Blu-ray is going down!

[Doomulation]

Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD-DVD Wins - Talk Back - Digital Trends (http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html)
It seems likely that Blu-ray will fail. Sorry, Sony, you just screwed up again. Oh, and be sure to sign the petition for HD-DVD. We need only ONE standard.

[Falcon4ever]

Boring Doom, I know you love anti-sony campaigns but who gives a F.

I prefer Blu-ray over HD-DVD anyways, as I will only be using it for the PC (as backup medium) whenever it comes out...

[Doomulation]

Boring Doom, I know you love anti-sony campaigns but who gives a F.
I for one do. And I'm sure others want to know what's happening in the HD movies market as well. And who gives a rat about you?


I prefer Blu-ray over HD-DVD anyways, as I will only be using it for the PC (as backup medium) whenever it comes out...

That's practically all it will be good at. Until better solutions come. And they aren't far off.

[t0rek]

Sorry, Sony, you just screwed up again. Oh, and be sure to sign the petition for HD-DVD. We need only ONE standard.

That's sounds too personal, like Sony is actually a human being and you are talking to him.

I don't like the Blu-Ray format, and I know Sony is screwing up lately, but I don't consider Sony an enemy, because lots of their products are good quality. Sony is just another brand after all.

[ScottJC]

Blu-ray isn't just about Sony you know, its a format standard too.

[Doomulation]

But they sure have screwed up lately... anyway, it looks like their screwups may have doomed the blu-ray. Unfortunate for sony, but good for those who like HD-DVD. Maybe this war will come to a close soon.
EDIT: Yes, a standard pushed by Sony. Sony's format and Sony is the main backer. Companies are getting a little nervous of the BD format now...

[t0rek]

So it seems that Blu-Ray is going down, but not dead... Only time will tell

[Ruthless_Edge]

So it seems that Blu-Ray is going down, but not dead... Only time will tell

dun dun DUNNNN!!!!!! *dramatic pause*

[Miretank]

The person who wrote that article is not being impartial. I hate that. Besides that, Blu-ray is not even much used yet. Too much early to say anything. Specially when related to PS3.

Doom buddy, you're getting too much obsessed with all this. :plain:

[smegforbrain]

This isn't Betamax vs VHS.

There are a lot more companies than just Sony supporting Blue Ray, it's just Sony is at the forefront because of the PS3.

This battle is far from over; anybody that's declaring it over already doesn't have a clue.

Oh, and how much of a surprise is this: MS wants you to use your XBox 360 as a HD-DVD player... just like Sony with the PS3. And after you tack on that extra $200 to do so, you're paying as much for a 360 as a PS3. Sticker shock, indeed.

[Doomulation]

The person who wrote that article is not being impartial. I hate that. Besides that, Blu-ray is not even much used yet. Too much early to say anything. Specially when related to PS3.

Doom buddy, you're getting too much obsessed with all this. :plain:
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Still, the signs for blu-ray now isn't looking good. And from what I know, Sony is stealing all the blu-ray lasers for its PS3, so none other can manufacture (or will have trouble to) Blu-ray players.


This isn't Betamax vs VHS.
Déja vu?


There are a lot more companies than just Sony supporting Blue Ray, it's just Sony is at the forefront because of the PS3.
Sony is the main supporter. It's their format. If I'm not mistaken, Sony invented it. OF course they want to push their own format. Even if companies are lining up behind the formats doesn't mean they can't switch lines.


Oh, and how much of a surprise is this: MS wants you to use your XBox 360 as a HD-DVD player... just like Sony with the PS3. And after you tack on that extra $200 to do so, you're paying as much for a 360 as a PS3. Sticker shock, indeed.

Well, at least we don't HAVE to buy it with the console, unlike PS3. And I reckon there will be a price slash on the 360 soon, as the early adopters are getting fewer and fewer.
And hey, it's a very cheap player if you have a 360. Although if you buy a 360 solely for the purpose of playing HD-DVD movies, then yes, it's like the PS3...

[smegforbrain]

Déja vu?

No, and for the reason I stated: Sony isn't going alone at this. Other companies stand to lose as well.

In the end, we all lose because of this though: two formats is bad.


If I'm not mistaken, Sony invented it.

According to Wiki, they were part of the original Blue-Ray Disc Association, along with 8 other electronic companies, many of those others being big names in the electronic biz, such as Phillips, Hitachi, and Sharp. Wiki does not say if any one company actually got credit for creating Blue Ray.

But among the other companies that have since joined on: Apple, Dell, HP, TDK, Twentieth Century Fox, Walt Disney, and Warner Bros.

There's a lot of money invested in these, even by the movie studios who are backing one format over another. It really is going to be a war of attrition.


Although if you buy a 360 solely for the purpose of playing HD-DVD movies, then yes, it's like the PS3...

Which is what MS, and Sony, are both pushing: use their hardware as a dual-purpose machine. Hell, use their machines to do everything. :)

In the end, it's a very logical move, all things considered. When I first got a PS2, I used it as a DVD player for awhile, because while it wasn't a great DVD player, I don't have a great tv anyways to worry about it. That, and it beat dropping extra cash for a real DVD player, since they still weren't cheap at that point. :)

I'm not saying that those predictions won't come to pass, but it's far too early to declare anything won or lost.

[Doomulation]

No, and for the reason I stated: Sony isn't going alone at this. Other companies stand to lose as well.
Then it's a big Betamax vs VHS. Two formats battling each other. What else can it be?


According to Wiki, they were part of the original Blue-Ray Disc Association, along with 8 other electronic companies, many of those others being big names in the electronic biz, such as Phillips, Hitachi, and Sharp. Wiki does not say if any one company actually got credit for creating Blue Ray.

But among the other companies that have since joined on: Apple, Dell, HP, TDK, Twentieth Century Fox, Walt Disney, and Warner Bros.
Shrug on that. But I do think Sony is the one that is pushing it hardest. I think.
And I believe HP has gone to HD-DVD as well. Might have to look that up...


Which is what MS, and Sony, are both pushing: use their hardware as a dual-purpose machine. Hell, use their machines to do everything. :)

In the end, it's a very logical move, all things considered. When I first got a PS2, I used it as a DVD player for awhile, because while it wasn't a great DVD player, I don't have a great tv anyways to worry about it. That, and it beat dropping extra cash for a real DVD player, since they still weren't cheap at that point. :)
But in sense, Microsoft is less evil when they offer it as add-on. That means that you can get a very cheap, bad first-generation players for a low sum of money if you have a 360. With Sony, you have to buy their bad first-generation blu-ray player. No choice in the matter.

Actually, if the war keep going on, then I would eventually acquire a hybrid player to play both formats. Not a PS3 and not a HD-DVD add-on... but since you have to pay for the bad first-generation blu-ray player for the PS3... well, bad Sony. Bad.


I'm not saying that those predictions won't come to pass, but it's far too early to declare anything won or lost.
Aye, we'll see.

[smegforbrain]

Then it's a big Betamax vs VHS. Two formats battling each other. What else can it be?

In a sense, yes, it is. I was just saying it wasn't quite that simple, as it isn't Sony vs the World this time. :)


But I do think Sony is the one that is pushing it hardest. I think.

Yeah, and when you get down to it, MS is now officially pushing HD-DVD hardest for that side as well because of the add-on.

The writer of that article basically said that the HD-DVD add-on will make HD-DVD. I think we all here on this forum pretty much agreed: the next generation of DVD formats was not necessary at this point in time. So, how many XBox 360 owners are going to buy this add-on for HD-DVD movies? It's hard to say at this point. XBox isn't going to put out games on HD-DVD discs, and I'm not sure anybody is truly clamoring for movies on Blue Ray or HD-DVD.

Oh, and I think HP may be supporting both formats. Or something. Yeah... attrition. Ugh.



But in sense, Microsoft is less evil when they offer it as add-on. That means that you can get a very cheap, bad first-generation players for a low sum of money if you have a 360. With Sony, you have to buy their bad first-generation blu-ray player. No choice in the matter.

I'm not really sure that makes them less evil in the end. MS is still just plain evil. ;)



Actually, if the war keep going on, then I would eventually acquire a hybrid player to play both formats.

That seems to be the way to go. When it comes down to it, having your video game console as your primary DVD player (or blue-ray/hd player) is probably A Not So Great Idea.

But if somebody can put a good hybrid player out there, they'll have hit the jackpot, because I am not about to choose one format or the other for movies until I'm forced to (ie, they stop making DVD's).

5 years ago, who would've thought that within a few short years the video game industry would be deciding the next generation of digital media for *everybody*? :)

[WhiteX]

Not this again...:(

[smegforbrain]

Not this again...:(

Yes!

Again, and again, and again, and... what was I doing?

[zaba_3]

Boring Doom, I know you love anti-sony campaigns but who gives a F.

I prefer Blu-ray over HD-DVD anyways, as I will only be using it for the PC (as backup medium) whenever it comes out...

Question is who doesnt love those anti-sony campaigns? :P

[Doomulation]

Boohoo. Blu-ray seems to be doing bad.
IGN: Blu-ray Sony's Downfall? (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/749/749868p1.html)
Tech Digest: Consumers favour HD DVD over Blu-ray due to negative perception of Sony (http://techdigest.tv/2006/12/consumers_favou.html)
Blu-ray drowning in negative buzz: report (http://www.winbeta.org/comments.php?shownews=5646&catid=1)
Gamers Love PS3, Hate Blu-Ray (http://www.winbeta.org/comments.php?shownews=5650&catid=1)

And these, my favorite quotes!

"Sony, on the other hand, has a track record of starting format wars, and losing them too. Beta, mini-disc, umd, and atrac have all been huge flops, but they just don't seem to learn their lesson because they're too greedy." -- phishbook.com
The greedy part is my favorite :happy:


"There are other issues too; the sheer arrogance of Sony is incredible, and puts me off wanting to support them." -- avforums.com
How else to describe Sony? :P


"What if you don't give a damn about watching movies on your game console? What if you prefer to buy a separate HD player? That's the rub. Sony forces you to buy Blu-ray. MS doesn't force you to buy HD-DVD. It's about giving the consumer options. Bargain my arse, as a consumer I prefer options." -- forums.adventuregamers.com
Quote of the day!

[Beaner(lui)]

I'm too poor anyways,But i Have a Lot Of Free SH*T!
ALOT, So It doesn't Matter...

[Doomulation]

This is where the price factor comes in. BD is more expensive than HD-DVD.

[t0rek]

Yeah yeah, Blu-ray sucks, HD-DVD is better blah blah blah

[revl8er]

The only thing those links say is that the blue ray adds $150 to the price tag, so it should be hated. That is no reason to hate something, for all you know, blue ray could be the top medium in the next few years. Even when dvds were first released, the players were expensive as hell. Its to be expected when something is first made, there is no stopping that. Just give the damn thing a chance and don't base your opinion completely on price.

[Doomulation]

No, it mentions that Sony is arrogant, does not give you a choice with Blu-ray, that people hate the Blu-ray in PS3, that it is expensive, that it causes manufacturing problems, that people are skeptic against Sony since they've lost numerous format wars and of course, Sony's brand is taking damage.
And besides, me like many others, base my opinions that Sony is backing the format--and that Sony invented the thing,
Furthermore, Sony has at this moment chosen to use old MPEG2 technology (which is feasible due to the bigger space; but then I must ask what the heck they want the space for?) which is inferior to the newer, MPEG4 AVC or VC1 (Microsoft's stupid video compression technology).
On a side note, just because Blu-ray is so new is a big factor that the PS3 will have lots of problems by incoporating it. Which again, will probably bite back at Sony later on.

[Beaner(lui)]

It Always Comes Back, To Bite you in The Ass...

[Stezo2k]

I do think bluray stands a chance this time with the movie companies backing it but the price of the media/players are bloody pricey. If it dies it'll probably because of that

I'm not sure what the quality of HDDVD is like but i've seen bluray in action (in 1080p) and I wasnt impressed. Might of been the movie but looking quite close the picture was grainy

[Hexidecimal]

I'm going to bank on sony's track record of formats and say that HD-DVD is going to win.

Excuse me a moment though, I need to switch my Betamax tape to the next in this trilogy, and then later I plan to listen to my mini disc player, or maybe watch a UMD movie... Oh wait... No. I don't.

[Doomulation]

Might of been the movie but looking quite close the picture was grainy

Might have been because of the old MPEG2 standard. MPEG4 (at least AVC) allows the user of custom matrixes, which can boost quality significantly. Dunno about VC1, though.

[Toasty]

Actually MPEG-2 also supports custom quantization matrices, but it is still only about half as efficient as MPEG-4 AVC, so, depending on the length of the content, MPEG-2 could still account for the loss of quality. (That HD content does love to gobble up precious Mb's. ;))

[Doomulation]

I do wonder what they want all that space for...
If they use MPEG2 compression technique, of course they want more space, because they're using an inferior compression technology that results in lower quality... but if they use MPEG4 AVC or VC1, then what? Even HD content won't gobble up all that space and they probably won't fill it all with extras or goodies.

All formats have a cap for bitrate, which when exceeded, does not add anything more to quality. Say that the limit is 1000 kbps. If you compress at 2000 kbps, the quality wouldn't be better than 1000 kbps, so essentially it's a waste of space.

[Doomulation]

Sony will not allow porn on Blu-ray? (http://www.i4u.com/article7621.html) Actually, that would be really nice, but will it help them win the war? I would think not. VHS had a huge advantage when the porn industry supported VHS instead of Betamax. Sony, are you thinking straight?
Also, the porn industry seem to believe HD-DVD is superior to Blu-ray (http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/11/ces2007_hddvd_blu_ray/).


Pink Visual heavily complained about the fact that Blu-ray discs cannot be replicated and a range of other studios, who did not want to be mentioned by name indicated that the cost of going with Blu-ray cancels the technology as a possible HD solution for this industry. "Only bigger studios can afford Blu-ray, and even then it's not economical," we were told.

Oops. Another hand up for HD-DVD. I'm leaning towards HD-DVD winning now. Anyone else?

[Cyberman]

Well someone (LG electronics) is introducing a dual format reading disk uint. It can read blue or HD-DVD. There are some issues with both formats.

As for porn on the BluRay. I think the key note is cost, if it costs too much to produce in the porn industries eyes. Then likely it is too expensive period. I'm not a Sony fan, nor am I fan of HD-DVD. Most everyone who has reviewed the formats find that neither are compelling for them to switch too and are a big yawn. One reviewer said "the run away train that was christmas 2006 came through and went bye to the new high definition formats, do you think people will want to see MORE directors comments on a movie than is available already? Why would I want to go to the internet to get more?" Surprise surprise! It's currently economically unfeasable HD-DVD is more likely to win if it meets the economic needs. Nothing like a format without a cause. 50G of space (max?) is too much for the majority of games even. How much crap can people want to listen or watch? There is a limit to how long I play a game. 2 hours (unless castle wolfenstien then that's different :) ).

Backing up data on either format is also impractical. Magnetic tape sadly is far more durable due to the decay of the dyes they use in the media when exposed to UV light. (Sunlight or flourescent lamps). The lasers are being pushed to there limits as well. I think what they need to consider is durability of the media instead of how much they can sell it for. If blue ray for example was considered stable for 30 years they might be able to make big money on the high end scale of things. Granted you would need 20 to 40 disks for typical archival backup instead of 1 or 2 tapes, I'm sure they can come up with something for this (hey disc backup with label printer and tyvek sleeve stuffer!)

Cyb

[Doomulation]

Well someone (LG electronics) is introducing a dual format reading disk uint. It can read blue or HD-DVD. There are some issues with both formats.
Yes, heard about that... while it helps customers purchase a machine from where they can watch either format, unfortunately, it doesn't help the studios to choose a format to stick to.

As for the rest... I'm just hoping Sony fails. Again. Much like they seem to. With the race of compression techniques, we won't ever need 50 GB+ of storage. And I doubt we're going to see that much longer movies. Maybe the could put TV series or something, more of them on fewer discs, yet the price would rise, yes? I agree those other features are practically useless, but the main point is that the discs will contain HD material. And when we get enough HD TVs, then these new movies will be the new DVD movies. Of course, that's when we get large HD TVs and the prices fall severely.

[omnislash124]

I really don't support one or the other, since I really don't see the need to switch yet when a Dual-Layered DVD will take care of most movie viewing needs.

VHS -> DVD did see a need because the picture quality was SIGNIFICANTLY better and it was much more handy carrying around DVDs than, by comparison, big black boxes. Sure it was expensive there, but it was SIGNIFICANTLY better, so that's why it was adopted.

On the other hand, DVD -> ??? does not have much of a pull since only the videophiles will be able to see many differences, especially while watching the movie and not freeze-framing a screen to see the details. I'd do a survey, but I don't own either player.

[Doomulation]

Not true, so far as I know. You need an HD TV to see difference, though. And, like it or not, not everyone has.
Besides, to me VHS -> DVD wasn't that big of a leap. Quality is about as good on either but DVD doesn't suffer from age as much as VHS. This is another VHS -> DVD leap I think...

[Cyberman]

Actually this isn't a transition of going to better technology.
That's the carrot. What it really is about is going from analog where they have little control of how what the end system does to digital. Where they have C.R.A.P. (http://news.zdnet.com/html/z/wb/6035707.html) (Video here (http://news.zdnet.com/2036-2_22-6035707.html)) to control you.

It's a lot more about control than about nice pictures. :D

Cyb

[Doomulation]

Isn't it always? The more digital we get, the greater control everyone has, which is better for many parts, for companies, authorities and consumers alike. Though DRM is a bad thing that's evolving due to the digital movement.

[Allnatural]

Besides, to me VHS -> DVD wasn't that big of a leap. Quality is about as good on either...
Seriously? :huh:

[Cyberman]

Seriously though, why are people supporting there C.R.A.P. ? People buy it without thinking. Microsoft has been sued countless times for the same thing, and yet people assume "We'll be fine" right.

Anyhow VHS was good for it's time. It worked and was a nice recording medium. Now they can control things. It's up to the individual but, frankly most people don't think about it. Then they whine when they've wasted all that money in ... C.R.A.P.

LOL
Cyb

[Doomulation]

Seriously? :huh:

Yup, seriously.
Though that was a long time ago. I haven't seen any VHS movie in ages now.

[ScottJC]

Yup, seriously.
Though that was a long time ago. I haven't seen any VHS movie in ages now.
You need to get your eyes checked then because theres a huge difference between dvd and vhs quality. Triple the video resolution for one thing, you need a new tv if they look the same.

[Cyberman]

I think you haven't had the bad taste the Beta years left in ones mouth Doom. To be simple about it, HD DVD and Blue Ray are the revisit of the VHS versus Beta. Unfortunately this round it looks like there both different versions of Beta.

I'm trying to keep things in perspective for people. A lot of times if you only go by specs companies publish etc. you won't see the big picture. Just like Sony's Beta, was better, the problem was it was very costly in the end especially in terms of production. Note porn people used mostly VHS because of the cost of using beta for production. HD DVD may be the winner in that sense only. I don't see either format, really useful. I can see the difference, but what about it? Will seeing someone being cut apart in hi resolution be better? Oh yeah look at those bits fly! High End HD is (1080p or 1920x1080) is not theater resolution (35mm 4:3 is 4kx3K 35mm 16x9 is 4kx2.3k 70mm 16:9 is 8kx4.6k) k not 1000 as in 1024. However you really don't NEED it, I also noticed they they have purposefully not enhanced the existing DVD encodings to MP4 (264). The newer video compression gives 2 to 3 times the amount of data at the same resolution of MP2 (used on DVD's) which means you can cram an HD version of a movie easily on existing DVD (single layer might be pushing it if you add all the extra 'content' but 2 layer easily).

Down to the basic elements here, the HD video format is fine (hey hook your computer to your TV again), however in perspective the HD media being pushed is not needed nor does it appear to be wanted. Who wants 10 hours of HD commentary on a movie you are going to watch? I hope no one is that bored!

Why say this? I believe they are making an expensive mistake trying to force people to buy new equipement, they are pulling a Microsoft. These days TV has a smaller audience (and it's shrinking), the tech improvement won't make for more people watching it to begin with my thinking. My mothers generation (heh she's a lot older than you think), was addicted to TV but these days.. what are you spending most of your time and money on? TV stuff? not me!

Cyb

[Doomulation]

You need to get your eyes checked then because theres a huge difference between dvd and vhs quality. Triple the video resolution for one thing, you need a new tv if they look the same.
Think what you want. T'was a long time ago, though.


I think you haven't had the bad taste the Beta years left in ones mouth Doom. To be simple about it, HD DVD and Blue Ray are the revisit of the VHS versus Beta. Unfortunately this round it looks like there both different versions of Beta....

I never monitored the VHS vs Betamax war. Wasn't into it at that time, so anyway....
I will agree with you that more space for movies is a waste, but for computer needs, these media will be the new stars as bigger capacity media for PC is always welcome...