U.S. Surveillance over Security Council Members?

[2fast4u]

this just in:

http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,905936,00.html

if this story turns out to be true, bush is in deep shit if i may say so.

what do you guys think?

/me points at the usual people

 

[vampireuk]

I think it is disgusting horrible propaganda, there is no evidence and its all speculation

/me looks at himself

oh wait I'm vamp!

If this turns out to be true Bush may has well just resign right now...

 

[sytaylor]

:baaa:

Seriously, they want to know what people on the council think? Hmm, i just wonder why that could be.. If they are breaking any international laws they'll have their wrists slapped in due course, but there are far worse things they could have done. Imagine if they intimated smaller nations into "keeping quiet"..

Why does that sound familiar? :getlost:

 

[2fast4u]

so basically you dont see anything wrong in spying on other nations, mr. atlantissimus?

and you dont see anything wrong with putting pressure on small nations to get em to agree either? this has happened during the first gulf war, if u want ill dig up the examples. but the basic question first plz.

 

[vampireuk]

Good old 1984

Edit: Also, if? IF they are breaking international law? This is wiping ones ass with international law. I'm sure if this was your privacy been invaded with no regard for your rights or the law you would have something else to say about it.

 

[sytaylor]

imho,

spying < intimidation
pressure < intimidation

Spying is still wrong, but there are other nations on the UN council doing worse to get their own way. At least with political pressure there is choice at the end of the day.

If i had to choose I'd rather have some form of free speech over privacy. I would have something to say about my privacy being invaded but I'd say it with the free speech I would have from not being intimidated.

 

[2fast4u]

sy: actually political pressure is what worries me as it can have harzadous effects on countries. example: in 1990, when the security council was to back desert storm, jemen voted no. the next day, the usa stopped all economic help to the country. note, im not questioning who was right or not, but i want to show how strong political pressure on international base can be. its the old big stick policy, if you are not with us, we hit you. as for those who are willing to vote yes, are getting monetary aid en masse. so no ... there is _no_ choice at the end of the day actually.

im sure there is tons of shit going on from other nations or from the u.s. (which shows how much we trust each other ) but the fact that his has been revealed is frightingly enough.

my basic question is, should money decide over war and peace? no it shouldnt, but it will so it seems.

 

[vampireuk]

Well Turkey backed out of a multi billion dollar aid package, that tells me something stinks about this whole thing.

 

[2fast4u]

actually their govt was willing to make the deal, but the parliament disagreed ... good old conscience i thought u were dead.

 

[sytaylor]

my basic question is, should money decide over war and peace? no it shouldnt, but it will so it seems.

Money isn't deciding war and peace, a political agenda is.. Bush believes saddam should be removed and he is trying the way he believes to be right. I'd much rather see someone try to convince somebody else of something than I would see an entity intimidate another into saying/not syaing osmething.

Turkey prooves pressure isn't everything imho

 

[2fast4u]

I'd much rather see someone try to convince somebody else of something than I would see an entity intimidate another into saying/not syaing osmething.

imo throwing around money isnt "convincing" its buying out. or how would u call it? they are trying to buy opinions. remember, if you have made someone shut up, it doesnt neccesarily mean you have convinced him.

and .. actually turkeys government was ready to accept the deal, they just made the calculation w/o the rest of the parliament members. not exactly a fine stance, still.

 

[sytaylor]

Cmon, theres a difference between buying out and offering political favour. Aid is not cash, it can't be used for destruction, just propaganda..

If i had made someone shut up I would have acheieved my goal without giving the other side a chance. If i offer aid in exchange for help am i really doing something that bad? Lets face it no one country can afford to give aid to everyone who needs it, so putting a qualifier there is smart in my opinion.

 

[2fast4u]

Cmon, theres a difference between buying out and offering political favour.

not really imo. making a political descision in connection with the possibility of getting aid/money (however u call it) isnt much better than taking bribe. there is no difference in practice.

If i offer aid in exchange for help am i really doing something that bad?

well in general not at all. a country has to decide who they will give aid to and they wont pick their worst enemy. but this question is about war and peace, its about human lifes and no country should be dependant on anything besides the conscience of its citizens and politicans. giving money in exchange for backing a war is dirty imo.

im sure our different opinions are also related to our opposing opinions on an iraq war, but not related to that, i think this is a very general position that one has to take.

 

[sytaylor]

no country should be dependant on anything besides the conscience of its citizens and politicans.

Although I agree that point demonstrates the crucial difference between us. You're idealising again, something not possible when dealing with real problems. Ideals are nice, and we all have them, but at times you have to accept neccacery evils, or else we may as well just lie down and let people shoot us.

If you have power, no matter how you maintain the skirmishes, if you lay down your sword someone is gonna stab you in the back while you write that peace treaty...

Its a sick world, but hey, thats human nature. It'll resolve itself when the world has a crisis big enough to endanger everyone, we'll either self destruct or come together... i hope its the latter.