So... what are we allowed to talk about these days?

[Stalkid64]

Honestly, I'm interested. Lately we've seen we're allowed no console/games/quality comparisons and debates, no gaming-related things that go slightly off topic, no discussion of future games or leaked demos, no political/DRM debates... or apparently any topic that hits over 4/5 pages. Anyone?

[Jesse]

stop whining.

[vampireuk]

The thread about the doom3 alpha was essentially bragging that you have a illegal version of something that is not even meant to be out yet. We dont want that here and we wont have it. When people can take part in a discussion about politics without having to insult each other then we shall have those back too. You can have a discussion about a future game but not a leaked alpha.

We have rules and they will be followed.

[Josep]

and we don't really want to draw unwanted attention to this board now do we?

thats what blizz said, i kinda agree with him;)

but what vampire said, um, how much did someone pay to get their own copy of doom3 the leaked version? um, nothing, is there even a retail price to it? no, some people have a leaked version of nemu 8.0, does that make it illegal? unless someone can find some legal mombo jumbo i don't see what its hurting, other than people's ethics...

i'm arguing about legalities, not what we can post on this board;)

[DuDe]

The fact that it doesn't have a price tag, doesn't make it warez friendly. If that alpha version of Doom3 was legal, id wouldn't have been bringing ftp's down all over the net.

[mesman00]

hey vamp, are you really a mod now?

[vampireuk]

Yup, I'm a mod now:)

[Stalkid64]

Funny, I asked the same question and it didn't go down too well. The is no "grey area" regarding emulation. It's illegal, full stop. Nintendo.com even have a page on their site stating their position on that. We "legalise" it to ourselves buy buying copies of the actual full game, but essentially it is illegal, and certainly more than the offending leaked demo. There's no loophole.

We can't "buy" the early copy of Doom 3 and after all, its a 6-month old, incomplete, buggy and hard to get demo - NOT a full version even. This is a 3 (incomplete) map DEMO.
id will lose zero money on it, get a huge chunk of free publicity (Not to mention coincidentally people will rush to upgrade their PC's before release - meaning more sales of the game - which will do manufacturers of GFX cards etc a lot of good), and apparently aren't the ones hitting sites after all. I could list around a half-dozen easy found sites which have it on their front page, free for all to see, freely asking for id to email them if they want it gone. So far, id haven't shown the slightest real concern to any of them and they've been around for a day or two at least. If the producers who are behind the game don't care (lets face it, they probably leaked it in the first place), why should we?
And incidentally, we weren't pointing the way for people to find it. Don't need to. We were talking FPS rates and config...
Legal is legal, illegal is illegal. The only difference with software is the harm it could cause. In the case of N64 ROM'z, we negate the harm by spending the money we do. In the case of an alpha-level demo, who gets harmed? Who loses money?
BUT - who gains potential sales and publicity for the final product, and in the end will profit from it?
I rest my case. Or something.

[vampireuk]

Someone in that thread pointed out a program to use to get hold of the alpha. It was decided that the thread was best removed, and the decision is final.

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by vampireuk
Someone in that thread pointed out a program to use to get hold of the alpha. It was decided that the thread was best removed, and the decision is final.

exactly. besides this alpha / demo (whatever) was NEVER meant to be available, no matter how it got leaked. now go figure, does that go thru your thick skull?

[Jaz]

To be honest guys, Stalkid64 is no newbie. He's probably been on or around EmuTalk for as long as, if not longer than most of us.

Give him a break.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for clamping down on the spam that has plagued ET over the last few weeks, but can we think a bit more before closing/moving threads.

This is a discussion board after all, and I think right now all of us Staff (and I'm including myself in this) are being a bit too `l33t` at the moment.

Anyway, my rant is over. :emutalk:

[mesman00]

Originally posted by vampireuk
Yup, I'm a mod now:)

cool, congrats dude

[blizz]

personally I blame vampireuk for nagging me in IRC

emulation itself is legal but the copyrighted material (ie ROMs) aren't

the "grey area" is that companies in the gaming industry could, if they wanted to, easily put pressure on the whole community, and they do tend to periodically, if you want a recent example of them complaining check out the post title rommel at Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/)


"My issue isn't that you had it at all, my issue is that you told everyone you had it. Piracy is a social problem and unless we all make it less attractive, it won't stop."

Zoid Kirsch from Retro Studios, that kind of shows how the industry feels towards emulation, they consider it as piracy no matter what the law may say, personally if it wasn't for ZSNES and the Super Metroid ROM, Metroid would be a more of a memory saved only by the retro columns in overrated "industry" mags like Edge, than a viable franchise, the same can be said of ID releasing the source to the original quake some impressive from that has happened (like it being ported to a DC)

personally it will be oh so interesting to see what happens when the X-Box gets emulated

let the gaming sites do what they want but emulation sites tread a fine enough line as it is already

and Jaz is playing good cop right now ;)

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by blizz
personally I blame vampireuk for nagging me in IRC


Time for hot potato, x2f4u objected to it first! :D

Well I'll put down my thrashing people cane now, I apologise if I have been a little bit strict to start out with :)

Just a bit erked at the way the forum was going and jumped at things too quickly to try and improve the situation.:)

[AlphaWolf]

You know, I do at times think some of these threads are closed a bit prematurely...but thats just me ???

[Stalkid64]

That was really my point. It seems like we're no longer allowed to do anything for fear of... reprisals? Nintendo has never bothered us in the past and god knows they could've at the height of things. Need I remind people of the "Request a ROM" board during the whole Majora's Mask phase? Or the site-wide vote on whether we should have it or axe it to take an "emulation - not piracy" stance? Which as I recall I and several others here were part of starting in the first place. ;)
I'm still not sure where I was boasting by asking what fps people were getting...
And AFAIK for the record... id has released no statement against the leaked alpha (there is an alleged but dodgy looking one though), nor has a single site hosting it been "shut down" by them, threatened with legal action, or contacted by them at all. The fact FTP's drop is down to huge amounts of people hammering them, nothing else. The community is what's getting that rumour going, not id.
Discussing the fact that something can be found in a p2p program isn't the same as posting a direct link either (though admittedly I slipped by mentioning the exact one I did, its still hardly a best-kept-secret). If we're getting that extreme, any time anyone mentions, say, kazaa in the same post as movies, mp3's etc, maybe that thread is best removed too. Then where does it stop?

As I said in the post above (in a slightly more context-filled version);


"Legal is legal, illegal is illegal (no "24 hour" clause, for example). The only difference with software is the harm it could cause (to the company who made it). In the case of N64 ROM'z, we negate the harm (that may be done) by spending the money we do and purchasing the game. In the case of an alpha-level demo, who gets harmed? Who loses money?
BUT - who gains potential sales and publicity for the (long from finished in that demo) final product, and who in the end will profit from it?"
The `possible vague threat of potential threat` should hardly be enough to end a debate. Otherwise not one of us would be on this board right now, playing our fine little emulators. And when was the last time Nintendo or anyone bothered us or did anything serious about that?


------------------------------------------This has been a "Stalkid64 post (t.m.)" May not be edited for length, clarity, and certainly not just because you're bored. Words are used to explain things and, y'know, he makes no apology for the fact. Amen.---------------------------------

[AlphaWolf]

speaking of the doom 3 demo, I would be surprised if ID software so much as gave a hair on a rats ass covered with mold. The demoware version of the game will probably have more levels than that.

[Josep]

Originally posted by Stalkid64

The `possible vague threat of potential threat` should hardly be enough to end a debate. Otherwise not one of us would be on this board right now, playing our fine little emulators. And when was the last time Nintendo or anyone bothered us or did anything serious about that?


------------------------------------------This has been a "Stalkid64 post (t.m.)" May not be edited for length, clarity, and certainly not just because you're bored. Words are used to explain things and, y'know, he makes no apology for the fact. Amen.---------------------------------

haha, stalkid does talk allot, but makes very good points!:) the whole nintendo thing, with nintendo droping this whole website and emulation like a bad habit, as i think i got that right;)

id wouldn't have been bringing ftp's down all over the net.

dude said that, but come on dude! how do you know that? i don't wanna rag on you, but have people said that id has took down there ftps and said "this is id taking down your ftp, bitch...;)" you know what i mean, seems a little far fetched;)

/me agrees with stalkid, although he writes allot;)

[crhylove]

i almost never agree with stalkid, just on principle, but i agree this time. if one part of a thread mentions some p2p program, that doesn't seem like a reason to close the thread... but i've been out for a couple days, so i never even saw the closed thread.

comparing cfg files and fps limits, though... well that should be allowed i think.

FYI it was ati who leaked the demo. and in related news ati is recording record sales because atm the 9700 is the best card out.

another example of dirty corporate crap all over again.

but id will still make a killing on this title, so i don't really see the point in any whining....

or closing threads, but i didn't even see it, so i don't know how blatently illegal it may have been..


rhy

[DuDe]

Originally posted by Josep
[B]
dude said that, but come on dude! how do you know that? i don't wanna rag on you, but have people said that id has took down there ftps and said "this is id taking down your ftp, bitch...;)"B]
It wasn't me who said that in the first place, it was mentioned before by a mod around here (fuck if I remember who it was), and since I guessed that he knew what he was talking about, I repeated it here. Wrong? Oh well, shit happens.
All of that still doesn't detract from the fact that this alpha wasn't supposed to be released. Stalkid here wanted to bitch a bit about one of his threads being closed, so he bloated the whole thing out of proportion, and that pretty much summarizes it all.

[vampireuk]

I agree with dude, the fact is it should not have been released. My decision to say "yeah just get rid of that thread" may have been a bit harsh but I made a decision. I have admitted a slight mistake so why constantly rag on us about it? Stalkid just let it go;) :)

[blizz]

if anyone has any right to ask questions over this it's Martin and other the other moderators, no one else

and lets be clear on this Doom3 is still piracy and you were advocating piracy and giving directions on how to obtain pirated software

deleting the thread was indeed overkill, but it did shut vampireuk and x2f4u up :devil:

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by blizz

deleting the thread was indeed overkill, but it did shut vampireuk and x2f4u up :devil:

You should know by now that nothing shuts us up;) :D

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by crhylove
[B]i almost never agree with stalkid, just on principle, but i agree this time. if one part of a thread mentions some p2p program, that doesn't seem like a reason to close the thread... but i've been out for a couple days, so i never even saw the closed thread.
That was literally as far as it went, joking aside.


comparing cfg files and fps limits, though... well that should be allowed i think.
As anyone who read the initial post would see (and as the thread was going) that was the intention of the thread, hence closure of it was slightly bizarre. In what way is that any different to, say, someone discussing the best emu config for Zelda, Mario etc? At all? They aren't meant to be available and are illegal in this form after all.


FYI it was ati who leaked the demo. and in related news ati is recording record sales because atm the 9700 is the best card out.

The alleged statement has been doing the rounds on IRC, yes, but as a supposed chat log I'd treat it with caution. From what I hear it's been around a lot longer privately than we thought. Oh, and people who have done direct comparisons on how the game runs have apparently been favouring the GF4, and the leak if it was ATI will damage their relationship quite a bit...


but id will still make a killing on this title, so i don't really see the point in any whining....
or closing threads, but i didn't even see it, so i don't know how blatently illegal it may have been..

That was my point exactly. The most illegal it got was mention of a p2p program, which I already admitted was a slip, and apparently this is me advocating piracy and boasting about ownership of illegal goods. Go figure... ???

[blizz]

Originally posted by vampireuk
You should know by now that nothing shuts us up;) :D

lol, it's only funny because it's true ;)

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by blizz
lol, it's only funny because it's true ;)

heh, ill take the blame for the thread if it makes u happy ;) however i didnt ask u to delete it.

[Josep]

Originally posted by DuDe
It wasn't me who said that in the first place, it was mentioned before by a mod around here (fuck if I remember who it was), and since I guessed that he knew what he was talking about, I repeated it here. Wrong? Oh well, shit happens.
All of that still doesn't detract from the fact that this alpha wasn't supposed to be released. Stalkid here wanted to bitch a bit about one of his threads being closed, so he bloated the whole thing out of proportion, and that pretty much summarizes it all.

well then make it clear dork so i won't rip on your for no good reasons;)

In what way is that any different to, say, someone discussing the best emu config for Zelda, Mario etc? At all? They aren't meant to be available and are illegal in this form after all.

that is illegal? wow, i've seen newbies ask it all the time, and i can point out many threads that aren't locked that ask those questions...bottom line is some mods need to stop locking so fast, in my humble opinion;) that way there isn't a flame thread like this with someone mad because they got their thread locked, thats happened to me i don't know how many times;)

[DuDe]

Originally posted by Josep

bottom line is some mods need to stop locking so fast, in my humble opinion;) that way there isn't a flame thread like this with someone mad because they got their thread locked, thats happened to me i don't know how many times;)

If a person's thread was locked, he should ask himself where exactly did he go wrong, instead of whining about it. If anyone has a problem with one of his threads locked/deleted, then he should talk to the mod that locked his thread, instead of bitching around and blaming the staff, because frankly, that all just sounds like a personal problem.

[Eagle]

I wondering why this thread hasnt been locked.

[bodie]

yep agreed
........................................ ..closed................................ ...........
for lunch

[DuDe]

Hey, at least I'm not the one to blame for this one :D
/me points at bodie :)

[Martin]

Hmm...one question. What was wrong about this thread and why was it locked?

[Jaz]

Originally posted by Martin
Hmm...one question. What was wrong about this thread and why was it locked?

I can ask the same thing. :P

You see, as soon as an interesting debate gets started, someone decides to shut it.

It's no wonder why people are losing interest in ET, to be honest.

Can I re-open this then?

[vampireuk]

lol, it wasnt me :P

[bodie]

actually jaz i gave numerous reasons to martin in a pm and he obviously agreed with them judging by his reply ..and if i had to correct everyone of your mistakes it would eat up too much of my precious time .. Give me a reason why you opened up a flaming thread to say let the wars commence or something to that effect .. exactly! and if you want to discuss this in PM's then feel free

[Stalkid64]

Er... I *did* ask why the thread of mine was closed but the answer wasn't exactly clear and seemed pretty debatable which is why I brought it up. I wasn't and am not in the slightest bit angry, just very confused by why it happened. This is a fairly worthy public debate matter for a site such as this when you start throwing legailty into it.

You say its illegal, that we were boasting about the ownership of illegal software - well, where exactly, when we were just happily discussing best config files and fps rates? Because we mentioned p2p software? People already know about that...

Truly if you want to question the legality of a thread like that, better question the more plentiful supply of "how can I get (game-x) running better on (emulator-x)?" threads as well. After all, aren't they encouraging people to get the highly illegal full-game ROMs working better? Isn't supporting ROM use in such a way virtually identical to what we were doing with a small, buggy, out of date demo? ROM piracy of FULL GAMES would do more harm than tweaking that little DEMO ever would. Emphasis on the important words there...
Another little fun fact for you. On an average day, getting an N64 rom used to take me on average 2/3 hours with a crappy modem. That's a full, available commercial game remember - say a 40 hour epic like Zelda.
Right now, without broadband, getting DOOM 3 is taking around 36 hours. Which is more encouraging for piracy? 3 hours for a full commercial game of Zelda quality, or a day and a half for an alpha stage demo which in all probability won't run very well for you?
If anyone wants to continue the legality debate here in the fairly intelligent manner we're probably all capable of, feel free.
I personally find it very interesting that a 3-level early demo is being seen as if it were more illegal than piracy of full games. ???

And if anyone regards them as being the same sort of thing legal-wise, please answer the original question and tell us what we're allowed to talk about now, as that puts ROM's out of the question too as they must be equally illegal. IMHO, talking about something like this is no more likely to influence piracy, than playing a violent game is to make you want to go out and blow things up with a shotgun. People are gonna do what they want, and talking about it as we were after the fact affects no-one.

And incidentally, thanks to Martin and Jaz for allowing this thread to continue btw. Nice to see two high-class people finally recognising what's *really* been going on around here lately, and I have great respect for you both for that. :)

EDIT: Gee, long post even by my standards.:cry:

[vampireuk]

would you like me to apologise again? Or would you prefer it in hand draughted form, framed and also signed?

[Sukh]

Hand draughted form, framed and signed please. kthx.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by bodie
Give me a reason why you opened up a flaming thread to say let the wars commence or something to that effect

Yes, you're right. I must of forgot we switched the words discussion and flaming again.

Oh, and debate and wars.

[bodie]

no you are right .. and i would prove you right but the main thread in question seems to have been deleted ..strange for a closed thread .. oh well :p
regards the subtle one

[blizz]

I personally find it very interesting that a 3-level early demo is being seen as if it were more illegal than piracy of full games

how can it be more illegal than a piracy of a full game when they're both the same crime! and that's the reason why!

You don't get it do you, that thread was getting out of control, I did it because that thread was too ambiguous at the moment, we walk a fine enough line with ROMs as it is, but the thread was treating Doom3 as though it was a legal PD ROM or freeware even, there is a fine line between what is and isn't allowed and I judged it to be over that line

If you don't like that, fine, but don't get all "l33t h@x0r" on me when you blatantly have worked or do currently work in the games industry! How would you feel if that was a game you worked on? A technology you worked hard to develop as a secret for the future profits and stability of your job?

edit:

you can argue that Doom3 is secure enough in that's it's far into it's development cycle, but I can assure you that there are dev teams out there, working on any platform who will have taken a look at that alpha and learned a few lessons from it, and undoubtedly taken some ideas down

[Eagle]

Well, I think you were right actualy. If it is not a public beta, and you got it through some means other than directly from the manufacturer. It is illegal. Basically if its creators had not inteded for it to be spread over the internet then it is illegal. The only way it would be legal is they posted it for download on a website. So I agree with Blizz's decision.

[Stalkid64]

So if there is no difference in legailty, and you agree ROM's are the same thing... how can we freely discuss ROM's as if they were public domain?

[vampireuk]

You don't get it do you, that thread was getting out of control, I did it because that thread was too ambiguous at the moment, we walk a fine enough line with ROMs as it is, but the thread was treating Doom3 as though it was a legal PD ROM or freeware even, there is a fine line between what is and isn't allowed and I judged it to be over that line

I think that sums it up stalkid

[TigerTron]

Originally posted by blizz
how can it be more illegal than a piracy of a full game when they're both the same crime! and that's the reason why!

You don't get it do you, that thread was getting out of control, I did it because that thread was too ambiguous at the moment, we walk a fine enough line with ROMs as it is, but the thread was treating Doom3 as though it was a legal PD ROM or freeware even, there is a fine line between what is and isn't allowed and I judged it to be over that line

If you don't like that, fine, but don't get all "l33t h@x0r" on me when you blatantly have worked or do currently work in the games industry! How would you feel if that was a game you worked on? A technology you worked hard to develop as a secret for the future profits and stability of your job?

edit:

you can argue that Doom3 is secure enough in that's it's far into it's development cycle, but I can assure you that there are dev teams out there, working on any platform who will have taken a look at that alpha and learned a few lessons from it, and undoubtedly taken some ideas down

First, i did not manage to see this "scandalous" thread That this refers to.

But i have to say that as i know RatTrap has helpd out with alot of gaming sites and has helpd web-developers working in game-development houses before. He actually has a few good friends in a few well known companies that have visited him in Sweden.

I know this because i am very interested in that market. It can open many doors for us since we web-developers and -designers are in hardship because of the few jobs here. J and i have been on the way a few times, to start our own game-related website. He has wanted to make it game only and not include any type or form of emulation. But he says he has made some good friends here, and we are looking into a way of maybe being able to live out of both this and the gaming comunity.

(I am sorry, i think i got a bit off the topic)

He has told me alot about this kind of thing. He has said that the people who emulate a system are seen and sometimes hated just as much as the people who download a game for the PC. Because there is no diference. Downloading a PC game and running it on your computer is abit more wrong maybe? (same thing, i think), but that does not mean that when downloading a rom less wrong.

So if you are going to be fair, you have to be fair so all over the place. Then you will have to stop talking about how to get a game working all together. Both rom and PC-Game. The thing i think is wrong, is if someone was directing someone to a URL directly to the "demo". That would be the same as your rule about Rom-linking.

[Stalkid64]

Which as far as I know, never happened. If mentioning a p2p program counts, then we really are in a sorry state of affairs... you mention anything and someone can find it on a google search these days anyway.
I think you're about the 2nd person in this thread who has realised what I actually meant though. Good for you.
Now then; Would I personally care if a game I was linked to was leaked this early on, at alpha stage? No. Yet yes, I know where the money goes for real. I know the time and effort it takes firsthand. I also know though what a huge difference the months that have followed since that demo build (which according to Carmack's statement was never meant to be leaked or even interactive...)will have already made to the final game. At the level that demo was at, the engine was still being built, and there was a massive way to go. As anyone who has seen and tried it will attest, it's literally hanging together with sticky-taped code. If all the features were in at that stage, damn would it be a disappointment. If this was a "feature complete" version, yes I would object slightly, only on the grounds that ideas could be borrowed. It'll ruin nothing by being out there, and especially not simple fps-rate discussions.

[Smiff]

Originally posted by TigerTron

So if you are going to be fair, you have to be fair so all over the place. Then you will have to stop talking about how to get a game working all together. Both rom and PC-Game. The thing i think is wrong, is if someone was directing someone to a URL directly to the "demo". That would be the same as your rule about Rom-linking.


I haven't read the whole thread, so i might be misfiring here, but I thought the EmuTalk rules were about protecting EmuTalk from legal action, and keeping it on topic, not about the moralities of the activities of EmuTalk's users (?) For example, I don't want people posting links to ROMs in the Project64 forum because ROMs don't specificaly relate to Project64. Martin doesn't want those links in the General N64 emulation forum - that might be because he thinks that could get his shut down by Nintendo's laywers, or because he doesn't want a warez site. Both reasonable but different reasons, I think.

What i do want clarified is how closely you can link to material. Take the following categories, each getting less obviously "bad":

1) direct download web link
2) link to webpage with direct downloads
3) link to page that links to a page with downloads
4) name of a P2P app
5) general reference to "P2P apps"
6) reference to a search engine (?)
7) something even more vague, maybe filename/existence of the ROM

then you have grey areas, for example an ed2k link, an md5 hash,... I don't know where to put these.

It's up to the people who own the site to decide where they want to draw the line there. I think it's simple and best to say "any discussion about where to get warez is not allowed" including e.g. directing people to search engines and apps, because by doing that you are giving tacit approval (=bad) BUT i would (this is not my site, so don't take this as the real rules) allow (1) discussion of material that may or may not be warezed, with the presumption of innocence and (2) discussion of P2P apps - IN THE CORRECT FORUMS! - because both on their own are fine - it's linking the material with the method of distribution that's going to get people into trouble. And yes, this is very hard to moderate.

I'll give some examples:

"You can get Doom3 using Kazaa" (true, but does anyone really need to be told this?)
"Doom3 has been leaked. BTW, did you know Kazaa is a good P2P app?" (both pieces of information fine on their own. What about together? Technically moot, this post could never happen on EmuTalk because the first sentence would be in a post in Talk of the Town and the second in TechTalk).

Maybe all that really needs to be enforced is that people stay on topic?

[Josep]

well if smiff is right, then its ok to start another thread;) technically, but someone has to lay down the rules somewheres

[crhylove]

i don't know, the forums need moderating, but there has been an overflow of low brow n00b beating and thread closing lately that have lowered our standard of surfing significantly. i never know anyone who acts cool around cops, and some of the mods have come across as copish lately (not saying i could do better, i probly couldn't), but i think that is part of the reason for some of the negativity over all lately.

including long timers that were cool ducking out altogether.

everyone needs to take a deep breath, and maybe smoke a doob with
<-------- uncle crhylove

[Macca]

doom 3....hmmm....i wonder how many people are in the following situation

www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20021104l.gif

PA Rocks :P
www.penny-arcade.com

[DuDe]

Originally posted by Stalkid64
/intense sarcasm mode
Hey, mods! He mentioned Doom 3! Quick, get him too! Promoting warez! Blatant advertising!
/end intense sarcasm mode
Or any of the other made-up garbage I've just found in my "warnings" list. Yes, for anyone who wants to know, I'm just gonna mention that apparently I'm a 10-point worthy racist for example despite the fact I tolerate every viewpoint and race and religion (again some people need to look up Wicca I think...), but only a 2-point worthy spammer. And despite only EVER having sent PM's to Martin and Jaz who never seem to mind, I warrant a 5-point PM abuse rating. Bizarre huh? Oh and I've not just been requesting Warez but ROM's too, apparently... those must be the invisible posts I make, right?
Frankly if you guys are gonna start on me as you so obviously want to for some reason, please at least stick to the truth. There are so many blatant lies in that warnings list I have to question decisions being made even more now. At the very least I want an apology over that "racist" remark. That's where most of the anger in this post comes from, as that is just completely fabricated and far from my nature.

Don't be stupid, you haven't even been warned through the warnings system yet. What you saw is merely a list of possible warnings.

EDIT : oh come on, at least have the guts to admit that you were wrong, rather than just deleting your post. You're quoted you know.

[Macca]

lol, calm down............you racist :P j/k

[Trotterwatch]

Don't be stupid, you haven't even been warned yet through the warnings system . What you saw is merely a list of possible warnings.

I bet he isn't the only one who has made that mistake.

[DuDe]

Well, he's the only one who is blaming us for "going after him", isn't he?

[Macca]

yeh, we've got a few posts from people thinking something was up, but really we just hate you all and are going to ban everyone :)

[blizz]

Originally posted by Macca
yeh, we've got a few posts from people thinking something was up, but really we just hate you all and are going to ban everyone :)

you're not supposed to tell them that ;)

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by TigerTron

So if you are going to be fair, you have to be fair so all over the place. Then you will have to stop talking about how to get a game working all together. Both rom and PC-Game. The thing i think is wrong, is if someone was directing someone to a URL directly to the "demo". That would be the same as your rule about Rom-linking.

exactly, this is about an attitude used in a post.. Jaz summed it up when he said the word debate is referenced as a flame war.. and instead of spending the whole time telling stallkid he was wrong how about accepting some blame here.. 6 months ago this would not hav caused an issue.. hell i've seen martin post direct connect hubs thats how much he cares about legality! can we at least act like adults around here?

"he said something in a nasty tone, he's so wrong, im going to close his thread" is the message being set out and to be honest its painful, more mods with a twitchy close finger doesn't solve anything... martin giving them all a spanking does, thank god he's back, he's basically kept the peace here for so long its scary how much of an impact his absence made :plain2:

[Stalkid64]

I deleted the post this morning in recognition that it was a mistake, and simply hadn't the time to edit it before work. Fair enough - misunderstanding, mistake, I'm human and as far as I'm concerned its forgotten. Obviously I'm not the only one who was momentarily confused by the appearance of the "view warnings" tag when I logged in, what with it being right up with PM's and all... but its still obvious why it has appeared.
DuDe - it was a mistake. My bad, but you can hardly blame the assumption going on how I'm being treated lately. Anyway, done and over as far as I'm concerned.
sytaylor - I *did* accept the fact that I shouldn't perhaps have mentioned rather obvious p2p software several times in this thread, but that's hardly telling people anything they don't know already. Even vamp` admitted he was perhaps overly hasty in closing the thread, which I respect him greatly for saying. You're right though where you say if this had come up six months or so ago in the context of the thread (indeed the title itself gave the context as something like "Doom 3 alpha discussion for those who have it.") it wouldn't have been given a second thought. We'd all have jumped on the thread and talked about it, as we used to back in the fun days when a new ROM suddenly appeared playable.

And for the most part for those who never saw it, it was simple fps/config/tech spec discussion by people who ALREADY HAD IT... people interested and curious about it enough to have gone out and tracked it down, nothing promoting piracy or boasting of ownership as it seems to have been twisted to - indeed how do you boast about ownership when the thread was intended by its very title for people who also have it? I believe in letting people decide for themselves what they do with information, and the leak was hardly a sudden revelation on my part - heck, even slashdot and penny arcade have used the news. Why should we be any different? It's a talking point, and one I find interesting to debate as there are so many sides to it.
The reaction was out of proportion to what was going on in the thread, simple as that. This thread has had its value already in that people are talking again more than they have for a long while about what's going on around here. Personally I'm finding it interesting, especially now I remember the direct-connect hubs/Martin aspect.
I still don't think its any more wrong to discuss how to get Doom 3 alpha demo running better or what frame rate someone gets on what equipment, than to have the same discussions or sharing tips for how to get certain ROM's running better on emulators, or what fps rate you get in Majora's Mask. I'd have great value on Martin's own opinion of that seeing as how he owns the site, as in the light the thread was started and running, it was discussion pure and simple and FUN... without the admitted (but only small) errors of p2p reference, I didn't think he'd have a problem with it or I wouldn't have started it in the first place, and I don't see why the mods should either if thats the case.
Finally, to sytaylors remarks again - yes, it is amazing how messed up things get if Martin disappears for a while. It happens every time, too. The site used to go very strongly on staff/member interaction which seems to have taken a back seat recently. Even the "Great Flame War" had its purpose and was allowed to run. Member interaction was greatly entertaining and reason alone to visit, as it should be... even the surreal world of "the GBA Bar" survived unhindered even though it was a complete waste of our time. It let us talk, figure out how various members thought, let friendships form. That was what made it so enjoyable. That's what I'd love to see back. And its something even this thread is doing.
Discussion remains open here, feel free to debate. Already I'm looking forward to reading responses again, something which hasn't happened in a long time.

[Trotterwatch]

Steps are currently being taken to improve the board, for a short time it had descended into nothing more than meaningless spam, and ever increasing flame wars. Of course some of us moderators have acted a little hastily at times, and have perhaps closed threads a little prematurely. I don't think anyone of us would disagree with that at all.

We are all human though, and errors are always going to be made. The benefit we have though, is in hindsight. The same mistakes will hopefully only happen once or twice, before the lesson taught by those mistakes is absorbed fully.

I had read 95% of the thread that started this debate, and considered it to be fairly harmless, however at one point there was a hint that anyone who knew where the leaked demo was available should PM you, and others who wanted to know where it was. Closing the thread was a mistake, but that was all it was, a slight but understandable nonetheless overeaction. If someone had hinted about being PMed about the whereabouts of a ROM, this behaviour would also have been stamped upon.

I understand that later on in said thread, you were not discussing how to obtain the demo. This is mainly where your grievence is centered, and I do understand that, but I also understand how the moderators felt it was a grey area.

Anyways, stick with us Stalkid - your opinions are valued, and appreciated. I am pleased with the way this thread has been going up until now, it has provoked much debate - all of it good, I am happy to note. :)

[DuDe]

Originally posted by Stalkid64

DuDe - it was a mistake. My bad, but you can hardly blame the assumption going on how I'm being treated lately.

Oh for god sakes, just cut it out, the "treatment" that you've received wasn't anyhow different than the "treatment" that other users receive. You know, let's change that : you've been treated better than most of the users around here, since your case has spawned three threads - yes, three threads, I doubt any other user was ever given that much chance to talk crap about the mods and their policies around here as much as you did.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by Trotterwatch
Anyways, stick with us Stalkid - your opinions are valued, and appreciated.

Totally agree with you on that one. There are alot of people who I wouldn't miss if they left this board (and I'm sure I'm on many peoples lists), but Stalkid64 is one genuine guy who knows his shit. And knows whats what around here. I'm not saying that I agree with everything he's been saying, but I still think some of us are treating him as if we know everything and he knows shit. Agian, just a personal opinion.

In my eyes, as far as staff are concerned, I think we need to really lose the them and us attitude. Or sooner rather than later, this entire board will be made up of simply staff members.

On a more positive note: I have noticed that things have improved big time over the last week, so that's cool! :cool:

[Trotterwatch]

In my eyes, as far as staff are concerned, I think we need to really lose the them and us attitude. Or sooner rather than later, this entire board will be made up of simply staff members.

Totally agree with you on that, I think in my last post I over empthasised the 'we' as with regards to moderators. Of course, we are all users first and foremost, and along with other users want this board to reach the heights that it once did.

I am optimistic that things are going to get better now :) I've already noticed it with this thread actually, some decent discussion going on without any real flaming.

[AlphaWolf]

hmm...how about this, when a thread gets closed, it is automaticaly duplicated to the way off topic forum as opened.

either that or another forum where threads get deleted after X number of days.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by Trotterwatch
I think in my last post I over empthasised the 'we' as with regards to moderators.

Wasn't referring to you at all, didn't even pick up on that in that post. :)

Unfortunatly many people take their Staff status as a very big power trip.

[Trotterwatch]

hmm...how about this, when a thread gets closed, it is automaticaly duplicated to the way off topic forum as opened.


A good idea, but for certain threads this wouldn't work - ie Rom requests etc

The capability to move threads to other forums, is as you will know already present, and as such that is an option. Or perhaps any contentious threads (with legal implications, maybe) could be moved by one of the moderators into a holding forum, where it could be discussed amongst staff as to if it can be allowed to continue.

Discussion could also be opened up to aggrieved users via PM, or some other means - of course this all sounds like a lot of work, but it would only be rarely that this problem would occur. This process would most likely solve issues satisfactorily to all concerned as well.


btw
Unfortunatly many people take their Staff status as a very big power trip.

:) not me :) hehe

[Smiff]

Originally posted by Jaz
Wasn't referring to you at all, didn't even pick up on that in that post. :)

Unfortunatly many people take their Staff status as a very big power trip.

then they shouldn't be on the staff. however, this is not open to public debate, it's up to Martin etc. to pick his staff.

[blizz]

Originally posted by Jaz
In my eyes, as far as staff are concerned, I think we need to really lose the them and us attitude. Or sooner rather than later, this entire board will be made up of simply staff members.

nyo?

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by Trotterwatch
A good idea, but for certain threads this wouldn't work - ie Rom requests etc

The capability to move threads to other forums, is as you will know already present, and as such that is an option. Or perhaps any contentious threads (with legal implications, maybe) could be moved by one of the moderators into a holding forum, where it could be discussed amongst staff as to if it can be allowed to continue.


Just by default copy, not move, to way off topic, only move to a staff only holding forum if it poses potential legal backlash, where it will be decided if it is to be moved back to a public forum.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by Smiff
however, this is not open to public debate

There's nothing to debate.

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by Jaz
Wasn't referring to you at all, didn't even pick up on that in that post. :)

Unfortunatly many people take their Staff status as a very big power trip.

If you look at the efnet ircop code of conduct, it says that they should act as if they hold no power at all over other users, unless a clear violation of the rules has been made. Which basicaly means don't kick somebody off of the server just because they said the chicken came before the egg, or they happen to think your favorite band sucks. Their only purpose is to protect the network, not to play god.

I always thought that was a good rule of thumb, and I think it would probably solve the issues at hand if a similar "moderator code of conduct" was established here. ???

[Smiff]

Originally posted by Jaz
There's nothing to debate.

no i'm not saying there is, what i am saying is that there's a bottom like, which is: if you don't agree with the way the owners run the forum (which includes choice of staff), and have persistant issues with it, ultimately you need to go somewhere else. This is just common sense, not a hint for anyone to leave.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by Smiff
no i'm not saying there is, what i am saying is that there's a bottom like, which is: if you don't agree with the way the owners run the forum (which includes choice of staff), and have persistant issues with it, ultimately you need to go somewhere else. This is just common sense, not a hint for anyone to leave.

How can you say that just if a member dosen't agree with many opinions of a staff member that they should go somewhere else? Hell, we may as well list all our opinions on the Terms & Conditions page to save them the hassle of actually registering in the first place.

[Smiff]

If the staff are carrying out the wishes of the site owner, and someone doesn't agree with the staff, then yes, they should go somewhere else. You can't have it both ways. The point is to not use the opinions of the staff, but a set of rules that everyone knows (which is what we're working on atm, i think). I'm not talking about someone making a single mistake, but someone who might be persistantly pissed off with one or more staff on a personal level.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by Smiff
If the staff are carrying out the wishes of the site owner, and someone doesn't agree with the staff, then yes, they should go somewhere else. You can't have it both ways.

K, my bad, I totally misinterpreted your post. :blush:

[crhylove]

woah... i never saw that efnet ircop thing alpha, i've seen that policy broken >5x in #emulation64, and i don't even troll there that much.....

rhy

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by crhylove
woah... i never saw that efnet ircop thing alpha, i've seen that policy broken >5x in #emulation64, and i don't even troll there that much.....

rhy

your thinking of a channel op

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by sytaylor
"he said something in a nasty tone, he's so wrong, im going to close his thread" is the message being set out and to be honest its painful, more mods with a twitchy close finger doesn't solve anything...

I dont remember any threads been closed because he said something in a "nasty tone". And we have already gone through everything about mods making mistakes. There is no point in flogging a dead horse over it.

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by vampireuk
I dont remember any threads been closed because he said something in a "nasty tone". And we have already gone through everything about mods making mistakes. There is no point in flogging a dead horse over it.

I have seen it a few times myself, but reguardless I don't think he means just that in particular, just threads being closed when theres hardly any reason to close them, other than maybe somebody just simply doesn't like the thread.

[vampireuk]

Well like we have said we will be trimming the spam and bs from the threads now. A nice example look at the os poll thread. Nice work by me there:D

[AlphaWolf]

I don't think thats realy the best idea either. Namely, what you consider spam might not be considered spam by others. I could see doing that in a sticky thread, where each post is supposed to contain very relavent/to the point information, but not a normal one.

EDIT:

meh, I'll just end the comments here.

[Tri-Force]

all right, time for me to catch up.

Stalkid, you are right. if it was a demo that was leaked then its fine because the demo would not have turned profits anyway right. just look at how long the thread about the leaked UltraHLE went on. sure there were debates about the ethics of continuing the project without word from the authors but now all is fine and candy and here comes Ultra 2.0

also, I understand about not wanting companys to come down and shut us down. but when it's free it's free right? even if it wasn't ment to be released (like the Uhle source) it wouldn't have made a profit anyway so as long as you're not saying it's something that you yourself made (that just HAPPENS to look like doom) then no problem.

moving on.

my favoriate thread in this board was the discusion about religion. yah it got heated, and yah people flamed, and yah people got down right rude and insuleted eachother and people (myself and 2Fast4U) wanted to hit someone but it was REAL.

disagreements are a part of ANY board and debates go along with disagrements. and it makes for a pretty boring board if everyone has the same opinion and agrees all the time. I think we should have a seperate section of the board for Polls and Debates. that way, all the emulator boards are kept clean and the gaming and tech talk sections aren't filled with crap like "x-box or game cube" and "ati or Nvidia" that way we aren't living in 1984 where the thought police kill us for having an opinion (someone PLEASE tell me how to spell that word) and people with opinions (there it is again) are allowed to voice them.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by Tri-Force
Stalkid, you are right. if it was a demo that was leaked then its fine because the demo would not have turned profits anyway right.

Yeah, but it's still technically illegal to own a copy of the demo, as far as I know. However, I don't see any wrong doing in discussing this demo, even if it does include persons saying that they've played or own a copy. I mean, at the end of the day, id software will do nothing but benefit from people playing the demo, so what's the problem?

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
I don't think thats realy the best idea either. Namely, what you consider spam might not be considered spam by others. I could see doing that in a sticky thread, where each post is supposed to contain very relavent/to the point information, but not a normal one.


Well in a topic about operating systems, anything that has nothing to do with operating systems in spam;) :D

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by Jaz
Yeah, but it's still technically illegal to own a copy of the demo, as far as I know. However, I don't see any wrong doing in discussing this demo, even if it does include persons saying that they've played or own a copy. I mean, at the end of the day, id software will do nothing but benefit from people playing the demo, so what's the problem?

the point stays .. if id wanted people to have the demo, they would have put it up on their own. hell, they didnt choose to and not suprisingly it was leaked. end of story.

[Slougi]

Originally posted by Jaz
I mean, at the end of the day, id software will do nothing but benefit from people playing the demo, so what's the problem?
That is actually not true, since this is an un-optimized alpha. People will think the retail copy won't run well on their pc, and thus not buy it. Did you not see John Carmack's post on /.?

[blizz]

Originally posted by Slougi
That is actually not true, since this is an un-optimized alpha. People will think the retail copy won't run well on their pc, and thus not buy it. Did you not see John Carmack's post on /.?

he isn't going to know what /. means ;)

[Slougi]

Originally posted by blizz
he isn't going to know what /. means ;)
Good point.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=44077&cid=4591655

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by Slougi
That is actually not true, since this is an un-optimized alpha. People will think the retail copy won't run well on their pc, and thus not buy it.
Ah... you mean as happened with the original Doom? Oh, no, wait... people upgraded to play it. So you mean as with Doom 2... wait, no, again people upgraded to play that as well so you must mean Quake... no, wait, Quake 2. Oh of course! Quake 3 Ar...NO! Damn, people went and upgraded IN DROVES to play that too.
You see where I'm going with this? ;)

Incidentally if any mod wants to own up to knowing what happened to my last post in this thread (funnily enough it was just before vampireuk's 2nd-last post this morning...), feel free to do so. The post completed fine as I checked and was going to reword it when I saw it appear, but work had to be gone to so I left it... very strange.

[Jaz]

IMO, I don't see any problem in a thread to discuss the Doom 3 Alpha demo, and playing the demo itself. After all, it's not like we don't discuss playing certain games on emulators. A prime example is the Metroid one in the GBA forum. If anyone who has posted in that forum, saying that they have played the game, actually owns it, then they are (9 times out of 10), a lier.

So long as there is no information or hints regarding where to download such files, I don't see any problem whatsoever discussing any such Alpha versions.

[Stalkid64]

I think that's what I've been saying... if we can discuss ROM's in that sort of context, which are as illegal as the alpha and actually more likely to invite trouble, why can we discuss one and not the other? I see the rather standout amendment to the gaming forum rules... why single it out? People know of its existence and are 99% smart enough to figure out how to track it down themselves.

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by Jaz
IMO, I don't see any problem in a thread to discuss the Doom 3 Alpha demo, and playing the demo itself. After all, it's not like we don't discuss playing certain games on emulators. A prime example is the Metroid one in the GBA forum. If anyone who has posted in that forum, saying that they have played the game, actually owns it, then they are (9 times out of 10), a lier.

So long as there is no information or hints regarding where to download such files, I don't see any problem whatsoever discussing any such Alpha versions.

exactly, discussing playing games on emulators, is on a par with games not released, both technically "illegal" but one is allowed here the other is looked upon as a cardinal sin, and thats just plain hippocritical

[vampireuk]

No its not, its drawing a line at what can be discussed. As some one said earlier we dont want to draw any extra attention to us and this site is focused on emulators, not alphas and over sorts of warez.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by vampireuk
No its not, its drawing a line at what can be discussed. As some one said earlier we dont want to draw any extra attention to us and this site is focused on emulators, not alphas and over sorts of warez.

But the point is, that a ROM is as illegal as an Alpha. Yet we find it OK to talk about playing X ROM on X Emulator, but not about playing the Alpha version of game X.

At the end of the day, we're all going to have different opinions about this, and my personal opinion is as follows..

In the same way that we discuss ROMs, it should be perfectly acceptable to discuss Alpha's, so long as no requests or information regarding where to download the files is given.

IMHO, you've got to treat Alpha versions, leaked or not, in the same way as any ROM image.

[vampireuk]

I think this topic could carry on forever;) and we have pretty much covered absolutly everything now. How about we lay this one to rest?:)

[Smiff]

well, this is "EmuTalk". People who care about the ("real") emulation scene probably want to keep emulation and warez as seperate as possible for the sake of the image of emulation. So if Martin said "no warez talk" i'd support that, but don't care much either way... the main thing is as i said before, not to link the file with the means of distribution (like "click here to download hot new warez!", and stay on topic.

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by vampireuk
I think this topic could carry on forever;) and we have pretty much covered absolutly everything now. How about we lay this one to rest?:)
I dunno, I'm still waiting for the convincing reason why we shouldn't talk about this... other than some weird allowance of one type of discussion but not another on grounds of what game it refers to. I'm admittedly slightly fascinated by this one. The more talk we get on it, the better.

[Smiff]

my last post isn't convincing enough for you?

[bodie]

hmmm how many posts now and this has not progressed at all really ..kind of makes me feel justified :) anyway the bottom line is this is martins board and we all follow martins wishes ..we can do as he wishes or not bother to post ..There are rules and guidelines even in place for the mods ..if we don't agree we don't moderate .. Now let's see if we can get a few more hundred pages on this topic without actually getting anywhere :sly:

[Josep]

Originally posted by vampireuk
I think this topic could carry on forever;) and we have pretty much covered absolutly everything now. How about we lay this one to rest?:)

whose going to be the first "ass" to close this thread?:innocent:

[bodie]

it obviously wont be closed josep..do you see?

[Jaz]

Originally posted by bodie
it obviously wont be closed josep..do you see?

You're a fuckin' mod in here, close it if you really want to.

Personally I don't actually see the point of closing it, but that's just my opinion. By closing it, you're pretty much saying `we think this, so this is how it's gonna be`. But by leaving it open, if the issue is resolved, people won't post in it anymore. But if it's not, they can still have the chance to get their views accross.

It's all going back to the them and us attitude. I've never noticed it before on ET until the last few weeks.

[vampireuk]

The issue wont be resolved though, and as for the "them and us" attitude I havnt seen a mod give off that vibe at all.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by vampireuk
The issue wont be resolved though.

Why not? All I want is a clear answer as to why you can't discuss playing Alpha's, but you can discuss playing ROMs. I'm really not asking for much.

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by Smiff
well, this is "EmuTalk". People who care about the ("real") emulation scene probably want to keep emulation and warez as seperate as possible for the sake of the image of emulation. So if Martin said "no warez talk" i'd support that, but don't care much either way... the main thing is as i said before, not to link the file with the means of distribution (like "click here to download hot new warez!", and stay on topic.

:thumbsup:

[Jaz]

Originally posted by bodie
Bad moderation in my opinion is people closing threads that don't suit yourself and not for the good of the board .. know anybody like that jazz?

You're fucking joking, right? Do I not remember me the one saying that Mods are closing and moving way to many threads?

[Jaz]

Originally posted by bodie
know anybody like that jazz?

And for the record, it's Jaz.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by bodie
jaz (for the record) look down the forums you moderate .. a lot of threads closed without good reason by you ..notice a theme here :p

Care to provide examples?

[Jaz]

Originally posted by bodie
[B]why? have you deleted them like that other post already stated earlier in the thread [B]

What the hell are you on about?

Anyway, it's nice at least to know that you're honest and think I'm a shit moderator.

[Smiff]

IMHO mods are not there to guide the conversation into something "meaningful and wholesome", they are just there to prevent the most extreme trouble, like a very extreme flame war that's spilling over into real life. It's not illegal to be an idiot/waste time/bitch.

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by vampireuk
The issue wont be resolved though, and as for the "them and us" attitude I havnt seen a mod give off that vibe at all.

no really he's right, i can even quote you from irc
"my god im sick of them whining"
so its understandable why you wouldn't see it

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by Smiff
IMHO mods are not there to guide the conversation into something "meaningful and wholesome", they are just there to prevent the most extreme trouble, like a very extreme flame war that's spilling over into real life. It's not illegal to be an idiot/waste time/bitch.
...And in fact... it can add to things greatly, as is being seen in this thread. And personally I'm still waiting for the same clear answer as to why I (or any of the others on here) can't talk about a very enjoyable demo (with extremely fun editing possibilities which are taking things far further than I imagined possible)while I could freely discuss the best solution to killing boss-X in an N64 ROM, or which config gives the best performance.
Idea; If this goes much further without a solid answer, why not do a site-wide poll as we used to do on whether discussion (in the context I've given) should be allowed? Give the members back some of the feeling of shaping the site again.
Just a thought. I have them sometimes.
Excuse me... Eternal Darkness is calling...

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by Smiff
my last post isn't convincing enough for you?
It's convincing in that yes, I get what you're saying 100%, but I still don't understand why discussing an alpha level demo is more likely to incite piracy as supposed, than "hey - look, an N64 emulator! Doesn't that mean I can, you know, play all the greatest N64 games on my PC? And I don't have to pay for them either? They get downloaded? And I can play these perfectly? YES! Zelda! Mario 64! Goldeneye! Perfect Dark! All in just a few hours, and ALL for FREE!!! BWAAAHHAHAHAHAAH!!!"
As opposed to, say, three days worth of solid overnight and daily download time for a buggy 3 partial level sample that'll take more effort than the average "warez boy" will be willing to give just to get what is essentially an early tech demo working, let alone at a decent speed. Doesn't make sense to me.
If you catch my drift...

[Jaz]

Originally posted by sytaylor
no really he's right, i can even quote you from irc
"my god im sick of them whining"

Thank God I'm not the only one who's noticing it.

[Eagle]

I dont see anything wrong with discussing Alphas as long as you dont link to a download of them.

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by Eagle
I dont see anything wrong with discussing Alphas as long as you dont link to a download of them.
That was what I thought... only the recent ammendment to the Gaming Forum rules says otherwise.

[pj64er]

guys, this has never been a problem before. I guess its just that mods are (were) a little trigger happy with their powers because of the recent spamming/flaming/plain pointless shit. Dont anyone remember the leaked UT2k3? and how that was handled?

could everyone just calm down and play nice?

[Raging Fuel]

Originally posted by Stalkid64
Excuse me... Eternal Darkness is calling...

Off topic: Eternal Darkness rules. But they sure did take their sweet time getting it to PAL territories. What chapter are you up to Stalkid? What colour did you choose at the beginning? I'm up to Heresy in a bit over 6 hours, and chose green.

While I'm talking about Eternal Darkness, I just want to I'm disappointed with the camera system. Sure the angles look good when you are walking around normally, but as soon as you need to fight someone, the angles become difficult to work with. Such a shame that the great battle system is ruined by camera angles that make it hard to see what you are doing. Apart from that, everything else about the game is perfect. Gotta love some of those insanity effects.

[AlphaWolf]

daaaayo....

[Josep]

me say daaayyoo;)

hey, i posted freak'n screenies of ut2k3, the beta version, and no one did anything;) and i also posted full version screenies of it a few days b4 it was even out, no one noticed, no one said shit;)

Eternal darkness is insane;) can't put into words;)

annnd ;);)

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by Jaz
Thank God I'm not the only one who's noticing it.

Ok if there is a "them and us" attitude the blame cannot be just offloaded onto us. I dont see anyone of those who are complaining helping at all with this apparent attitude.


ahh whats the point in arguing, lets all celebrate the fact that vamp is 1337 and you are not:D

/me runs like hell and hides behind a rock :devil:

[Jaz]

Originally posted by vampireuk
the blame cannot be just offloaded onto us.

I wasn't offloading it onto anyone in particular.

[Macca]

just everyone blame Raging fuel and forget about it :)

[Raging Fuel]

Sounds like a plan.

[Macca]

now that sounds like some good old reasoning :)

[vampireuk]

/me throws his arms in the air

can we get a amen! :D

[Macca]

amen buffyboy :)

[Jaz]

*rotflol* :happy:

:emutalk:

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by Macca
amen buffyboy :)

:stupid: :D

Why I outa bite your neck and suck out all your blood....damn!:D

:hehe:

[jvolel]

ah i see alot of pso players about heh (yeah thats right this is of topic!!! so sue me!!!!!!!!


edit: whoopsie clicked edit instead of quote, umm yeah im a retard;)

[cooliscool]

Originally posted by jvolel
ah i see alot of pso players about heh (yeah thats right this is of topic!!! so sue me!!!!!!!! :plain2:


Uh.................................

[AlphaWolf]

Heres more doom 3...and yes, this ones legal.

http://darkvision.f2o.org/article.php?sid=913&mode=&order=0&thold=0

[Josep]

Originally posted by jvolel
ah i see alot of pso players about heh (yeah thats right this is of topic!!! so sue me!!!!!!!! :plain2:

your point being...?:)

and how are those pics counted as being legal alphawolf??;) j/k, just trying to make an argument;)

[DuDe]

Those pics are actually from E3.

[Josep]

Originally posted by DuDe
Those pics are actually from E3.

joking come to mind;) dork, who hasn't seen those pics already;)

[AlphaWolf]

oops...oh well, that page contained an unofficial patch for the doom 3 alpha earlier, looks like its gone now.

[DuDe]

Originally posted by Josep
joking come to mind;) dork, who hasn't seen those pics already;)

"j/k, just trying to make an argument" => 'trying to make an argument' doesn't sound like a comical attempt. If it was, I guess you should work on your comical skills a bit, because that ain't funny ;)

[Josep]

Originally posted by DuDe
"j/k, just trying to make an argument" => 'trying to make an argument' doesn't sound like a comical attempt. If it was, I guess you should work on your comical skills a bit, because that ain't funny ;)

ah, well, you took it serious;) those pics don't have a gun or health bars at the bottom, so i'm doubting they were taken by anyone "personally";)

i'm not funny!? wha?!;) you're too serious!:)j/k

[Macca]

Stop winking at me Josep :P your discovery of the ;) is making me nervous :P

[Josep]

Originally posted by Macca
Stop winking at me Josep :P your discovery of the ;) is making me nervous :P

hehe, macca thinks i just discovered the ;) nyway, so what conclusion did we arrive to? that we CAN in fact talk about d3? the past few threads seem to have been deviating from that initial thought;)

there it is!-->;)

[Stalkid64]

Nuh-uh, we can't talk about it according to the "ammended" version of the gaming forum rules. Though... hm, if it isn't in this forum rules, is that a loophole? ;)
*Stalkid64 loves D3 `editor` command*

[DuDe]

Originally posted by Josep


i'm not funny!? wha?!;) you're too serious!:)j/k

Nah, I'm being direct and unmerciful, and you young man, are not funny :D

[vampireuk]

Word (www.vampireuk.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/grandpa.wav)

:P:D :devil:

[crhylove]

whatever.... call it unmerciful... i call it being a prick.

now me saying that was unmerciful.

btw, it is my opinion that your part of the planet could use alot more mercy and tact at this point in time. maybe you could start developing that right here one :emutalk: !

:thumbsup:

[vampireuk]

what are you on about?:sleepy:

[RatTrap]

lol.. how far off topic is this?.. and by the mods.. no less.. TigerTron told me it was bad in here but i thought she was just picky lol..

[vampireuk]

hey its not bad!! its original :P

Its better than it was a few weeks back anyway. I have wanted to close this thread since its just turning into a spamfest but you just know someone would object:innocent:

[DuDe]

Originally posted by crhylove
whatever.... call it unmerciful... i call it being a prick.

now me saying that was unmerciful.



No, you saying that was really fucking stupid.

[crhylove]

but since i am now banned in #emulation64, i thought i'd just point out your abuse of ops there here, since apparently my above comment was why, even though afaik the irc room and emutalk are diff places, i am now banned there.

as for slamming some n00b just because you don't think he's funny, well that's just a blatent display of insecurity, and your behaviors are a big part of what i consider to be the current leaving/negative energy surrounding the scene.

whatever... i've grown bored of the actual emulation, and as you are a mod here, and an op there, i'm tired of the scene too.


thnx for the good times everyone else, but the energy and positivity in the scene have been depleted, so i'm off to the q2 source hacking scene, it's more interesting anyway atm.

thnx again though alpha, martin, rattrap, azimer, schibo, rice, sukh, cpumaster, dk64, trotterwatch, etc.... hope u all have a good life, online and off.

rhy

oh yeah... and rjx... :D i loved your bearcave humor.

peace!

edit: edited your childish bitching, consider yourself lucky I didnt warn you.:plain2:

[vampireuk]

I'm closing this now, its turned into a spam fest and a certain persons flames from no where dont help

/closed:plain2:

DuDe: I;m opening it, no need to close the entire discussion.

[DuDe]

Originally posted by crhylove
but since i am now banned in #emulation64, i thought i'd just point out your abuse of ops
*chuckles*
The only abuse that was seen here, is your abuse of my good will. You were not banned for being racist towards my people on IRC, you were not banned banned for being racist towards Stalkid <a href="http://www.emutalk.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8655">here</a>. If you had an ounce of a brain in the trash can that is your head, you would've probably understood that you're being taught a lesson. Now, you calling me a "prick" doesn't really show that. Oh well, you were a lamer anyway.
Oh yes, as for my "abuse" of ops - you're the only one that I've ever banned from the emu64 irc channel. As you can see, I only do that in very radical situations.



there here, since apparently my above comment was why,

No, I don't speak whatever gibberish language that you're speaking, at least try and make some sense when you're flaming someone.



even though afaik the irc room and emutalk are diff places, i am now banned there.

Basically they are, but we aren't suppose to let lamers into either of those, hence your bannage.



grow up DuDe.
Well then, I might be the not grown up one, but at least I'm not the one advocating theft and software warez under the pitiful excuse of "ethics".



Your maturity is embarrassing (sp)?

Like I said, start making some sense dumbarse.



much less your vulgar vernacular that is completely uncalled for given my earlier comment.

No, flaming a super mod and whining about being banned afterwards is uncalled for. Being lame, and not trying to snap out of it after warnings is uncalled for.



as for slamming some n00b just because you don't think he's funny, well that's just a blatent display of insecurity,


Heh, I believe that Josep would disagree with the term "n00b" in which you have just adressed him... Anyway, slamming someone for his sense of humor isn't a "blatant display of insecurity", it's a blatant display of my opinion. On the other hand, stealing and advocating it by "ethics" sounds like a blatant display of kleptomania.



and your behaviors are a big part of what i consider to be the current leaving/negative energy surrounding the scene.


Well, if my behaviour has made your lame personality stop littering this board with bullshit, then it kinda evens it up.
Oh yeah, when you accuse someone of the "negative energy" around here, you're suppose to back it up with some facts, otherwise you just sound stupid.



whatever... i've grown bored of the actual emulation, and as you are a mod here, and an op there, i'm tired of the scene too.

Well, here's my good deed for today - I saved the emulation scene from your annoying existance.



grow up loser.

ROTFLOL, that really hurts, coming from a <a href="http://www.emutalk.net/showthread.php?postid=90227#post90227">drug abusing</a> shoplifter.



so i'm off to the q2 source hacking scene, it's more interesting anyway atm.

Oh, you're "quitting the scene" now? Well, bugger off, you won't be missed by many.

[RatTrap]

k guys.. that can go private :p..

Dude.. i'm not very fond of chry's atitude ma self but you be a mod :p.. being a flamer on the board isn't helping with the "clean up" i've heard so much about.. especially if your a mod.. just take it to private.. you have no reason to explain yourself to him anyways you know.. you be da man with da noble powa :p.. and he be the man with the ugly avatar :p..

[DuDe]

Originally posted by RatTrap
k guys.. that can go private :p..

Dude.. i'm not very fond of chry's atitude ma self but you be a mod :p.. being a flamer on the board isn't helping with the "clean up" i've heard so much about.. especially if your a mod.. just take it to private.. you have no reason to explain yourself to him anyways you know.. you be da man with da noble powa :p.. and he be the man with the ugly avatar :p..

You're right, but some people deserve a kick in the ass, a specially after such a nice and long list of false accusations that were aimed at me.

[Stalkid64]

so i'm off to the q2 source hacking scene, it's more interesting anyway atm.
So, at least one good thing has come out of this thread so far. Wonder how long they'll tolerate him... *Ahem*
And I'm glad at least a few people are finding the thread enjoyable, as that was the intention all along. We seem to be getting a lot worked out here, and a lot of interesting points are coming up.
EDIT: Forgot vampireuk is somewhat lacking in sense of humour and thus could never have been joking...

[vampireuk]

It wasnt meant to be funny, I closed it since the thread was going no where and it still is going no where. All the points have been made that can be made so I closed it to stop any further spam and flames.

[bodie]

i think the mod that re-opened it should have had the decency to have consulted vampireuk first which is in keeping with martins moderators guidelines which can be viewed here (http://www.emutalk.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5633&pagenumber=2 )
If we can't obey the rules how can we expect others too

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by bodie
i think the mod that re-opened it should have had the decency to have consulted vampireuk first which is in keeping with martins moderators guidelines which can be viewed here (http://www.emutalk.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5633&pagenumber=2 )
If we can't obey the rules how can we expect others too

oo looky i cant see it :inlove: :plain2:

[bodie]

Don't worry sy you're not missing much :plain2:

[Jaz]

Originally posted by bodie
i think the mod that re-opened it should have had the decency to have consulted vampireuk first

Why can I feel you looking at me? ;)

[AlphaWolf]

I don't see any justification for closing this thread. It's a valid issue that needs to be resolved.

[bodie]

Originally posted by Jaz
Why can I feel you looking at me? ;)
lol...hehe nope you're wrong i know it's not you ..it doesn't matter who it was he should of talked to vampire first .. but hey thanks for the laugh,i needed it after the day i have had .. not even looking in your direction though.. anyways i am over it now!
i'm all annoyed out :)
*memo to self* must be more clear in future :D

[bodie]

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
I don't see any justification for closing this thread. It's a valid issue that needs to be resolved.
alpha not being funny but these are martins rules we go by.He owns the board,he calls the shots,where's the issue? You and i post here or we don't and the board goes on regardless still
using martins rules ..None of us have to like it ,we have options ..
And anyway there are only SO many times i want to chase my own tail *looks down* i lied *yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaah*

[DuDe]

Originally posted by bodie
..it doesn't matter who it was he should of talked to vampire first ..

If you're going to accuse me of bad moderation, then just say it out loud, you confused at least one person here.
Anyway, why should I talk to vamp before reopening this thread? You see, as much as I try, I can't remember you asking anyone before you locked this thread a while ago, so don't come with similar accusations to me. Vamp's decision to close the thread may have been a right one when he looked at the thread, but I decided that a small and un-important flaming incident is not suppose to be a reason to close this long discussion, which some people might find interesting.

[bodie]

get your facts right .i am not accusing you of bad moderation i am merely pointing out that to over turn another mods decision should only be done with prior discussion with the mod in question ..So don't make mountains out of molehills ..this is martins rules ..and i think you agree it looks bad ..Anyway i had more than one reason to close this thread which were clearly stated and agreed with when submitted to martin ..This is the reason i don't interfere with other moderation matters because it reflects bad on us .. just needs to be discussed when re-opening <<< doesn't sound THAT bad when you break it down does it :P

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by bodie
alpha not being funny but these are martins rules we go by.He owns the board,he calls the shots,where's the issue? You and i post here or we don't and the board goes on regardless still
using martins rules ..None of us have to like it ,we have options ..
And anyway there are only SO many times i want to chase my own tail *looks down* i lied *yeeeeeeehaaaaaaaah*

Yes but martin didn't close the thread. And I am not saying don't close the thread, I am saying I don't see any justification for doing so.

[RatTrap]

i think this is going abit over board :p.. like now the mods are making a huge deal about closing and opening threads.. just coz of well.. the events i haven't had the full time to catch up on exactly.. well some of it.. but i would lie if i said i've read everything and know it all.. so what i'm saying might be best taken with a pinch of salt or sugar or acid or sumthin :p.. anyways :)..

i feel.. that the mod is never the judge on if a topic has been answered.. especially if someone still has something to say about it.. sure.. i know.. a mod can't read minds.. so he can't know if someone has yet another view that could be added to the thread.. so you see.. that might feel like a problem maybe to some of the mods..

but i feel.. that that is the big reason why threads should'nt be closed at all unless the convo goes completly bonkers or very off topic.. i've seen the mods go off topic in ToTT almost as often as the non mods.. and it has been kept open anyways..

i don't see anything bad with that.. as long as it stays sane and within the rules.. but i feel right should be right.. let everyone get a litle bit off topic.. as long as it's not causing any trouble.. it's alright.. and if it's not that many posts.. i mean if a topic changes from white to black and continues thru black for 10-20 posts then that's way off topic of course.. but if 2 or 3 posts get out of topic i dun see the problem.. that happends on all the boards.. and if your gonna start nagging at ppl for doing sumthing like that i guess we should all get band coz i know i've gotten off topic a few times myself..

now what you guys are doing is going way off topic.. you have been off topic for about 20 posts or so now.. so if your gonna close it.. close it for that.. don't say everything has been answered.. coz i bet even you know it probably hasn't..

actually.. this is one of the threads i've managed to catch up on more.. and i see still no answer to stalkids first question.. but i doubt there will be an official answer.. also stop hiding behind Martys rules.. that i know of.. correct me if i'm wrong but.. you guys set the rules together.. i saw alot of involvment and ideas from the mods in the staff board.. so saying it's just Martys rules is kind of sad.. also i dun think marty has been able to keep up with this thread.. or maybe he has.. i can't speak for him.. but i don't know what he plans to answer stalkids original question.. or if he actually plans to do so..

but i think (not sure) i've seen marty talk about betas on ET and a whole bunch of you mods on this forum too about some beta one time or another.. that is a very high probability if you think about it.. and i will include betas of apps with that.. not just games.. so the question still feels kind of vaguelly answered i guess..

actually.. i remember in the old board.. that i actually saw some mods post links to p2p software :p.. i dunno how far out that is.. and i know we had a thread about that some time ago on the staff board too.. where i commented on how i felt that nothing like that should be linked to ET.. but discussing how to use those types of things is something we allready do today with emulation.. so it feels kinda funny to talk bout one and not the other..

hey.. maybe i'm wrong and maybe your right and i just haven't taken a look at the rules latelly.. but those where my.. eh.. 2 eh.. cents?.. ++?.. :D..

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
Yes but martin didn't close the thread. And I am not saying don't close the thread, I am saying I don't see any justification for doing so.

so about two pages of spam and chidlish flames turning up near the end are not justification. This issue has been resolved and every point has been made as I said earlier. So why are we prolonging this and inviting more spam and flames? The fact that no one has posted anything that contributes towards this issue in the past couple of pages tells me that no one has anything else to add. And also this matter should have been dealt with with PM's in the first place;) :P

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by vampireuk
so about two pages of spam and chidlish flames turning up near the end are not justification. This issue has been resolved and every point has been made as I said earlier. So why are we prolonging this and inviting more spam and flames? The fact that no one has posted anything that contributes towards this issue in the past couple of pages tells me that no one has anything else to add. And also this matter should have been dealt with with PM's in the first place;) :P
And if you look carefully... you'll note that (aside from DuDe and Jaz who seem to be seeing where I've been going with this thread) all the OT and flaming has been done by... mods.
Shocking, isn't it? Oh the irony. ;)
Anyways, rattrap is correct. No-one has yet answered either the `Alpha Software Which Cannot Be Named` question or even the original topic question. So I'd say we still have some way to go here...

[vampireuk]

so? there was quite a bit of spam so I closed it oh shock horror some mods spammed a little bit ffs.

Ok if we still have some way to go here stfu about shit that just does not matter and get back to the god damn topic ffs.

[DuDe]

OK then, I'm going to state my point of view on this topic. I was not a part of the original discussion, nor was I a part of this one, I just hated the fact that the decision of the moderator that deleted the original thread wasn't respected. Anyway, here are my 2 cents on the points that were raised in this thread :

1)We can talk about ROMs, but we can't talk about leaked alphas :
In deed, that may sound like a valid argument. But ROMs, unlike leaked alphas, are still a grey area. But leaked alphas on the other hand, are completely illegal - there is no possible legal way to get those. So there is no reason to allow discussion on those.

2)We could freely talk about the UT2K3 beta/alpha/whatever a few months ago:
Yes, and I dearly regret not closing that thread, since that discussion wasn't anyhow more legal than this one. And from now on, such discussions will be closed, and that includes screenshots of games before their release date.

3)Well, Emu64 allowed rom-linking some time ago :
Again, that was then. Rules change.

4)Emulation is illegal, so why not allow discussion on leaked alphas :
No, that's wrong, emulation is not illegal, although certain companies would like you to think that way. It was also discussed around the board some time ago, and I'm sure that you can dig out the discussion if you search a bit.



Those are probably the most important arguments I've seen around this thread. And, as I see it, those are also the rules that the board members would have to follow from now on . This discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned.

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by RatTrap
i think this is going abit over board :p.. like now the mods are making a huge deal about closing and opening threads.. just coz of well.. the events i haven't had the full time to catch up on exactly.. well some of it.. but i would lie if i said i've read everything and know it all.. so what i'm saying might be best taken with a pinch of salt or sugar or acid or sumthin :p.. anyways :)..


You know, I don't think I could possibly agree more. The thing I tend to notice is that 3 or so moderators here (I wont name names...they know who they are) will close a thread for the sole reason that they want it to be known that they have the power to do so. Not a good thing, all this does is anger everybody else, hence the issue at hand.

[bodie]

Originally posted by DuDe
OK then, I'm going to state my point of view on this topic. I was not a part of the original discussion, nor was I a part of this one, I just hated the fact that the decision of the moderator that deleted the original thread wasn't respected. Anyway, here are my 2 cents on the points that were raised in this thread :

1)We can talk about ROMs, but we can't talk about leaked alphas :
In deed, that may sound like a valid argument. But ROMs, unlike leaked alphas, are still a grey area. But leaked alphas on the other hand, are completely illegal - there is no possible legal way to get those. So there is no reason to allow discussion on those.

2)We could freely talk about the UT2K3 beta/alpha/whatever a few months ago:
Yes, and I dearly regret not closing that thread, since that discussion wasn't anyhow more legal than this one. And from now on, such discussions will be closed, and that includes screenshots of games before their release date.

3)Well, Emu64 allowed rom-linking some time ago :
Again, that was then. Rules change.

4)Emulation is illegal, so why not allow discussion on leaked alphas :
No, that's wrong, emulation is not illegal, although certain companies would like you to think that way. It was also discussed around the board some time ago, and I'm sure that you can dig out the discussion if you search a bit.



Those are probably the most important arguments I've seen around this thread. And, as I see it, those are also the rules that the board members would have to follow from now on . This discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned.
I agree with all of that ..:thumbsup:
alphawolf i wish you would name names because if i am one of those three you need to back it up with hard evidence ..i have been a mod here for two years or something like and you can count the threads i have closed on ten fingers ..hardly excessive i think you'll agree ..I would also like to say a big PUBLIC sorry to jaz and dude for getting on my high horse lately ..But you have to believe this is a much toned down me from the one that used to frequent this board a couple of years ago ..Anyways it's better to say a big public apology so people can see i'm one hell of an ass
:D :D :D :D
regards bodie
Also to alphawolf .. There is no feeling of power in being a mod and for the most part it's not a great deal of fun

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by DuDe

In deed, that may sound like a valid argument. But ROMs, unlike leaked alphas, are still a grey area. But leaked alphas on the other hand, are completely illegal - there is no possible legal way to get those. So there is no reason to allow discussion on those.

Uh, not according to any of the publishers or software developers I'm involved with, or indeed copyright law... sorry to inform/remind you but there is ZERO grey area regarding ROM's, they are unquestionably 100% illegal. Want to try again..?

[DuDe]

No need to try again. You can discuss ROMs on this board, and you can not discuss about leaked alphas. That's it, like it or not.

[maxhart6]

you'r richt man !!!!¡¡¡¡¡!!!!!¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ it's all :bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs::bs:

[Trotterwatch]

I think you can just put it all down to specialisation. This forum is by and large supposed to be emulation orientated - the grey areas are replied to as if they are white, as long as they are to do with emulation (On topic).

Warez is a whole different spectrum, that on the surface is identical to emulation (legally it is the same). I would like to believe that emulation has a more noble aim though, to enable people to play now unpurchasable games on their home PCs at higher resolutions that used to be possible. If anything Emulation has only increased my desire to buy one of the current consoles rather than detrimentally effected it. Whereas if Warez doesn't really have anything that could be purported to be a noble aim (even the try before you buy rule doesn't quite make sense).

I am pleased for example that, the PS2, X-Box and GC have remained thus far unemulated - the community didn't need an emulator for any of these systems - not least because it would have then linked Emulation indefinately with Warez. Of course there is that link due to legality - but we are not here to discuss where roms were obtained from.

Y'know I tried to start this post to make some point, but for the life of me I can't figure out what it was :)

If anything has been learned from this thread though, it should be that any threads that could be considered a grey area, should be held in stasis (closed) and a discussion held with moderators and users alike on wether it can remain open.

Every person has a different viewpoint on things, what one considers to be illegal, anoter could consider perfectly innocent. It is time everyone started to respect each others viewpoints, flaming would be a non issue if differences of opinion could in future be addressed via PM/Email (and that point was not addressed to anyone in particular!).

[vampireuk]

Another thing is this entire situation should have been dealt with via PM's.

Are we all clear on the situation now?:)

[Smiff]

Originally posted by Stalkid64
Uh, not according to any of the publishers or software developers I'm involved with, or indeed copyright law... sorry to inform/remind you but there is ZERO grey area regarding ROM's, they are unquestionably 100% illegal. Want to try again..?

Then don't discuss the roms, discuss the emulators. EmuTalk as a whole is for discussion of emulators. Imagine a rule that you can't discuss PCs in the TechTalk sub-forum because you can use them to run Doom Alpha. The position being taken by the mods is perfectly sensible if you ask me.

EmuTalk = EmulationTalk. It's not rocket science is it. Anyone feel free to go start a WarezTalk or even a RomTalk, but it won't be Martin.

[Jaz]

Originally posted by DuDe
No need to try again. You can discuss ROMs on this board, and you can not discuss about leaked alphas. That's it, like it or not.

DuDe, nothing personal (you know I love ya! :D), but I still don't see why we can't discuss `it`, yet we can discuss ROMs.

I for one would like to hear Marty tell us all yes or no, and why, from the horses mouth.

/me bows down and summons the master..

:emutalk:

[vampireuk]

Well in #emulation64 about a week ago we were talking about this with Martin and he said he did not want it here.:emutalk:

[Jaz]

Originally posted by vampireuk
Well in #emulation64 about a week ago we were talking about this with Martin and he said he did not want it here.:emutalk:

I'd still like to know exactly why. That's all I ask dammit! :happy:

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by bodie

Also to alphawolf .. There is no feeling of power in being a mod and for the most part it's not a great deal of fun

As it should be, though not necessarily is. (read the post I made a few pages back)

[Stalkid64]

Originally posted by DuDe
No need to try again. You can discuss ROMs on this board, and you can not discuss about leaked alphas. That's it, like it or not.
But I'm still baffled as to where this supposed "grey area" you mentioned exists...
This also shows why PM'ing would have zero influence on a topic held "in stasis". What would occur essentially? `The mods decision is final, no correspondance may be entered into.`
And like Jaz, I'm still waiting for the "why". I've been here a long time now and I've never seen this attitude with such things before. Discussion is discussion after all...

[Trotterwatch]

This also shows why PM'ing would have zero influence on a topic held "in stasis". What would occur essentially? `The mods decision is final, no correspondance may be entered into.`

The mods are not an unbending force y'know. If a good arguement is put forward as to why a certain topic should be allowed to continue, it would be looked at with all due consideration. If several mods, as well as users decided that it was fine (with in certain cases Martin having the final say so) then the topic would be given free for all post access once more.

I honestly hope that some things can be worked out, something which benefits all users is what we are aspiring to achieve. Mistakes have been made, and will continue to be made, progress has also been made (this topic alone, I hope proves that).

[Eddy]

Emutalk needs some new blood. I want to return to the days where i checked the message boards daily and saw real good conversations

[AlphaWolf]

/me swings a claw across Eddy's jugular and spills blood all over

You happy now? :devil:

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by Trotterwatch
The mods are not an unbending force y'know. If a good arguement is put forward as to why a certain topic should be allowed to continue, it would be looked at with all due consideration. If several mods, as well as users decided that it was fine (with in certain cases Martin having the final say so) then the topic would be given free for all post access once more.

I honestly hope that some things can be worked out, something which benefits all users is what we are aspiring to achieve. Mistakes have been made, and will continue to be made, progress has also been made (this topic alone, I hope proves that).

thats a very good point, i certainly remember a topic i got dude to open because it was a genuine case of closed without being looked at.. theres sense in the mods somewhere :thumbsup:

[RatTrap]

well.. if you say marty said no.. then i guess it would be a "rule".. but i have to agree with the ppl who are interested in knowing why.. the following is my personal thoughts and how i am thinking.. not any kinds of rules or requests..



i'm not arguing just coz of arguing.. i'm only arguing bcoz of what i find to be right.. my personal views.. after all i'm not a mod in here.. so i consider myself to be just another user..

but i'm also not just arguing coz i would be interested in going into such kind of threads.. personally i'm against the whole leakd alpha type thing.. and i very rarelly download a game to actually play it.. usually i spend my last few bucks and eat rise the rest of the month just for those 3 good games i needed that month.. so it's not about me wanting to discuss the alpha eather..

and about roms being a grey area.. that's just for the general public.. if you ask someone like an ad-company.. they'll just be like.. "eh.. yah we don't know if we want to support you guys.. see emulation is kind of abit ilegal or sumthing".. they'll say that bcoz they are not informed.. if they understood that the discussion here where only about emulators.. that is.. if they actually only where about emulators and nothing more.. like lets say.. pj64 playing a demo rom of some kind that someone made on his PC.. and nothing that involved a comercial game.. then they would know it's in the "white" area..

or.. if they knew that we discuss how to get zelda working perfectly on this or that hardware with pj64 they would know it's not white nor grey.. but eh.. black :p.. wich is what we today do.. and everyone knows that so that's no big secret..

but we hide that somehow.. we talk about alot more things..

that's the reason ET itself ends up in the grey area.. imagine the company having to check thru all the posts on this board to find out where this website stands.. imagine the time and manpower and the cost..

it's not that emulation is in a grey area.. it's not.. it's what we do with it that can stand on eather side.. and since companies can't be bothered to check all of us.. they can't tell.. so it ends up in a grey area..


an alpha like the one in the discussion you had Stalkid.. ends up in the black area.. you know why.. you don't have to ask.. but yeah.. what most ppl in ET do everyday.. also ends up in the black area.. so that is the big problem i guess.. since what we allready do is far away from being grey allready.. then why not talk bout the alpha too?.. my guess is marty feels.. why make it worse then it allready is.....


the thing is.. that i see..

if you alow one.. you should alow the other.. i've said that b4 i know.. but it's just simply because if your not alowing this.. then maybe all help with running commersial games on x emulator should also not be alowed.. know what i mean?.. coz that makes the site stay in the grey area too.. if the intention is to go back to the white area then that is what should be donne..

if not.. ah well.. allow both things.. unless you guys are afraid it could ruin the forum somehow.. like have some company pull up a blowtorch at ET or send some italians with a volvo over to Martys place..

another 2 cents.. pfft i keep losin ma moneys..

[vampireuk]

I think Dude actually explained the "why" stalkid on the other page.

I still think this idea everyone has about us mods locking a topic for no reason is complete BS, and if a thread does get locked that shouldnt it will no doubt be unlocked. Is it that impossible for people to just let something so damn insignificant go?:plain2:

[RatTrap]

vampi :).. i'm starting to see why this topic has gotten so eeek.. long.. and why ppl aren't letting the mods locking threads thing go..



every now and then i see a post from one or more mods that say something short about what's legal and what isn't..

and then fills the screen with more than 3 rows of about the problems of locking and unlocking the threads..

then some of us follow that for a full page of posts and then..

someone comes along.. and says a short line about locking and unlocking.. and then 3 to 5 lines about the rules and legal and ilegal stuff..

and then we talk about that for a page or so again etc etc..

this is why we aren't getting anything donne in this topic.. we're discussing 2 things and it makes it to easy to change the convo and then go back again.. so i bet the same things have been said over and over not nesesarilly being the right answers to anything..

i know both things are relative to eachother.. but that don't make it 1 discussion.. first things first i think.. second is second.. and in this case.. i think the first answer needed in this thread is why and what is aloud to discuss about.. then talk about what should be donne with it.. close or open or ban or whatever..

first the action.. then the reaction.. plz.. so we can actually end this topic..

[jvolel]

Don't know if i've said this already but ET use to be a more friendly and enjoyable emu site to visit, 2 or more years ago nowadays half of the threads get closed for gawd knows what reason. Most of the users and mods (mainly mods, well some of them, excluding most of the ones that where here for a while like gent,smiff,...and whomever am missing) are really bitchy they'll close a thread for sometimes no reason and shun you if you dare say a word about it, as for the users some do complain a bit too much (yeah ive had my share of complaints, all 2 of them) but still.... :plain2:

[vampireuk]

Originally posted by jvolel
Most of the users and mods (mainly mods, well some of them, excluding most of the ones that where here for a while like gent,smiff,...and whomever am missing) are really bitchy they'll close a thread for sometimes no reason and shun you if you dare say a word about it, as for the users some do complain a bit too much (yeah ive had my share of complaints, all 2 of them) but still.... :plain2:

Rattums I kind of see your point now;)

jvolel provide some evidence to your claim of this, because I have seen the forums get better lately since the mods have started clamping down. I still stand by saying this should have been dealt with through pm's. Again jvolel there is nothing that will annoy me more than claims of things that we have not done :plain2:


are really bitchy they'll close a thread for sometimes no reason and shun you if you dare say a word about it,

jvolel I went over your past posts and noticed that the vast majority of the threads you have posted in are still actually open! and the ones that are closed are full of spam and off topic conversations:innocent:

[Eddy]

And then we have people like AlphaWolf, who make this place all the better :plain2:

ET has gotten faster, has grown in users, and has more topics than ever before, but it just doesnt have that thing it had back in the days of pj 1.0, after 1.4 the boards got gay with alot of newbies and threads being closed, new members comin in and dissing people, it got old quick. This is just my opinion, not a solution, or a problem, just the way et evolved.

People like RatTrap and stalkid are real cool people to have conversations with on the message board. Stalkid made really good posts also. But hey, shit happens

[jvolel]

Originally posted by vampireuk
Rattums I kind of see your point now;)

jvolel provide some evidence to your claim of this, because I have seen the forums get better lately since the mods have started clamping down. I still stand by saying this should have been dealt with through pm's. Again jvolel there is nothing that will annoy me more than claims of things that we have not done :plain2:



jvolel I went over your past posts and noticed that the vast majority of the threads you have posted in are still actually open! and the ones that are closed are full of spam and off topic conversations:innocent:

ok well i stand corrected :satisfied
come to think of it there was a topic (if am not mistaken) in the waay off topic fourms that was close, which may have been reopened now. In my opinion no topic should be closed in that part of the fourm mainly because it is a part of the fourms to place waaay off topic subjects. hell you should be able to talk about your pet monkey gorge if you wanted too lol.

The thread was about someone showing a pic of there girlfriend that had gotten closed (mind you it was in the off topic thread).. i don't recall exactly what topic it was since it was a while ago so i can't provide exact evidence of when it got closed. My only guess is that the thread contained nude pics of the girl or girls. If thats the case then i understand why it was closed other then that, i don't see why it was closed. Ill try to find the thread when i get a chance

[bodie]

Originally posted by jvolel
ok well i stand corrected :satisfied
come to think of it there was a topic (if am not mistaken) in the waay off topic fourms that was close, which may have been reopened now. In my opinion no topic should be closed in that part of the fourm mainly because it is a part of the fourms to place waaay off topic subjects. hell you should be able to talk about your pet monkey gorge if you wanted too lol.

The thread was about someone showing a pic of there girlfriend that had gotten closed (mind you it was in the off topic thread).. i don't recall exactly what topic it was since it was a while ago so i can't provide exact evidence of when it got closed. My only guess is that the thread contained nude pics of the girl or girls. If thats the case then i understand why it was closed other then that, i don't see why it was closed. Ill try to find the thread when i get a chance
I didn't close that thread which i believe may be the babe thread but can understand why someone closed it, it makes life more interesting to come to a forum and read new topics on various subjects which expand your mind. what i hate to see is an ancient thread brought back from the dead because someone wants to add a "yes you're right" comment after a couple of months, it makes the forum seem stale very quickly ..It's also getting tiresome to keep hearing about the amount of threads being closed because at the moment THAT amount is not that great .. Not to put too fine a point on it but i have had threads closed whilst writing a message, it's no biggie you just move onto something new .. this is how i have always seen it as both a user and a moderator .. We may as well let this 'mod power' thing go because at the end of the day we are here to help and without us the forum would be a very vicious place to be and in all probability wouldn't survive for long
regards bodie

[vampireuk]

Amen bodie, we are here yo help believe it or not and you may not agree with it but most of the threads you are refering to had to be closed. Again I agree with bodie it sounds like we are closing every thread just because we can. Look in the majority of the forums, pretty much every topic locked is spam or has something against the rules.:)

[Jaz]

Originally posted by bodie
I didn't close that thread which i believe may be the babe thread but can understand why someone closed it

I started, and closed the Baaabe Thread. It was just time. :plain:

[Stalkid64]

Amazing... once again, off-topic and once again I'm not responsible. This is disconcerting... ;)

Proposal then - Why not let people discuss the Game Which Cannot Be Named if they wish, even if it means we can't even directly refer to it by name, or even on the understanding that mentions of obvious p2p software would get it closed? Anyone joining in would obviously already need to know what we were talking about and have gotten it for themselves after all.

How would that ever be seen as promotion of illegal software if it goes without name or specifics, which as I read it were the supposed problem with the original thread? Interesting point IMHO.

Personally I'd love a nice discussion on `editor`techniques (damn DM spawnpoints...) or even the same old config/fps stuff we had before, even if it does have to be done under stupidly constricting circumstances.

[vampireuk]

Amazing... once again, off-topic and once again I'm not responsible. This is disconcerting

no we are not, read the past few posts. They are about moderating standards which is part of the topic of this entire thread:innocent:

Although that idea of yours seems ok to me as long as there would be no direct references to what is been discussed, sounds fair to me:).

[jvolel]

Originally posted by Jaz
I started, and closed the Baaabe Thread. It was just time. :plain:

ahh ok that explains it.. if a mod opens a thread, he has absolute power over it....just like if i opened a thread and decide to delete it.... but my point stands that no matter how silly a thread in (the waay off topic thread, and off topic) is it should never be closed unless there are some pretty sick stuff in there...

[RatTrap]

there have been some pretty sick stuff in there :p.. enugh to start flame wars..

i remember a sertain young fellow saying his girlfriend was that famous tennis player babe.. kornikova?.. i think..

as for this being off topic.. well.. i was about to quote bodie.. and say.. "what this does have to do with anything"..

ppl have gonne off topic saying many things in this thread.. among those things have been that the mods are power hungry..

this is not the topic of this thread if you read the first post..

it started as a question.. that has yet not been answered.. only restricted to the fact that it is not wanted.. so i still take stalkid's side on things..

you guys are still talking about the reaction when what you should be considering your time and thoughts is with the action.. like i said on my last post..

[bodie]

Originally posted by RatTrap
there have been some pretty sick stuff in there :p.. enugh to start flame wars..

i remember a sertain young fellow saying his girlfriend was that famous tennis player babe.. kornikova?.. i think..

as for this being off topic.. well.. i was about to quote bodie.. and say.. "what this does have to do with anything"..

ppl have gonne off topic saying many things in this thread.. among those things have been that the mods are power hungry..

this is not the topic of this thread if you read the first post..

it started as a question.. that has yet not been answered.. only restricted to the fact that it is not wanted.. so i still take stalkid's side on things..

you guys are still talking about the reaction when what you should be considering your time and thoughts is with the action.. like i said on my last post..
Yes i agree this thread as become somewhat of a mess and as pretty much veered off the track..time to get back on topic and stop with the moderator baiting people.. and it's ok to quote me ratters, i do it all the time :P

[Jaz]

Originally posted by RatTrap
so i still take stalkid's side on things..

I'm still with you on this one too.

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by Eddy
And then we have people like AlphaWolf, who make this place all the better :plain2:


/me is confused

What did I do?

[RatTrap]

bribe him? :p..

[Josep]

wow, 14 pages, i guess people have scared the mods and admins into NOT closing this thread or sending it to waay of topic??:)

[bodie]

Originally posted by Josep
wow, 14 pages, i guess people have scared the mods and admins into NOT closing this thread or sending it to waay of topic??:)
And what do you want to be when you grow up :P

[Stalkid64]

Either that or they know what we've been saying makes sense.

[vampireuk]

and maybe you have realised we have been talking sense too. Stop this lame mod baiting bs for the love of god:plain:

[Stalkid64]

Fairly obvious double standards are considered sense now?

[vampireuk]

and there you are going at it again, look we have listened to pages of bitching against the rules you have made your point so just sshh now kthnx.

I also see no double standards about warez on here, if its nothing to do with emulators it doesnt belong here. Ok lets go over that point again

No emulation related = no belong here

Would you perhaps prefer a puppet show to explain this?
:innocent:

[RatTrap]

ehm.. not to be an ass.. but.. eh.. isn't this talk of the town?.. and doesn't that mean you would have to pretty much close or delete half the threads in here?..

[vampireuk]

no because I see no warez in here :P

[AlphaWolf]

Hmmm...and then some demonstrate the exact behavior I am refering to...

[vampireuk]

and what would that be alpha? Just spit it out

[AlphaWolf]

Is that not what I do best? :sly: Scroll upwards...

[vampireuk]

/me smacks you

talk sense man :P

anyway lets just let this topic drop down into oblivion shall we:cool:

[Stalkid64]

/r_explainveryslowlymode 1
(One for fans of DoomConfig.cfg there...) ;)

Warez equal illegal. Following so far? Good.
ROM's equal illegal. Still following? Great!
So what have we seen thus far in this post? That's right! Both warez and ROM's are 100% illegal!
Now... and this seems to be the tricky part to grasp so pay close attention...
IF warez = illegal THEN closetopic$
IF roms = illegal THEN topicallowed$
(A very "BASIC" explanation... hm, how many people will get the double-joke there?) ;)
And there we have... a double standard! Which most others seem to have accepted the existence of here...
/r_explainveryslowlymode 0

[Jaz]

Originally posted by Stalkid64
hm, how many people will get the double-joke there? ;)

I did I did! ;)