EU wants to be anti-american isolationists?

[AlphaWolf]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/26612.html

I sure hope the guy at the register who wrote that artical knows what he is getting himself into.

I saw an interesting response on slashdot:



The funny part is, if the EU cuts off the US, they also cut most of their connections to each other. Seems that their well-regulated telco monopolies can't seem to agree on how to set up peering arrangements, so large chunks of the intra-Europe IP traffic goes by way of New York and Washington DC.

Okay, I get it, he hates America and thinks that if anyone is going to excercise hegemony over European nations, it should be other European nations. Dumbass, it's called "Divide and Conquer", if the large multi-nationals (which these days are no more American than they are Bermudan, which is where they are theoretically based) wanted to make rebuilding the Internet in their image easier, they'd start by splitting it up into chunks that were easier to manage.

There *are* two spaces, always have been. One where we eat, piss, and fuck, and another where we think, converse, cooperate, and compete. That dichotomy has always been there, all the internet did was remove the last of the trappings of a connection. There's entire worlds in there, I know because I've helped build a couple of them, that have nothing to do with meatspace.

--Dave Rickey

[Romboy]

It has about as much chance as for the bill to get passes in the US for hacking consumers.

[DuDe]

EU wants to be anti-american isolationists?
Haven`t they always wanted?

[Sukh]

Erm, if you read up to the top it does say 'Guest Opinion' so....

But overall, Europe does get seriously pissed off when America thinks it doesn't have to listen to us :)

[Sukh]

Oh, and this Iraq thing certainly isn't helping.

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by Sukh
Oh, and this Iraq thing certainly isn't helping.

word

[2fast4u]

aside from that AlphaWolf, whats so shocking about this article? most of the accusations that the author makes are right. however its wrong to blame america for all issues that come up for that matter like the author does here. in reaction to that your own response has the same isolationist character btw ... :sleepy:

[AlphaWolf]

As if nobody in europe has proposed crazy laws only to have them either not passed or rejected later down the line? *ahem* (http://www.patent.gov.uk/about/consultations/eccopyright/index.htm) (makes the DMCA look like a free speech advocate marching in china). Why does everybody like to pick at every little mistake we make? Sure as a nation, we may be perfect, but we aren't THAT perfect :happy:. I think you should all go pick on the french instead :D.

BTW: 2fast4u...isolationist? me?

[Sukh]

I can't be bothered to read that much, what's this 'ahem' you refer to? :)

[AlphaWolf]

UK is about to approve (or try to) its own version of the DMCA, only its more strict. EU is advocating implimenting similar measures into every european country.

And you all say that americans never pay attention to whats going on in other countries :D

[Sukh]

heh, i'm sure if it was that bad we'd all know about it already

[thine_impalor]

there IS 1 thing that the rest of the world agrees needs to b reduced......global warming......if i remember rite, bush didn't agree to the kyoto treaty did he(if im wrong correct me PLZ)? the US produces the largest amount of CO2........well i guess thats Bush's fault not urs:-p

[AlphaWolf]

Actualy no, in fact that was printed in an artical in the local paper a few days ago, mexico is the worst, with beijing china at a close second.

Besides, the current "global warming" is in part a result of natural geological changes which nobody can do anything about (hasn't everybody realized that there has been more than just one ice age? sooner or later we are destined for another one, and the desert areas will become jungle again.)

Find something else to nit pick at us with :P

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by Sukh
heh, i'm sure if it was that bad we'd all know about it already

Oh? Or were you too busy worrying about what the americans were going to do next to pay attention? :happy:

Seriously though, the UK government is considering adopting that plan. I realy hope they don't, because if other countries start doing it too, it will make it that much harder for us to gain back our constitutional rights.

[Sukh]

Anyway, George Dubya Is Pretty Dumb - you have to admit that!

[DuDe]

Who`s George Dubya?

[Jaz]

:sleeping: ..

[2fast4u]

AlphaWolf, i aint saying that america is all bad, but u surely tend to ignore the mistakes the your country makes. i have alot to criticize of what america does and europe aint much better, but "my country - right or wrong" doesnt seem to be a reasonable attitude ;)

the issue about global warming is partly geological, however its proven that man does the main part to it. if u are denying that its like the elefant in the livingroom that nobody mentions ... :sleepy:

[Sukh]

Dude, George Dubya is George W. Bush

It's just how some americans say double-u (W) as dubya

hence George Dubya

[DuDe]

Ah.

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
Actualy no, in fact that was printed in an artical in the local paper a few days ago, mexico is the worst, with beijing china at a close second.

Besides, the current "global warming" is in part a result of natural geological changes which nobody can do anything about (hasn't everybody realized that there has been more than just one ice age? sooner or later we are destined for another one, and the desert areas will become jungle again.)

Find something else to nit pick at us with :P

finally! someone who see's this

/me shakes your hand

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
AlphaWolf, i aint saying that america is all bad, but u surely tend to ignore the mistakes the your country makes. i have alot to criticize of what america does and europe aint much better, but "my country - right or wrong" doesnt seem to be a reasonable attitude ;)

the issue about global warming is partly geological, however its proven that man does the main part to it. if u are denying that its like the elefant in the livingroom that nobody mentions ... :sleepy:

the percentage has always been negligeable in reports i have read (and before you ask i dont look for ones called "look man really isn't cuasing global warming"...)

but as for your point about the EU the only reason they are going so strongly against america is that they have always disliked the polotics... the guys in brussels do not like the way america do things... the guys in america dont give a shit and u have the uk sat in the middle...

whats underlying here is the bigger issue which we can't really escape... bush wants to get sadam out because he knows sadam has been building an arsenal, but he has no reason to do so and as such pretty much everyone, even blair doesnt like what going on... hell even churchill would have been sceptical

[AlphaWolf]

bah just forget it.

[Sukh]

lol

american-european politics never mix :) Leave them untouched please. kthx.

Pick on some 'axis of evil' countries :)

[sytaylor]

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
bah just forget it.

take it by the edit you were gonna post a lot ;)

[AlphaWolf]

Well the main thing is that every action the US makes is looked down on by europe, good or bad, and we can't do anything without anybody else watching us like a hawk. Sure thats to be expected because we aren't exactly a low profile nation, but the ones who complain about what we do don't seem to practice what they preach.

Sure, we may have made a few mistakes in the past, but 93.4% of them that were done after the manifest destiny was fulfilled were done with the best intentions. Most of those were where we put corruptable leaders into power, and we learned from those mistakes, one of the very reasons we never finnished off saddam in the gulf war.

[sytaylor]

sure a point i kind of agree with, but it doesn't excuse going after someone without first having evidence to do so

[2fast4u]

Well the main thing is that every action the US makes is looked down on by europe, good or bad, and we can't do anything without anybody else watching us like a hawk.

do u expect to be treated differently from other countries? not like this applies to the united states only.


the ones who complain about what we do don't seem to practice what they preach.

define please


were done with the best intentions

well, what exactly is a good intention? keeping out communism seemed a good idea to the western nations, on the other side this looks differently.
invading countries to secure markets and oil seem to be a good intention from your point of view but ... well u get the point.



Most of those were where we put corruptable leaders into power

thanks for seeing that

[Sukh]

93.4% that precise? lol

Yeah, we should keep out comj00nists wherever and whenever possible! Die commie scum, die!

:)

Stop arguing now, Europe and the USA are allies :) Although I think what 2fast4u is trying to say is, stop treating us like Canada! :)

[Sukh]

I personally believe Saddam must be removed, and if war is the only option then so be it. But I think they should at least publicly explore others.

[EDIT]
lol, where'd your post go?

[AlphaWolf]

do u expect to be treated differently from other countries? not like this applies to the united states only.

Correct, so why is it that we are treated differently from other countries?


define please

Hmm...k...I wonder how many more times the US has attempted genocide than germany? Yeah bad example, but I am trying to be light here, I could list a few more.


well, what exactly is a good intention? keeping out communism seemed a good idea to the western nations, on the other side this looks differently.
invading countries to secure markets and oil seem to be a good intention from your point of view but ... well u get the point.

Western nations? Well FYI europe was well involved in that. Also theres a difference between stealing a market and securing it. In the gulf war we prevented iraq from "securing" the oil market. Did it benefit us? Yes, in various ways, but who else did it benefit? Who did it prevent from getting even more money to increase the size of his already large army?


thanks for seeing that

Your welcome, and watch how in a few years another corrupt government will end up taking over afganistan, and theres not a damn thing we can do about it, but at least we got rid of a worse one right? :sleepy:

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by sytaylor
sure a point i kind of agree with, but it doesn't excuse going after someone without first having evidence to do so

Sure I guess, only I don't think Sun-Tzu would agree :sly:.

Quite frankly though, what kind of evidence is necessary? We don't want their assets, as they have none. We certainly don't want revenge, to harm their pride, or to better our own, as we won the last war against them already. I would think our only possible motivations for war against them would speak for the evidence (if you have ever seen the movie behind enemy lines, where the main character saw the genocide going on that the UN knew about but wouldn't touch, you would know what I am talking about, because stuff like that does actualy happen). But hell thats probably against some unspoken-yet-punishable peace rule, so I guess I'll stand down from any further argument, after all it doesn't involve me.

EDIT: screwed this one up earlier sukh.

[Hacktarux]

Why do u feel so persecuted ? You live in the greatest power. A country that is rich, that has a great army, that can influence the world... It's normal that other countries criticize your faults isn't it ?
Concerning the europe, we also live in great countries and i'm sure that we are criticized as well by other nations (USA included) but i don't think about it as an injustice, what's the problem with it ?

[sytaylor]

hell yeah the uk gets more crap from the eu (yes theres a difference between that and europe...) than the usa!! because the people in charge of the EU are like blair they play the popularity game, and right now with the exception of in america Bush is totally not popular... in the uk his approval ratings are dreadful... lets not forget that america has more propaganda than anywhere i have ever been to in my life (and thats quite a few places..) "one nation under god"

its this attitude which tipifies why people don't like the american leader... and when you have someone like bush who is using the fact that america are such a powerful country to justify his actions people are not gonna be happy! His lack of tact astounds me

If he wanted to check out the weapons situation in iraq it would make a hell of a lot more sense to try and get the UN to push saddam in to it... as a result of him saying no action can be taken, but the UN have had very little involvement, Bush does everything from his office in washington, forgetting theres a whole world of polotics out there.

Its a very arrogant and niave aproach to something that could potentially cost lives is large numbers... you need a reason to justify attacking someone, and you need to throw them diplomacy lifelines which if they then reject you HAVE a reason to use force...

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by Hacktarux
Why do u feel so persecuted ? You live in the greatest power. A country that is rich, that has a great army, that can influence the world... It's normal that other countries criticize your faults isn't it ?
Concerning the europe, we also live in great countries and i'm sure that we are criticized as well by other nations (USA included) but i don't think about it as an injustice, what's the problem with it ?

Not persecuted, just annoyed. Picture somebody scratching their ass while they are telling you about how bad your manners are. I think the only criticism I have ever heard about european nations recently from the media is they all want peace keeping troops to be sent wherever, but none of em are willing to send their own troops. The US makes up for about 85% of the UNs combined forces.


Originally posted by sytaylor
hell yeah the uk gets more crap from the eu (yes theres a difference between that and europe...) than the usa!! because the people in charge of the EU are like blair they play the popularity game, and right now with the exception of in america Bush is totally not popular... in the uk his approval ratings are dreadful... lets not forget that america has more propaganda than anywhere i have ever been to in my life (and thats quite a few places..) "one nation under god"


Its strange, yet flattering, that our political leaders have official approval ratings in foreign countries...though don't you have a prime minister or something? Well...nothing outright wrong with it...I guess I have no comment here other than that though :happy:.



its this attitude which tipifies why people don't like the american leader... and when you have someone like bush who is using the fact that america are such a powerful country to justify his actions people are not gonna be happy! His lack of tact astounds me

If he wanted to check out the weapons situation in iraq it would make a hell of a lot more sense to try and get the UN to push saddam in to it... as a result of him saying no action can be taken, but the UN have had very little involvement, Bush does everything from his office in washington, forgetting theres a whole world of polotics out there.


I don't think the UN would make a huge difference. Take the N in UN, and go down about 5 letters in the alphabet, thats what saddam thinks of the UN, and he doesn't have to, nor will, do a single thing they say either.



Its a very arrogant and niave aproach to something that could potentially cost lives is large numbers... you need a reason to justify attacking someone, and you need to throw them diplomacy lifelines which if they then reject you HAVE a reason to use force...

Well, as I said in the last post, I stand down to this argument, because my oppinion of collateral dammage is probably much different than anybody elses. (by the geneva conventions, if a civilian so much as throws a rock at a soldier in a wartime environment, they instantly are considered to be enemy, and that soldier can just kill them on the spot, yet lots of people say otherwise, its all just a huge technicality mess)

[2fast4u]

Correct, so why is it that we are treated differently from other countries?

well u arent, but i have a feeling the united states expects other countries not to criticize their actions, especially since bush came in power.


Hmm...k...I wonder how many more times the US has attempted genocide than germany? Yeah bad example, but I am trying to be light here, I could list a few more.

i cant deny that, historically there is no greater mass murderer than hitler ... however ... looking at the present im sure the us is the worldwide leader with a huge lead. there is not much sense in digging in history and blaming for stuff that has happened before (even tho i tend to do that myself, i know).

ill try to sum my thoughts up ... the usa is behaving arrogant in regard to the rest of the world. your president wipes his ass with international treaties because they dont neccessarily serve the us's interests but the purpose of justice in the world. the international criminal court is just one example. how can you think that americans should be treated differently from ppl from other countries? arent we all alike?

[blizz]

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
Its strange, yet flattering, that our political leaders have official approval ratings in foreign countries...though don't you have a prime minister or something? Well...nothing outright wrong with it...I guess I have no comment here other than that though :happy:.

don't flatter your self, there aren't, we have general survey's performed by different people at different times including the government, but there isn't an approval rating system.


Not persecuted, just annoyed. Picture somebody scratching their ass while they are telling you about how bad your manners are. I think the only criticism I have ever heard about european nations recently from the media is they all want peace keeping troops to be sent wherever, but none of em are willing to send their own troops. The US makes up for about 85% of the UNs combined forces.

the EU always acts like an idiot over it's armed forces, the official languages for this EU Rapid Reaction Force are supposed to be French and German but because they all speak English and not each others language they end up speaking English,

[blizz]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
ill try to sum my thoughts up ... the usa is behaving arrogant in regard to the rest of the world. your president wipes his ass with international treaties because they dont neccessarily serve the us's interests but the purpose of justice in the world. the international criminal court is just one example. how can you think that americans should be treated differently from ppl from other countries? arent we all alike?

the US didn't join the ICCJ (or whatever it's current name is) because they can't trust their military not to fuck up (bombing allies and bombing civillians etc...)

[AlphaWolf]

Originally posted by 2fast4u
[QUOTE]
ill try to sum my thoughts up ... the usa is behaving arrogant in regard to the rest of the world. your president wipes his ass with international treaties because they dont neccessarily serve the us's interests but the purpose of justice in the world. the international criminal court is just one example. how can you think that americans should be treated differently from ppl from other countries? arent we all alike?

The ICC is going to end up much like the league of nations, which was a complete utter waste, and we know this. Think about it, the purpose here is to punish corrupt leaders who violate human rights, but only if he agrees to do so, right? if not then he breaks the treaty, correct? Now what makes you think a corrupt leader would agree to be punished by somebody when he fully intends to break international law? All he has to do is say no, and then the "peace mongerers" won't go after him because they are too worried about accidently injuring just one of his civilians.

Well, think about this, what happened with japan, a member of the league of nations, just before WWII? The league of nations said quit harassing mongolia or else we are kicking you out of being a member. Japans response went basicaly like this: "We don't give a fuck, if we leave the league of nations then you can't do anything to punish us can you? So go fuck off!" And guess what? They did just that. Now the UN on the other hand was a better thing, the UN permitted allied nations to actualy take assertive action against somebody they don't have a treaty with, the ICC doesn't do this.

Based on history, its pretty safe to say that the US has made very good decisions reguarding things like this, and I agree with our governments decision to not join in on an agressive idea to make passive actions. I think useless can't even begin to describe the ICC.

[blizz]

the slight problem being that without the US the ICC was made useless ;)

[2fast4u]

AlphaWolf:

the icc is nothing like the league of nations dude .. u cant even compare those two. the icc is a court were ANYONE can be tried for human rights violations, like u ingeniously remarked. now u r saying the united states wont join the icc coz it doesnt do shit. wouldnt your leaders say so in that case? :sleepy: im afraid they dont. i am suprised how u spoke the true reason out loud ..


Now what makes you think a corrupt leader would agree to be punished by somebody when he fully intends to break international law?

there we go ..

the icc is NOT useless, more like the united states administration STRIVES to make it useless. after all one purpose of a worldwide community is that we all control each other and watch each others actions to make sure nobody fucks up stuff. u say tha the united states has made good desciscions, then tell me what do u possibly have to worry about by joining the icc?

[AlphaWolf]

Its perfectly comparable to the league of nations; because both of them are just mutual agreements made by specific governments. Now remember, country and government are two different things, if a country revolts against its government, and a corrupt leader is empowered, then he doesn't have to listen to anything that the ICC says. And I certainly don't expect that the ICC would actively prevent revolutions, because if so then they are worse than the corrupt government themselves.


the icc is NOT useless, more like the united states administration STRIVES to make it useless. after all one purpose of a worldwide community is that we all control each other and watch each others actions to make sure nobody fucks up stuff. u say tha the united states has made good desciscions, then tell me what do u possibly have to worry about by joining the icc?

Oh nothing, except that maybe 85% of everything that the ICC has will end up being funded by us, just like the UN. It'll just be an unnecessary drain on our resources :happy:

EDIT: here are the exact political reasons for us not joining, and I agree with them fully: http://www.state.gov/s/wci/rls/fs/2002/9978.htm

Most of the countries that join count on people being good natured, which we know all too well is not always true.

[Hacktarux]

here's a little video from a french political satire with puppets :p

rtsp://195.154.247.204:554/cnlmedia/videologger/La%20Semaine%20des%20Guignols/fucktheworld.rm

i'm sure it will get AlphaWolf's nerves again ;) lol

[AlphaWolf]

*shrug* its possible, but if I refuse to install anything relating to realmedia networks on my PC, then the only way its possible is if WMP or powerdvd ever support those formats :happy:

[2fast4u]

Originally posted by AlphaWolf
*shrug* its possible, but if I refuse to install anything relating to realmedia networks on my PC, then the only way its possible is if WMP or powerdvd ever support those formats :happy:

ignorance is NOT strength u know ;)

[AlphaWolf]

but not installing spyware is :D