find an in-stock 64mb Radeon (this lady looked for like a half hour,) and wouldn't put an order (even though I knew it wouldn't take too long.) I opted to try the 32mb M9 instead, I didn't really care about the extra memory. Here's the weird part - it cost MORE! It was $139 instead of $130. It comes with some sort of assembly. The part number the lady listed for me was 8X960, and I can't find this part number anywhere to check for myself. Oh well, more rolling of the dice, this is like a serious adventure here. I wonder what the hell it is....perhaps an upgrade of 32mb memory! :)

EDIT: The correct part # is 5E441. I still can't figure out why it's more expensive, I think it's because they actually have it in stock, and are discouraging or disallowing people from buying the 64mb, the bastards are trying to milk us me thinks.

[ra5555]

yo, that m8 looks greats :P. I am getting a notebook soon for university, I don't really like dell, but I still donno what I really should get. A friend suggested Toshiba, but the graphics cards is a GF4GO420, which is crap.

So my question is, what is the best value preformance notebook ?

[nephalim]

I don't know about best value, but Dell is the best overall, (and not bad when it comes to the price.) They don't charge tax is alot of states, including New York, which is excellent. They have the best service you can find, they offer completecare now for home users which I really wish I had (if you piss on your notebook, they'll fix it:P) Great warranty service, fast ordering, etc. Their technical support is lacking, but I have yet to see tech support that isn't lacking. However, if something is broken, they will quite often send you a replacement immediately, often allowing you to keep what you have until it arrives and then send it back once you recieve the replacement.

As for their notebooks, they are top notch. They've been making notebooks for a LONG time, and are of great quality (the casing isn't the best, but it's good, that's the only bad thing. I've had 2 different I8K notebooks, and in both of them the modular CD-RW keeps falling out. The screen isn't attached great, either. Otherwise, it's a great notebook (the desktop replacement brand.) It has a nice full size keyboard, a trackstick (I like it, some don't,) AND a touchpad. Their screens are breathtaking. The only problem with the desktop replacement (it's currently the 8500) is that they are big and heavy, weighing in at over 8 pounds, so they are not good if you plan on bringing it out of the house often.

Their components are top-of-the-line, they are now offering (in new notebooks) either the 4go 4200, or the M9. The 4go 4200 is the best, I think. I'm going to do a sample configuration and let you know what I come up with.

OK, *drools*

$2,315 - $300 mail-in rebate (Until 7/2, act fast!) = $2k

Inspiron 8500
2.4GHZ P4-M Processor, 512K L2, 8K L1
Intel 845MP Mobo, PSB @ 400Mhz
15.4" WUXGA+ Screen (Wide Aspect, Ultrasharp) (UXGA = 1600x1200, which is important for gaming if you don't have an ATI card. The scaling on Nvidia cards, as they are new to the mobile card market, is lacking. But if you have a UXGA you play all your games at 800x600.)
512MB DDR, Up to 2GB (266 MHZ) (2 Dimms/2 Slots) (They overcharge on memory, you are better off upgrading it yourself, but for this purpose I did factory installed. Getting 1 Dimm instead of 2 is like twice the price, not worth it.)
64MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce 4 4200 Go AGP 4X Graphics
40GB Ulta-ATA HD
No Floppy Drive (I think they were like $50 for a modular one.)
WinXP Home (To be destroyed and Pro Installed manually.)
Integrated 10/100 NIC & V.92 56k Modem
24x CD-RW/DVD Combo Drive
72 Whr Battery (You can expect about 1.5-3 hours per battery, that's what I get, depending on what i'm doing.)
*2 Year Warranty, At-Home Service, Complete Care*
(A bunch of junk)

Ports:
IEEE 1394 integrated port
Serial Port
Parallel Port
SVGA Port
S-Video for TV-Out for S-video, and S/PDIF
Serial infrared communications port (lrDA-1.1 compliant)
Headphones, Audio Line-Out, Microphone jacks
2 USB 2.0 Ports
2 PCMCIA Slots (Warm Swap Capable)

And a ****ing cherry on top. Did I mention the AC Adapter supports 220 Volts for easy travelling?

:drool:

EDIT: I know you wanted value performance, but I just gave you performance. They have other, cheaper, smaller, yet comparable notebooks. Go to their site and check it out yourself. I really do strongly recommend Dell, they have the best balance of price and performance (and support.)

EDIT 2: Toshibas are the one of the few notebooks that are better than Dells, component wise, but they are more expensive. Gateway's are about the same quality yet much more expensive. Cheaper you might find Sony, which you should stay away from at all costs. There are many others but they allude me right now.

[AlphaWolf]

Woa, carefull about that part, it may not be what you think it is. The M7 costs $169 and its a radeon 7500, not as good as the M9. They don't adjust their prices over time based on depreciation, no matter what the spare part prices stay fixed. If I were you I would be persistent about getting the 4u284. Its more of a matter of getting a competent person on the line who will place the order even though its marked as being out of stock or back ordered. I had to get somebody like this on the line in order to finaly get the correct part.

I *think* that 5E441 is a 32mb ATI M4.

[nephalim]

No, it's an M9, I triple checked.

EDIT: I triple checked with idiots. If I get a M4 I am going to KILL them, and will take back every positive thing I said about Dell.

EDIT: I am not VERY pissed. They thought it was an M9 because the description ONLY reads "Ati 32MB". ARGH!@ What freaking idiots and stupid systems they have there. I take back every positive thing I said about Dell. I tried to update my information, and they couldn't get it right FIVE times!!!! I'm STILL waiting for my credit card to get credited for the 4go. Argh, I hate Dell.
(They do have great laptops though.)

I said "fuck it", spent the extra $25, and bought one from Ebay.

[AlphaWolf]

I would just be persistent with Dells spare parts hotline. One person on the dell forums told me to ask for a guy named Edward, although I couldn't get ahold of that guy specificaly, the guy I did get ahold of was one of the smarter ones. At first he told me that the part was out of stock and that I couldn't place the order. I asked him if there is any way that he can just place it anyways, and he said that would be fine, but the back order was 90 days. I said thats fine, just place the order for the part anyways. Sure enough, the ATI M9 arrived 8 days later.

[ra5555]

Hey thanks nephalim and Alpha, there is still about 3 months left untill university starts, so I can still wait. Hopefully the prices will come down a bit (Readon 9600M will be out right?) and I will get a notebook with M9.

Thanks again :sorcerer:

[nephalim]

Radeon M9? Or 9600? They'll probably still call the 9600 the M9 as the 4200 is still the 4 go. I think they are due for a Geforce 4200 go equivelant. I wonder what the Radeon Mobility 9600 will hold...oh well, it's extroadinarily doubtful it'll work in my machine, and i'm happy with my Radeon 9000 (assuming it works.) For a new machine however, the 4200 go is the best mobile GFX card currently available.

Is Dell going to sell the 460 go? I don't see any reason why they would, a waste of NVidia's time making a marginally better mobile GFX card like that.

What's the M9 equivalent to in a desktop card?

OK guys, enough flooding this thread, last post until I get my new hardware, unless someone asks me something :)
One last thing: Alphawolf, when you get a chance, can you tell me any special procedure or anything to keep in mind upgrading my GFX card?

[AlphaWolf]

M9 is -exactly- the same as a desktop radeon 9000, the only difference is the form factor. The core runs on less power, but its actualy the same core that the desktop version uses. The only difference is that when the chips are made on the assembly line, the ones that perform the best with lower voltage are selected for the mobility line.

This is pretty much the same way that processor speeds are selected. When a chip company makes a processor, they aren't aiming for a specific clock speed. They just make the processors based on a certain dye process, and then after the processor is made, they test how it runs at different speeds. Depending on how hot it gets, and how stable it runs, they will mark it for that respective clock speed.

[nephalim]

I'm anxiously awaiting my card...hopefully Tuesday, probably Wednesday. 2 quick questions - how does the Radeon number system work? Generally, the higher the number, the better the card? What's the difference between pro and non-pro? The other question is how are you using the catalyst drivers? Don't you need to use the laptop drivers?

I have read that the 64mb and 32mb M9's are NOT the same. The memory and gpu speeds are significantly different. For this reason, i'm glad I didn't get a 32mb anyway.

I have corrected my information with Dell's people at LEAST five times. They STILL can't get it right. What the hell is the problem? Argh, i'm so frustrated with Dell right now.

[AlphaWolf]

You need to modify the ini files on ATIs reference drivers, same thing you need to do with nvidias detonator series. Theres a little program that does it, I am not sure of the exact URL, look on the dell forums.