browsers

[Tri-Force]

what browser do you guys use and why. im looking for something that might be a little better than what i use now but i doubt i will find one.

what i have right now is Neo Planet which uses IE. It has the ease of use AOL did but without the annoying crap. and it has it's own intergrated E-mail so i dont have to wait for outlook to load.

 

[Sukh]

NeoPlanet is possibly the worst browser you could ever use. Just use normal IE5.5/6 and you'll be fine

 

[AlphaWolf]

I use mozilla, less bloat and the mail client is nice.

 

[blizz]

mozilla and opera

 

[Jaz]

IE6, just because.. well, it's there.

 

[Stalkid64]

Opera. Very customisable, non-M$ owned, mouse-gestures, built-in popup window disabler... hey wait a minute! He admitted to AOL usage..! Get him!

 

[Jaz]

... hey wait a minute! He admitted to AOL usage..! Get him!

Almost missed that one! *lol*

 

[AlphaWolf]

I just use mozilla because its quite noticeably faster, has a sleeker interface, and outlook is the slowest mail client. If there is a wrong browser though, it is IE, because among other things, IE doesn't follow the HTML spec.

EDIT: weird...replied to rat's post and mine appears above it....Martin, your database is broke

 

[Ruesselschnurps]

Opera. Very customisable, non-M$ owned, mouse-gestures, built-in popup window disabler...

That's right, allthough Opera doesn't show all contents correctly its the best choice for me....deactivate / activatepopup/java/javascript/sound/animations/videos & stuff "on the fly"..and it allows me to have 40 emutalk windows opened without crashing my system

 

[RatTrap]

weird how there's still a bunch of ppl who don't like IE coz it's MS..

right now.. the only browser that is most compatible is IE.. i don't see why ppl have to not use it coz it's MS.. so ridicules.. just messes up a whole bunch of websites for you.. also there's alot of things that only work on IE.. tiny details on websites that don't work on NS or MZ etc.. anyways.. if you want to be able to see momst of the websites online with most of their content intact.. i sudgest you use IE.. NS and MZ will get there someday i guess.. but they are allways behind.. i'm not an MS fanboy or anything like that.. but i don't understand why ppl hate MS eather.. it's just ridicules to me..

 

[Tri-Force]

He admitted to AOL usage..! Get him!

that was in the past and a big mistake that wasn't my fault. but now part of my job at best buy is to tell convince people that aol SUCKS!!! it's quite fun too since i have a LOT of hate for aol.

 

[Tri-Force]

NeoPlanet is possibly the worst browser you could ever use. Just use normal IE5.5/6 and you'll be fine

wha'ts wrong with it. it works great for me. favorites easy to get to. menus easy to use. just drop it in a group, name it and its easy to get to a site again. no more having to scroll through a huge list of 200 sites to find the porn, er. . . educational site you are looking for.

 

[sytaylor]

"wait for outlook to load"<-- what kind of processor you have, a 486?

 

[AlphaWolf]

"wait for outlook to load"<-- what kind of processor you have, a 486?

Depends on how you configure your OS, by default outlook's bloat is always wasting memory. Doing it the other way makes it take time to load.

 

[blizz]

weird how there's still a bunch of ppl who don't like IE coz it's MS..

right now.. the only browser that is most compatible is IE.. i don't see why ppl have to not use it coz it's MS.. so ridicules.. just messes up a whole bunch of websites for you.. also there's alot of things that only work on IE.. tiny details on websites that don't work on NS or MZ etc.. anyways.. if you want to be able to see momst of the websites online with most of their content intact.. i sudgest you use IE.. NS and MZ will get there someday i guess.. but they are allways behind.. i'm not an MS fanboy or anything like that.. but i don't understand why ppl hate MS eather.. it's just ridicules to me..

that would be because they make their websites for IE

 

[RatTrap]

that is a flawd view..

the real question is.. who are you supposed to make your websites for?.. you could go thru loads of polls but generally you will see that a sertain type of information on the site can change the balance between NS&MZ Vs IE users..

example: linux related websites.. here it's kinda stupid to put more work into the site than NS can see.. sure you might have some IE users too.. but there's no real use in it..

other sites: well.. in sites that you try to aim it at the whole comunity.. with lets say game information.. or an emulation website.. you can make the site for NS first.. then when your donne with the NS part.. you can continue adding things that are cool.. but that sadly won't work on NS.. why some ppl do this?.. it's because they preferably use IE and they like all the other preaty great features you can add to websites that work in both broswers.. only they might look purdyer in IE .. then someone steps in and says.. "you built this site for IE that's why".. and you can tell em.. "no.. i started out on NS and i finished it in NS too, but then i kept adding litle IE features i liked".. then they'll be like "lies!!!".. and you'll be like "/me no lie ".. anyways.. the site was firstly still made for NS..

i've used NS from the beginning.. when IE defenetly sucked.. we're talking first versions of IE and NS.. by version 3 of IE and NS.. IE was getting a few new features that NS didn't have.. but back then i used linux most of the time.. so i used to allways make websites/weird stuff in gimp.. and i must say i still love gimp.. but linux has terrible browsers.. konquerer is not compatible with a load of standards set by WC3 so K-desk is not for me.. NS wasn't on the ball really.. and it's not MS fault that NS can't keep up..

html, javascript, CSS standards and more are set by WC3.. not by MS.. they aren't the ones making up all the new standards as XHTML etc.. it's WC3.. wich is a big ass group of webdevelopers / designers etc etc..

what MS does is it tries to be up to date with WC3s newest standards.. and believe me there's still a bunch of standards IE still isn't compatible with.. but NS and MZ are still allways behind..

not only that..
NS up to 4.x versions has allways had alighnment errors.. try using <BR align="left"> on a complex table structure.. it'll end up way at the bottom.. and you'll have a big freaky "?" on your face that nobody will explain to you.. that is a big one.. but i can tell you about a whole bunch of small ones that could really mess up a site just coz it's 1 pixel badly aligned.. you think 1 pixel isn't much but if it's where 2 pictures meet and they need to be at the exact right spot each time.. then it sux if NS shows you a random 1 pixel wrong each time you resize the NSwindow now does it?..

there's alot of things that it just messes up.. tables are also buggy.. you can't have to many tables inside tabled in NS because however fast your computer is.. it'll eventually slow down.. NS6.x has other buggs.. with <layer>'s.. if they are reloaded to many times it might make you click the back button a few for each reload of that layer b4 you can go to the page you where in from the beginning..

this i'm not sure if it might be fixed in NS6.2 but if your using <layers> in earlier versions of NS 3.x-6.1 i think.. if your using <layers> wich is an NS only thing!.. (this is something added to their private html directions by NS themselfs.. it don't even work in IEs earlier versions).. if you have to many <layers>.. and <layers> inside <layers>.. in your code.. like you might need to make the hmmm.. lets say for example:
the apollo site.. and you have a main layer filled with information.. and you need to change the content on that layer on mouse click.. etc.. it'll spit out some weird alphanumeric text that looks kinda cool.. but is completly unreadable and not really the desired effect.. ask anyone who's worked with website development / design on NS b4.. they will tell you how NS can be a biatch to work on unless you know the workaround..

how NS has gotten away with it?.. massive massive scripting.. example.. to make your <layers> work the way that <iframes> in IE work.. since NS has no compatible or good solution other than putting scrollbars into a <layer> (wich would be like adding scrollbars to a <div> in IE).. you have to add a pretty big script.. that can slow your website down alot on slower machines.. and/or mess up the content on the <layer> it self.. unless you want to use IE iframes.. wich afaik don't work well in NS6 because of scripting.. Iframes are IE mostly only still.. coz you don't have the same features in NS unless you wanna do a workaround for it.. since javascript isn't the same in IE and NS..

i could go on and on and on and on.. i have so much on this.. you don't know how i feel when i use NS.. it's nostalgic to me.. i love NS.. coz it's where i started.. but honestly the winner of the 2 is IE.. it also has buggs.. but you have to admit that MS support is pretty quick at least on IE.. and when it comes to website development.. it offers much better online documentation.. try searching for a bugg report in NS-dev website.. it's hell..

btw.. don't even get me started on MZ..

heh.. i have friends that will probably never leave NS side.. that are constatly telling me that i should'nt make websites that even are compatible with IE.. but in the end.. they see my work.. and they say "how did you do that?".. i explain.. and then later.. when they can't get something to work while making there own websites they come to me.. and ask me how to do a sertain thing in NS.. all i can say is.. "sorry mate.. don't work in NS .. you'll have to script a workaround for it"..

 

[AlphaWolf]

Actualy mozilla only started development after the browser war was over, and because of the nature of the project (just anybody can submit bugfixes or new features and test them without even downloading the source), it will easily surpass IE in 2 years at its current rate (actualy probably much sooner, to me it already has). And speaking of, I've yet to see a webpage that doesn't work in the current build of mozilla. (BTW, mozilla does iframe)

Oh BTW, go have a look at BugZilla

 

[DuDe]

I use IE6. It`s nice looking, and I didn`t have a single problem with it yet.

 

[RatTrap]

alpha.. so your saying mozilla will surpass IE in 2 years.. i wonder how many ppl have said that about linux vs windows.. like i said.. i'm not an MS lover..

but still.. honestly.. if mr bill gates hadn't gonne thru with his litle dos etc.. (ok the 640k was a stroke of dumbassness).. if MS didn't exist.. we might be on the mercy of some other computer software giant.. imagine if Macs reignd supreme.. i'm sure as hell i would'nt be able to afford to buy me a Mac..

and if everyone who needed to use a computer needed to figure out how linux works.. there would be alot less ppl online contributing to what we today call the internet.. all i'm saying is ppl hate MS for some very stupid reasons..

Mozilla does have flaws..
read this next post with this log.. although it might get long.. i felt you might believe it better if you heard it from someone else other than me.. i went into #javascript to start a litle something that allways happends when you ask this question.. "wich browser should i support"..

 

[RatTrap]

in the beginning it starts with how a company works.. StormTide is telling me is giving me his answer thinking as a company would think.. companies that want to make a big website for themselfs would'nt support mozilla bcoz it's more costly.. as IE is cheaper.. and is more well proved to work just fine..

in the middle he answered the same way most ppl in this channel would've answered if they had been awake.. wich they rarelly are but when they are they can be very helpfull..

in the ending both him and herfig got pissed off at eachother coz well.. herfig is biased.. you could sat StormTide also is biased but honestly.. he knows what his talking about.. if you asked me and many others i would tell you the same thing..

***************************************
=== (join\#javascript) RatTrap[TNT@***.89.208.999] @[11:35:17pm]
<RatTrap> hello.. i need a little help with some mozilla questions..
<RatTrap> is it up to date compared to IE6?..
<rginda> RatTrap: what do you mean?
<RatTrap> up to date.. does it support most standards?.. is it buggy?.. i'm wondering coz i'm trying to be very objective in my chosing of webbrowser to support..
<StormTide> heh you dont really have a choice in what you support
<StormTide> either its got a meaningful market share or it doesnt
<RatTrap> hehe
<StormTide> it comes down to a numbers game
<StormTide> is it worth the cost of developing site x for browser y
<rginda> RatTrap: it has better standards support than ie6, in most respects
<RatTrap> how sure am i that your not biased`? .. i've been told it's buggy and don't support the latest standards fully..
<[Roosta]> RatTrap - from a business perspective it's more worthwhile to support NS4 than mozilla
<rginda> RatTrap: I probably am biased, do your own research
<RatTrap> Roosta.. why is that?..
<[Roosta]> RatTrap - cuz it holds a larger market share
<[Roosta]> personally i'd rather ignore anything pre version 6
<Jumper_> from a business perspective, NS4 is too costly to support
<StormTide> ns4 doesnt have a larger market share than the mozilla browsers
<StormTide> you just have to remember that there is like 10 of em or so now
<RatTrap> yeah.. but if your thinking about your surfers?.. the ppl that visit your website?..
<StormTide> so the stats get split
<StormTide> personally i support ie/dom
<StormTide> which doesnt include opera
<rginda> the sharp downdurn in ns4 corresponds to the mozilla 1.0 release
<[Roosta]> personally i don't think i care at the moment and i'ma go get some motherfuckin foooooood
<rginda> strangely enough, so does the sharp upturn in ie6 :/
<RatTrap> lol
<RatTrap> ok roosta.. tnx for your time ..
<RatTrap> anyone else has a view on they would like to share?..
<RatTrap> +this
<StormTide> its not something someone else can tell you
<StormTide> it depends on your product
<StormTide> it you sell activex controls for ie then you really dont need ns support
<RatTrap> true..
<RatTrap> but if i'm making a hmmm.. a website for gamers..
<StormTide> gamers use ie
<RatTrap> i guess i need to support most browsers..
<MonGuSE> anything below NS 6 is a pain in the ass to support
<RatTrap> i agree..
<StormTide> gamers use windows
<StormTide> and usually know somehwat what they are doing
<herfHig> just cause theyre on windows doesnt mean theyre using ie
<StormTide> thus gamers are more likely to use ie than anything else
<RatTrap> but i'm just wondering where you ppl would put the limit.. if you needed to make a website as compatible as it could get.. would you support opera or mozilla?..
<StormTide> herfHig seeing as you cant uninstall ie it does
<MonGuSE> well herf gamers normally use IE and have up to date IE's because they want the latest drivers and etc for their games
<herfHig> StormTide.. so? what does having it installed have to do with your choice of default browser?
<StormTide> everything
<herfHig> nothing
<herfHig> thtas horrible logic
<MonGuSE> why bother dling a POS when you have a perfectly fine browser already?
<MonGuSE> thats the logic
<StormTide> not only that but mozillla is slow
<StormTide> really slow
<herfHig> not everyone thinks ns is pos. obviously
<RatTrap> my guess is the ppl who live in the "i don't like MS coz they have to much money"..
<MonGuSE> only 6% or so
<RatTrap> are the only ones who would download NS, Opera or what not..
<MonGuSE> well you have the linux and mac people
<herfHig> thats idiotic RatTrap
<RatTrap> i agree..
<herfHig> theres nothign wrong with mozilla, it has better css support than ie, and it can block popups and has a tabbed interface
<RatTrap> but there's still so much ppl that think that way.. my guess is they are mostly kids..
<StormTide> linux and mac people arent gamers eesh
<herfHig> but people have no reason to dl it?
<herfHig> no, im saying what you said is idiotic RatTrap
<RatTrap> oh.. lol..
<StormTide> theres a reason why blizzard doesnt have linux ports
<RatTrap> ok..
<StormTide> or osx even
<StormTide> its just simply because its not profitable to bother
<StormTide> mozzila is slow.. opera's js is just stupid and ns6 is buggy as hell
<herfHig> mozilla isnt slow or buggy
<RatTrap> it might be idiotic.. but there's many ppl who think that way.. i know some.. some are even good friends of mine..it's stupid but that's how it is..
<StormTide> on windows ie is the clear choice for a fast nice working browser that will view everything
<RatTrap> i agree.. it's trully the best working browser out now.. i'm not saying it's allways going to be.. but why do ppl fight it so much.. it's stupid..
<herfHig> have you even tried using it?
<StormTide> rofl dude mozzilla is the slowest of all browsers.
<herfHig> go view pngs in ie StormTide
<MonGuSE> I'm not saying Linux or mac people play alot of games I'm just saying they're the reason for the 7% market share of Non-IE browsers
<herfHig> mozilla isnt slow. have you used it?
<StormTide> how many websites you know use png for their layout
<herfHig> you havent
<herfHig> so shh
<StormTide> herfHig mozilla IS slow and i have and i code for it regularly
<RatTrap> hehe.. png..
<StormTide> and if you knew crap about the bugs in it you'd know it is buggy as hell
<herfHig> png is a superior grfx format RatTrap. laughing at it says more about you than png
<RatTrap> you speak with some kind of hate hehe.. all i know is that png is old.. and isn't as good when it comes to quality vs filesize.. believe me i have a good eye for stuff like that.. and i love gimp more than anything.. but png isn't really for the internet just yet..
<StormTide> document.documentElement.clientHeight for example untill the most recent builds was the scroll height
<StormTide> its buggy buggy buggy
<RatTrap> lol.. yeah.. i had a blast trying to figure that one out i can tell you..
<StormTide> and its nested div updating is super super slow
<herfHig> im not having this argument, thanks
<StormTide> herfHig a technology is not measured by its merits ever... its about what becomes popular and why
<StormTide> gif/jpg are the standards
<StormTide> they're proprietary and are properly accessible to everyonej
<RatTrap> i agree Storm.. i've used all browsers.. i'm an ex IDG employe.. worked with all kinds of webdevelopment.. and mozilla at the time just wasn't good enugh.. now i've been out of the webdev busyness for a while when it comes to mozilla.. this is why i came in here to ask.. some ppl seem to think i'm biased.. but i know i'm not..
<StormTide> know the feeling
<herfHig> proprietary is a good thing?
<StormTide> till that changes its not a good format for web use
<StormTide> period
<RatTrap> png is very old..
<RatTrap> it's nothing new to me..
<herfHig> png is superior to jpg and gif RatTrap
<StormTide> and still not implimented.... why
<RatTrap> it's just not the thaang ..
<MonGuSE> herf depends on what your doing
<StormTide> because its "oss" which means its got no money behind it
<herfHig> its implemented in ns and opera, ie refuses to do it
<MonGuSE> bs
<MonGuSE> you have that backwards
<RatTrap> png isn't superior when it comes to photos..
<RatTrap> jpgs are..
<StormTide> pngs are huuuge when it comes to photos
<MonGuSE> Herf png works fine in IE but NS won't view it
<StormTide> jpeg is faaar superior
<RatTrap> yeah..
<StormTide> pngs dont work fine in ie
<RatTrap> it's why ppl still use gif and jpeg..
<MonGuSE> IE 6?
<StormTide> theres massive transparancy probs
<StormTide> yea ie 6
<herfHig> pngs have full alpha StormTide, that makes them better for many areas of web developmenty
<StormTide> herfHig no it doesnt...
<Kosher> will someone look at my syntax and tell me whats the matter?
<herfHig> yes, it does
<StormTide> you're living in the "its ideal" world and not the real freakin world
<StormTide> without ms support its not gonna work
<RatTrap> lol kosher.. sorry i think i've started something ..
<herfHig> StormTide, youre being a fucking moron. im saying that a full alpha channel is a good thing for web development
<StormTide> if you put an interface online that 90%+ of people cant see you're just a moron
<MonGuSE> kosher just ask the q.... Don't ask if you can ask
<StormTide> even if you think its "better"
<herfHig> im not arguing that IT SHOULD BE USED
<herfHig> pay attention
<StormTide> yes you are
<StormTide> you're saying its better for web development
<herfHig> youre having a completely different argument, with noone
<StormTide> and its simply not
<herfHig> ok, youre too dense to speak logically to, nevermind
<StormTide> heh buhbye =P
<herfHig> its not very difficult to understand the difference between a theoretical conversation and a pragmatic one but youre simply incapable of making the distinction
<RatTrap> hehe.. thanx ppl.. hope nobody got mad or anything now ..

(from here i was afraid to keep reading hehe..)

<StormTide> no you're oviously not
<StormTide> png is not better just because the format supports a few extra things
<Kosher> http://www.netdialect.com/tests/xmlhttp.htm
<StormTide> theres a shitload more to be taken into account
<StormTide> and a HUGE amount of that is implimented support
<herfHig> BETTER IN MANY SITUATIONS
<herfHig> MORON
<herfHig> im not making blank statements
<herfHig> blanket
<StormTide> for web development its not better in ANY situations cuz it cant be viewed by the general population
<herfHig> idiot
<herfHig> THEORETICAL CONVERSATION
=== (join\#javascript) Felixxx[[email protected]] @[11:58:27pm]
<StormTide> come back to the real world already
<Felixxx> anyone want to help me out. I want a little program for my website that i can see in real time where my users are on the site? is there anything like that?
<buzzy> how can I remove trailing spaces in a string? like.. var = trim(var) ?
<herfHig> you are a drooling idiot
<StormTide> your theory fails to involve the real world thus your theory is flawed
<herfHig> if you didnt have electricity and i told you electricity was good for powering lights, would you then tell me i was wrong because you didnt have electricity?
<herfHig> your logic is totally fucked
<StormTide> png doesnt have the money to buy its way into the mainstream and thus isnt a better format... as you claimed
<herfHig> if you didnt have electricity and i told you electricity was good for powering lights, would you then tell me i was wrong because you didnt have electricity?
<StormTide> thats not an equal statement
<Jolaco> at least the channel is lively now.
<herfHig> its exactly equal
<StormTide> you're comparing selling a lightbulb in the 1400's
<StormTide> NO ONE CAN USE IT
<herfHig> ie doesnt have pngs, i say pngs would be good for web development in many areas, and you tell me im wrong cause ie doesnt have pngs
<StormTide> so to a 1400's person a lightbulb for all its glory is useless
<herfHig> it makes no sense
<Kosher> anyone?

etc etc etc..
***************************************