Is she hot?

[Allnatural]

Well?

[Davemc]

I'm not gonna be a cunt, so I'm gonna say yes. <It's a bloke>

[Allnatural]

I should've asked, is (s)he hot? Yikes. :crazy:

http://www.miriamofficial.com/article.html?number=3

Dude looks like a lady. I'm committing suicide...:corpse:

[2fast4u]

jesus fucking christ

i will probably never look at women the same way again :corpse:

[DuDe]

MOTHERFUCK, that's horrible! Do I feel sorry for the guys on the show or what, that's a lifetime of questioning your sexual preference right there.

[aprentice]

MOTHERFUCK, that's horrible! Do I feel sorry for the guys on the show or what, that's a lifetime of questioning your sexual preference right there.

I hope the people who were tricked win the lawsuit, thats pretty down right dirty what they did. Those guys are gonna need a psychiatrist now

:x :puke:

[Allnatural]

owned, fucking owned!

[Davemc]

Yeah, saw it all on TV, press quote on my first post. ;)

[Gorxon]

Gah, please post links instead of pics...

...so I dont have to see those horrible pics everytime I check this thread.

[Talas]

Come on guys! To be honest, I wanted to ask "Aint that a guy?" the moment I saw the second pic. There was a quizo somewhere on the net, showing 20 or so pics and you had to say whether it was a "guy or gal". I had 17 of 20 right. Still... thats a horrible rate! :-)

[sheik124]

holy fucking god, that is sick and wrong, and apprentice, can't help but say i agree, they should sue WHETHER OR NOT sky1 airs the program. god that is so fucking sick *walks away barfing*
omg happy 301 posts for me

[deesse]

well done, but her(his) face still like a guy :plain:

[AlphaWolf]

About the only sign I can see in "it" is that his hips aren't very wide in proportion to the waist. I wont lie, I couldn't tell the difference at first. I'll tell you what though, if that happened to me, the first thing I would do is pound a fist into his pretty little face and make sure he never regains consciousness, and I wouldn't feel the slightest bit of remorse about it either.

I think its just plain wrong that liberals expect you to recognize somebody by their transgendered sex. I have said it numerous times, I think crossdressing, sex change surgery, or whatever that crap they do should be illegal and considered fraud, and anybody who falls victim to it should be allowed to seek civil restitution. Being a homo is one thing, but transgendered deception crosses way too many lines to be tolerable.

[ScottJC]

I think using that on TV should be illegal and "Miriam" should've got a fist and a kicking off the guys.

[gokuss4]

...i had a feeling he was a man when i first came in this thread... my penis never lies to me... but i will say that at first i thought that he was a she. fucking sick ass shit!! makes me want to cut off the guys balls and shove them up his ass... then those guys can sue him.

[vampireuk]

Once again alpha bringing politics into something that has nothing to do with politics :D

[sytaylor]

Reality TV stooped to yet another new low, and again I didn't watch it. Seems the rest of the universe did though :/

[vampireuk]

Aside from the UK since its not been aired here :p

[rcgamer]

About the only sign I can see in "it" is that his hips aren't very wide in proportion to the waist. I wont lie, I couldn't tell the difference at first. I'll tell you what though, if that happened to me, the first thing I would do is pound a fist into his pretty little face and make sure he never regains consciousness, and I wouldn't feel the slightest bit of remorse about it either.

I think its just plain wrong that liberals expect you to recognize somebody by their transgendered sex. I have said it numerous times, I think crossdressing, sex change surgery, or whatever that crap they do should be illegal and considered fraud, and anybody who falls victim to it should be allowed to seek civil restitution. Being a homo is one thing, but transgendered deception crosses way too many lines to be tolerable.

I agree wholeheartedly.
BTW i just now read your sig , those jack handy things on snl crack my ass up.

[Talas]

Sorry guys, but I dont agree at all with the majority of you. If you liked the persons looks and you wanted to kiss the person (like the guy on the photo) then its your own fault if afterwards you see that the person is actually a guy. Sorry, but resorting to any sort of violence again her/him is absolutely wrong. It just shows us that alot of people still have homophobia.

Hell, even a friend of mine once started kissing a... well not important ;).... though all his pals told him that he/she looked like a guy. And what happenend? He put his hand into her/his trousers and voila! had something in his hand he never wanted to hold. Hey guys! its his own fault. Of course I too would feel deceived but on the other hand the places where I go arent normally filled with transsexuals. And even if they were, and I was deceived, I dont think I would want to hit that guy or something.

Puh! Good thing that I love mediterranean beauties, its hard for a guy to look like one of those? ;-)

[vampireuk]

Nah I'd still kick the shit out of him if I was in that position

[gokuss4]

Sorry guys, but I dont agree at all with the majority of you. If you liked the persons looks and you wanted to kiss the person (like the guy on the photo) then its your own fault if afterwards you see that the person is actually a guy. Sorry, but resorting to any sort of violence again her/him is absolutely wrong. It just shows us that alot of people still have homophobia.

Hell, even a friend of mine once started kissing a... well not important ;).... though all his pals told him that he/she looked like a guy. And what happenend? He put his hand into her/his trousers and voila! had something in his hand he never wanted to hold. Hey guys! its his own fault. Of course I too would feel deceived but on the other hand the places where I go arent normally filled with transsexuals. And even if they were, and I was deceived, I dont think I would want to hit that guy or something.

Puh! Good thing that I love mediterranean beauties, its hard for a guy to look like one of those? ;-)
Some people that replied in this thread might not be homophobic... but I'm sure they, like me, or anyone else in this damn forum, hates to be deceived, especially like that. Homophobes are people that are afraid to even be around homosexuals and don't want anything to do with them. Men that are kissing a woman and then find out they were kissing a man instead and then feel deceived and pissed is called being straight.

[sytaylor]

Something about Miriam was a british TV show iirc.

[vampireuk]

My brother is gay, but he doesnt run around pretending to be a woman. Anybody who decieves a person like that deserves a good kicking.

[AlphaWolf]

Sorry guys, but I dont agree at all with the majority of you. If you liked the persons looks and you wanted to kiss the person (like the guy on the photo) then its your own fault if afterwards you see that the person is actually a guy.

Thats like saying its your own fault if somebody lies to you.

[2fast4u]

I think its just plain wrong that liberals expect you to recognize somebody by their transgendered sex. I have said it numerous times, I think crossdressing, sex change surgery, or whatever that crap they do should be illegal and considered fraud, and anybody who falls victim to it should be allowed to seek civil restitution. Being a homo is one thing, but transgendered deception crosses way too many lines to be tolerable.

right ... the government forcing reactionary moral values of individuals on the whole of society is just what we need. if a guy turns into a woman, big fucking deal. there is nothing in there that would hurt somebody else.

and if the opposite would be considered illegal as well, they would have to arrest demi moore, which could be a good idea even.

[AlphaWolf]

How about this then, if any intimate contact or relationship is initiated by a crossdresser/transexual, or by somebody else onto a crossdresser/transexual, then the crossdressing/transgender party must immediately notify the other party of their natural borne sex, and failure to do so can result in civil penalties and liabilities (as opposed to criminal.)

I'd call it: "The right to know" act.

BTW, I remember seeing a talk show once (I think it was maury) where several years ago some lady was legally married to what she thought was a man for two years. You think punishment for something like that isn't warranted?

[2fast4u]

its seems like a nice idea but on what grounds would you punish someone for "changing" his/her gender aside from the fact that you dont want people to do it? not even thinking about possible punishment.

in my opinion that would just open the door for homophobics and such trying to nail people on the grounds of their sexuality.

[euphoria]

This exactly the right thing for all those RealityTV shitheads out there. This is the next best thing to whole RealityTV fading off.

I HATE REALITYTV!

Damn those svenska jävlarna...

[AlphaWolf]

its seems like a nice idea but on what grounds would you punish someone for "changing" his/her gender aside from the fact that you dont want people to do it?

Simple, they are committing fraud (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fraud). If you word it like I just mentioned, then the act of crossdressing or having a sex change itself would not be illegal. (And I personally could care less if they only did this as long as they do not involve me in it) What would be illegal is engaging in intimate behavior while under this false pretense.

When I run for president, this will be in my campaign speech :D

[2fast4u]

Simple, they are committing fraud (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fraud). If you word it like I just mentioned, then the act of crossdressing or having a sex change itself would not be illegal. (And I personally could care less if they only did this as long as they do not involve me in it) What would be illegal is engaging in intimate behavior while under this false pretense.

cool, i can agree with that.

[Clements]

Yeah, they should all annonce, "By the way, I'm a transexual" to all their partners at the first given opportunity for the benefit of their partner since it is very important issue in terms of loving another person.

No, even better, they should all wear a T-Shirt with "I'm a transexual" on it for the benefit of everybody who would want to be a prespective partner, since it matters a lot. It's not as if this transexual deserves to be treated as a woman.



[/sarcasm]

And yes, if I had an intimate, loving relationship with a woman, and then say, a year down the line said, "I'm a transexual", you know what, I wouldn't care! Some people these days, so prejudiced.

[2fast4u]

And yes, if I had an intimate, loving relationship with a woman, and then say, a year down the line said, "I'm a transexual", you know what, I wouldn't care!

you sure that statement isnt a little too bold?

[Allnatural]

And yes, if I had an intimate, loving relationship with a woman, and then say, a year down the line said, "I'm a transexual", you know what, I wouldn't care! Some people these days, so prejudiced.
Wow. So in a relationship, your motto is: "open and honest...eventually" :huh:

[Clements]

I would empathize with the person and realise that it is a difficult issue and forgive her for not telling me if I actually loved her. The only thing that would really be an issue would be that we couldn't have children of our own.

Individuals who undergo the operations go through psychological testing to see if they really do feel that they have been born in the wrong body and the operation is just to correct it. They are NOT perverts or anything, that is an ignorant perspective. It's not homosexual, since the person effectively has a similar brain to a woman and not a man. (look some scientific websites regarding this, something about gender-defining nodes or something, can't remember exactly what it is)

Honesty is important obviously but you can understand why someone would hold this back. A bit like if I was a man born with no penis (for the record, I'm not without a penis :P), you would go around telling everybody about it, or would you? Would you be commiting fraud for not revealing a biological condition such as this? It's about the same thing.

I was just shocked at the hatred of these individuals being threated like sex offenders to be named and shamed, that's all.

[vampireuk]

The thing in this case is however he/she knew she/he/it/thing/urgh my eyes/the goggles they do nothing/man beast knew she was decieving these people, and for money.

[rcgamer]

(to clements)
but in this situation they are using their transexuality for the sole purpose of humiliating these guys. and things like that are easy to say when you arent actually faced with the situation.

[Clements]

I obviously don't agree with that stunt intent on humiliation, but in a real life situation as I described, she would not deserve to be fined or put in prison for what is merely holding back information of a biological condition.

[2fast4u]

the problem is sex is usually about the biological condition, whether you prefer sex with the same or other gender. i have a hard time approving of fines as well, but the fraud argument seems interesting when turning to ... prostitution. otherwise i guess there would be no damage on which base you could fine anyway.

so .. in theory, if you pay to have sex with a woman get the woman turns out to be not a biological woman, you didnt get your moneys worth..

[Niggy G]

so .. in theory, if you pay to have sex with a woman get the woman turns out to be not a biological woman, you didnt get your moneys worth..


Thats got to be breaching the sale of goods act, lol

[AlphaWolf]

I obviously don't agree with that stunt intent on humiliation

I don't have an exact statistic, but I would say that in the majority of these cases, humiliation is what will occur. What I said above would not make it a crime unless the victim decides to press charges (this is how most civil violations work.)

IIRC its been medically proven that you can cure this problem psychologically. I don't understand why they are permitted to undergo the sex change surgery, in males especially. The fact is, no matter how much you change the bits and peices in the groin, every cell in your body is programmed to be a specific sex, and there is no changing this, period. The male body requires certain amounts of natural testosterone, which are mostly secreted by the testes. Without this, you are far more prone to undergo psychological depression, which leads to a shorter lifespan, etc.

[minkster]

[QUOTE=gokuss4]...i had a feeling he was a man when i first came in this thread... my penis never lies to me... QUOTE]

god damnit my penis lied! im afraid to look at women the same way again :gunman:

[Davemc]

Aside from the UK since its not been aired here :p

There's Something About Miriam was on Sky One here about a month ago, it had about 8 episodes to the series every Sunday. (It was on after Dream Team
:pacman: )

[Talas]

Just showed the pics to some friends. One of them said "GOSH! What a gal, oh I would like to be her tanga." ;-) My oh my, should have photographed the face after he saw that it was a guy.

[Alchy]

IIRC its been medically proven that you can cure this problem psychologically. I don't understand why they are permitted to undergo the sex change surgery, in males especially.
Why do you assume it's a "problem"? If someone wants to have a sex change, feels that they need it, and they've got the cash, why not? Leave them to it. It's none of your damn business. Yeah I'd be pissed if I went with a girl that turned out to be a guy, but it's nothing to start legal action over. What is it about Americans and suing people?


I remember seeing a talk show once (I think it was maury) where several years ago some lady was legally married to what she thought was a man for two years. You think punishment for something like that isn't warranted?Oh God... Anyone who gets fucking married to a man who turns out to be a woman deserves anything they get ;)

[Davemc]

Although he's sounding like a cunt, I'd have to agree with Alpha.

[deesse]

[QUOTE=gokuss4]...i had a feeling he was a man when i first came in this thread... my penis never lies to me... QUOTE]

god damnit my penis lied! im afraid to look at women the same way again :gunman:


yah, you must considering women again ;)

[GogoTheMimic]

By proxy I assumed it was a man, why you ask? I usually don't see "Hey, look at this hot chick!" threads on forums unless there is something wrong with the picture. Had the picture just been shown to me somewhere though, I would've thought it was a chick. *nod*

[t0rek]

I'm just wondering if Allnatural intentions at the time he made this thread were just post something funny or make a political and intense moral debate... :(

[zAlbee]

IIRC its been medically proven that you can cure this problem psychologically.
"proven", "cure"? Those are pretty strong words for describing something as complicated and unknown as the human mind. Also saying that it is a problem needing to be fixed is a pretty glaring assumption.



The fact is, no matter how much you change the bits and peices in the groin, every cell in your body is programmed to be a specific sex, and there is no changing this, period.
Ever heard of mutations? As you may know, gender is determined by the two sex chromosomes provided in the sperm and egg cell:

XX = female
XY = male

Gametogenesis isn't always perfect; once in a while the sex chromosomes don't separate after replication (nondisjunction) and extras result, e.g.:

XXY = Klinefelter syndrome - this makes you a sterile male with smaller testes and enlarged breasts + other feminine charateristics.

And yes you are right, your sex is programmed into every one of your cells, it just so happens that in this case the sex is not well-defined.



The male body requires certain amounts of natural testosterone, which are mostly secreted by the testes. Without this, you are far more prone to undergo psychological depression, which leads to a shorter lifespan, etc.
yeah, probably lots of side effects if you remove them. Incidentally, lack of testosterone is a major factor in developing female secondary sex characteristics, which might actually be desirable for the patient undergoing surgery.

[AlphaWolf]

Oh God... Anyone who gets fucking married to a man who turns out to be a woman deserves anything they get ;)

That is comparable to saying that if a woman dresses in provocative clothing, then she deserves to be raped.


"proven", "cure"? Those are pretty strong words for describing something as complicated and unknown as the human mind. Also saying that it is a problem needing to be fixed is a pretty glaring assumption.

This has always been described as a medical condition. Isn't the undoing of a medical condition called a cure?



Ever heard of mutations? As you may know, gender is determined by the two sex chromosomes provided in the sperm and egg cell:

Actually the sperm alone determines this :)



Gametogenesis isn't always perfect; once in a while the sex chromosomes don't separate after replication (nondisjunction) and extras result, e.g.:

XXY = Klinefelter syndrome - this makes you a sterile male with smaller testes and enlarged breasts + other feminine charateristics.


Interesting, never heard of that before, it sounds a bit like down syndrome, which is nondisjunction in the 21st chromosome pair as opposed to the 23rd pair. I don't believe that this would be the cause of the problem that most experience though, as if its anything like down syndrome, it would be fewer than 1 in 1000 births (much fewer, because the 23rd chromosome pair disjoins far easier than the 21st as its significantly larger.)

As for the rest, I doubt any type of mutation has anything to do with it. Thus far nobody has identified any "gay gene" mutation, which has been well sought after. The only other possible explanation would be a psychological disorder. Biology is a very new science though, so its hard to tell.



yeah, probably lots of side effects if you remove them. Incidentally, lack of testosterone is a major factor in developing female secondary sex characteristics, which might actually be desirable for the patient undergoing surgery.

So we treat the problem by creating new ones?

[Talas]

This has always been described as a medical condition. Isn't the undoing of a medical condition called a cure?

It is of course. But you cant say that the wish to change gender is a medical problem. That would be same as if you would say that being homosexual was a medical problem too, which it isnt.


Actually the sperm alone determines this :)

Are you sure? Then how do you explain the fact that its possible to create an embryo via two egg cells? Without the sperm?

[Clements]

That's because haploid Egg cells (oocyte) only contain X chromosomes whereas male sperm can carry an X OR Y chromosome, so Alphawolf is right in saying that the male determines the sex of the offspring. That also explains why the ratio of males:females is almost 50:50.

[AlphaWolf]

It is of course. But you cant say that the wish to change gender is a medical problem. That would be same as if you would say that being homosexual was a medical problem too, which it isnt.

It used to be described as one: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34943


That also explains why the ratio of males:females is almost 50:50.

Females actually have a 4% advantage, because the female sperm are larger and can survive longer (but they also move slower) :P

[pj64er]

Females actually have a 4% advantage, because the female sperm are larger and can survive longer (but they also move slower) :P

cool. someone should make a racing game :P

[AlphaWolf]

I know this will piss a lot of people off (its what I do, deal with it :P) but I personally class all of these sex fetish things in the same category. Some people like dead bodies, animals, and little boys, even gay people often look down upon transexuals, but IMO they are all in the same. All of them have been treated with psychological therapy in far more than one case, and if one should be considered a medical problem then all of them should. But, provided they keep me out of it, I guess if its out of sight its out of mind *shrug*

[Flash]

I know this will piss a lot of people off (its what I do, deal with it :P) but I personally class all of these sex fetish things in the same category. Some people like dead bodies, animals, and little boys, even gay people often look down upon transexuals, but IMO they are all in the same .
They all are perverts. I don't understand why some people consider gays "more normal" than zoophiles or fetishists (fetishism is probably less dangerous type of perversion but.... :D)

[deesse]

I know this will piss a lot of people off (its what I do, deal with it :P) but I personally class all of these sex fetish things in the same category. Some people like dead bodies, animals, and little boys, even gay people often look down upon transexuals, but IMO they are all in the same. All of them have been treated with psychological therapy in far more than one case, and if one should be considered a medical problem then all of them should. But, provided they keep me out of it, I guess if its out of sight its out of mind *shrug*


dead bodies, ... don't want to imagine that :plain:

[zAlbee]

This has always been described as a medical condition. Isn't the undoing of a medical condition called a cure?
Yes, but I am doubting whether they have actually been cured. The problem likely arose out of a combination of physical (if not genetic, then certainly hormonal) and psychological factors, so only psychology alone as a cure seems sketchy.



Actually the sperm alone determines this :)Of course.



Are you sure? Then how do you explain the fact that its possible to create an embryo via two egg cells? Without the sperm?
These would always be female (XX). :flowers:



Interesting, never heard of that before, it sounds a bit like down syndrome, which is nondisjunction in the 21st chromosome pair as opposed to the 23rd pair. I don't believe that this would be the cause of the problem that most experience though, as if its anything like down syndrome, it would be fewer than 1 in 1000 births (much fewer, because the 23rd chromosome pair disjoins far easier than the 21st as its significantly larger.)
XXY occurs every 1 in 2000 births, about half that of down syndrome. With 6 billion people on earth, that makes up quite a number.



As for the rest, I doubt any type of mutation has anything to do with it. Thus far nobody has identified any "gay gene" mutation, which has been well sought after. The only other possible explanation would be a psychological disorder. Biology is a very new science though, so its hard to tell.Agreed, I don't think they have found any physical basis for homosexuality either. But there are enough physiological interactions happening that you can't completely rule it out. Hormones have the annoying property of being able to reach all cells in the body (few exceptions). And they can have completely different effects on different organs, thanks to different receptors on each cell surface. Bio is really a pain in the ass. :doh:



So we treat the problem by creating new ones?
I am simply saying that if the goal is to trasnform from transgendered to female, then surgery is a feasble way to come close to that goal. It's their choice if they feel the potential side effects are better than living with both testes and breasts or whatnot. I frankly don't care what decision they make, as I don't believe it is fatal.

[vampireuk]

They all are perverts. I don't understand why some people consider gays "more normal" than zoophiles or fetishists (fetishism is probably less dangerous type of perversion but.... :D)

I'd like to see you call my brother a pervert, in the 3 seconds before he breaks your teeth :P

[Talas]

They all are perverts. I don't understand why some people consider gays "more normal" than zoophiles or fetishists (fetishism is probably less dangerous type of perversion but.... :D)

´course its normal, there are even gay animals. Why shouldnt it be normal to be gay? Fetishism is something else though.

[AlphaWolf]

Yes, but I am doubting whether they have actually been cured. The problem likely arose out of a combination of physical (if not genetic, then certainly hormonal) and psychological factors, so only psychology alone as a cure seems sketchy.

They have :D (or at least to the best of our knowledge, but then thats all that you can say about any given psychological condition) http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34943

I personally doubt that there is any physical (genetic) cause for this. I believe that it probably is hormone related, but like many chemicals in the body, hormones will be secreted more or less than they should be depending on the state of mind of the subject, (for example, from different types of stress) which can cause the problems at hand.

But, the absolute truth at this point is: nobody knows.


Why shouldnt it be normal to be gay? Fetishism is something else though.

IMO fetish and gay are the same (e.g. how some men can't get off unless they are touching a womans' feet,) but like I said, out of sight out of mind. If my weird neighbor can keep his foot fetish to himself, why can't another keep his homo fetish to himself? (in other words, I like it that nobody arranges foot fetish pride parades)

[Talas]

Yea Alpha, I do understand what you mean. I also dont like this in-your-face attitude of many gay and lesbian people. But I try to tolerate it, after all, they have been (and still are) discriminated for their sexual life. And I still dont think that being gay and having a fetish is the same. After all, its normal if you go into a park with your girlfriend and kiss her. Why should that be more normal then a guy kissing a guy?

[sytaylor]

I know this will piss a lot of people off (its what I do, deal with it :P) but I personally class all of these sex fetish things in the same category. Some people like dead bodies, animals, and little boys, even gay people often look down upon transexuals, but IMO they are all in the same. All of them have been treated with psychological therapy in far more than one case, and if one should be considered a medical problem then all of them should. But, provided they keep me out of it, I guess if its out of sight its out of mind *shrug*

The difference is a fetish can manifest itself at any point in life. Someone can be completley not interested in something until a trigger awakens their interest usually by exposure. Homosexuality and other gender disorders (i've named them as such because they limit the human ability to survive therefore its an evolutionary handicap), differ by being awakened at puberty (yet perhaps not realised until early adulthood.)

[sir_key]

i'm bi, i'm a little bit of a foot fetish and i think that chic is hot

[AlphaWolf]

The difference is a fetish can manifest itself at any point in life. Someone can be completley not interested in something until a trigger awakens their interest usually by exposure.

AFAIK the same thing can happen with homo fetishes. On bill o'reilly, some guy was saying that he knew he was gay when he was 6, somebody else said 32.


i'm bi, i'm a little bit of a foot fetish

Was it really necessary to say that?

[Talas]

The difference is a fetish can manifest itself at any point in life. Someone can be completley not interested in something until a trigger awakens their interest usually by exposure. Homosexuality and other gender disorders (i've named them as such because they limit the human ability to survive therefore its an evolutionary handicap), differ by being awakened at puberty (yet perhaps not realised until early adulthood.)

Ahm, the thing with the evolutionary handicap doesnt count. If that was so you couldnt use a condome without being a fetishist. After all, when you use one you also cant make kids, same goes for blowjobs ;-)).

[AlphaWolf]

Ahm, the thing with the evolutionary handicap doesnt count. If that was so you couldnt use a condome without being a fetishist. After all, when you use one you also cant make kids, same goes for blowjobs ;-)).

I think he is mostly referring to a homo that is impotent towards women.

[Talas]

I think he is mostly referring to a homo that is impotent towards women.

What do you mean?

[AlphaWolf]

What do you mean?

Well, most gays react physically the same way towards women that most normal men react towards other men if you get my drift. You can't really make a slam dunk if you can't slam.

[sytaylor]

AFAIK the same thing can happen with homo fetishes. On bill o'reilly, some guy was saying that he knew he was gay when he was 6, somebody else said 32.

True, but that is not indicative of the entire spectrum of homosexuals and would perhaps be the exception to the rule.

[Talas]

@Alpha

Sorry pally, I dont get your point. You cant slamdunk when there is a condome inside the basket either. ;-)

[AlphaWolf]

You cant slamdunk when there is a condome inside the basket either. ;-)

You can always remove that when you want to score though. Impotence just can't score period.

[rcgamer]

´course its normal, there are even gay animals. Why shouldnt it be normal to be gay? Fetishism is something else though.

in this case the word normal would mean what is done by a vast majority of human beings. being gay is in no way normal. if you mean normal in the literal sense of the word. men were born with a penis that is to be used to impregnate a woman through sexual contact. "normal" people know this instinctively at some point in there life. animals are not gay. the dog you see humping another male dog one day will mount a female dog just as quickly the next day(I have never seen a male dog that will only mount another male dog).

what alphawolf is saying is that if homosexuality is a genetic or psychological condition then they have no choice as to wether they are able to have children. but using a condom is a choice made consciously to prevent it. and can be unmade at any time.

[AlphaWolf]

Actually some male mammals will hump other male mammals for the sole intent of showing dominance.

[zorbid]

Huuu, social darwinism at it's worst.

First, I want to say that I find that Miriam story disgusting, as Clements has already pointed it out.



Alpha, and RC gamer, if I understand well, your argumentation is backed up by the assumption that perpetuating life at the personnal scale is good, and that anything that pervents you of transmitting your DNA is bad (mostly, he). Did you ever thought that life is rather pointless... The life on earth will most probably cease to exist some day, anyway...

The main goal of everyone on earth is to try to be happy, not to perpetuate life. Most sexual perversions don't harm anybody anybody, anyway.


About normality:

If you consider that that majority == normality, then blonde people with blue eyes are definitely not normal at an internationnal scale...

If you think that what's natural is good, and that human should take example on the animals, then please turn off your computer immediately, I don't know of any animal besides man that would be able to use a computer the way you do. The natural/artificial distinction is very pretentious. Man is an animal. Humanity is a part of the nature. Every human behaviour is therefore natural.

About straight sex as an instinctive behaviour... You should assist to some fertility consultations at the local hospital, you'd be surprised. Couples who try very hard to make babies either by putting the dick in the ass or the umbilic do exist :)


The medical point of view:

Psychology and neurology are immensely complex, and it won't be fully understood anytime soon. I wouldn't build any ethic theory based on this. It's not because there is no gay gene that genes don't have any impact. There are lots of stuff that rely on polygenic phenomenons.

A few more biological oddities:

- If you make a testosterone injection to a straight female, you will raise her sexual appetite... for men!! (the fact that men think about sex more often than women is related to the amount of testosterone in the blood :) )

- There are people with only one X and no Y, it's a disease called Turner Syndrome. They are sterile woman with stripped ovaries, who never enter puberty unless they are given estrogens.

- Long, but interresting: The androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS). These are people whith an XY genotype and a knocked out androgen receptor. They have working testes that produce tons of testosterone (more than in normal males, because there is a negative feedback loop that implies the same receptor) They look like females (with no uterus), because the expression of the male phenotype during embryogenesis depends on cell response to androgens secreted by the testes during foetal life. Their testes remain inside the abdomen. The testes become quiet during childhood, then awaken at the puberty. They produce, once again tons of testosterone, which is partially turned into estrogens by periferal tissues. The estrogen concentration is similar to what a girl would have, and as a consequence, they have a feminie puberty, except two things: a) they never have periods, since they don't have an uterus. b) they don't have any pubic or axilary hair, sice these depend on androgene sensitivity of hair cells. Jamie Lee Curtis is alleged to suffer from AIS.

- There are XX males as well, although not fertile ..


It's way too easy to medicalise a problem and claim boo, they are not normal doctors say so.. It's not because it homosexuality has been traeted as a disease that it is a disease.


About homosexuality:

Homosexuality is a fact. The problem is not homosexuality in itself, but the way the society, ie most people look at homosexuals. In ancient Greece, it was a perfectly tolerated phenomenon. It isn't the case nowadays in most places in the world, mainly due to the strong influence of the Bible on our culture.

It's not a boolean phenomenon. Some people are "100%" straight, some are 100% homosexual, some are 100% bisexual (no preference, about both sex and love) and some are in between these extremes. This could explain the partial results of the psychotherapy.

Homosexualtiy is not only about sex, it's also about love, and social life. I know a guy who never fell in love for a girl in his whole life. He does fall with boys though. He's human, he longs for couple life and this kind of things. But this is badly judged by a large part of the people.

Homosexualtiy has been medicalised, there have been attempts for decades to "cure" it with little results. Maybe someday there will come an effective way to turn every single gay/lesbian into a straight. Meanwhile what do you do?

Since they are in no way a threat to the society, I don't understand why they would be to blame...





About transexuals.

Provided that transexuals are people with a real sexual identity problem, I think that someone who is surgically transgendered has toi be considered as a sterile person of it's new physical sex.

I don't like ambiguous people, though...

[Clements]

A lot of mature, intelligent thoughts conveyed in a well-written account.

I agree 100% with everything you have said.

[Talas]

in this case the word normal would mean what is done by a vast majority of human beings. being gay is in no way normal. if you mean normal in the literal sense of the word. men were born with a penis that is to be used to impregnate a woman through sexual contact. "normal" people know this instinctively at some point in there life. animals are not gay. the dog you see humping another male dog one day will mount a female dog just as quickly the next day(I have never seen a male dog that will only mount another male dog).

what alphawolf is saying is that if homosexuality is a genetic or psychological condition then they have no choice as to wether they are able to have children. but using a condom is a choice made consciously to prevent it. and can be unmade at any time.

´course its conscious and you can always change it. But still, here in Europe, as many of you know, the birth rate is falling. And I dont see that making no children is an argument against homosexuality, so many heteros also dont make kids and its absolutely ok.

As to the animal thing, I do think that I have read that GAY animals exist. Sheep and apes to be exact. And yes they ONLY mount male pardners.

@Zorbid

Read most of your post and I agree.

@Alphawolf

Actually, in feudal Japan high ranking Buke (Samurai) would only sleep with women for the sole purpose of making kids. Most of the time they were having sex with males because those belonged to the strong sex. (Source: The Hagakure) I wouldnt say at all that being gay (or lesbian) is something that needs a cure. You can read about gay people in ancient rome too. (Not those Metrosexuals, I mean real gay men who were disgusted by the thought of sleeping with a female.)

[rcgamer]

Alpha, and RC gamer, if I understand well, your argumentation is backed up by the assumption that perpetuating life at the personnal scale is good, and that anything that pervents you of transmitting your DNA is bad (mostly, he). Did you ever thought that life is rather pointless... The life on earth will most probably cease to exist some day, anyway...

The main goal of everyone on earth is to try to be happy, not to perpetuate life. Most sexual perversions don't harm anybody anybody, anywa

I never made any such argument. I simply restated what alpha said in order for the other poster to understand his meaning.


About normality:

If you consider that that majority == normality, then blonde people with blue eyes are definitely not normal at an internationnal scale...

first i will say i find the comparison ridiculous ,but , if you read my post i said if you are going by the literal meaning of the word normal , so again i would say yes. if you are using the word as it is defined.


If you think that what's natural is good, and that human should take example on the animals, then please turn off your computer immediately, I don't know of any animal besides man that would be able to use a computer the way you do. The natural/artificial distinction is very pretentious. Man is an animal. Humanity is a part of the nature. Every human behaviour is therefore natural.

i never said any such thing. I simply responded to the post about gay dogs.


About straight sex as an instinctive behaviour... You should assist to some fertility consultations at the local hospital, you'd be surprised. Couples who try very hard to make babies either by putting the dick in the ass or the umbilic do exist .
again read my post, normal people , any adult male or female who thinks you can get pregnant from anal sex is clearly not of normal intelligence.

as for the rest i have no comment as i never argued against homosexuality. but i do agree with alpha as far as the original topic was concerned.

[sir_key]

Was it really necessary to say that?
well first people want to know every gay and bi person and every fetish so they can protect themselves and as soon as you said it nobody wants to hear it :)

[AlphaWolf]

Alpha, and RC gamer, if I understand well, your argumentation is backed up by the assumption that perpetuating life at the personnal scale is good,

No. Usually when I speak about procreation, I am only speaking in terms of natural selection and evolution.



and that anything that pervents you of transmitting your DNA is bad

Yes. Natural selection basically means that any gene that can't perpetuate itself will be selectively removed.



Did you ever thought that life is rather pointless... The life on earth will most probably cease to exist some day, anyway...

That is really moving into a religious area beyond the reach of science, which I usually am not interested in. (mainly because its nothing but assumption, and when you assume, you are making an ass of u and me :D )



The main goal of everyone on earth is to try to be happy, not to perpetuate life.

Every gene in your body will disagree. The entire purpose of your existence is to ensure the survival of your species. Have you ever wondered why you don't live forever? What life form would evolve if it lived forever? What species would ever improve if it weren't eventually replaced by a younger, more adept generation? Your body was only designed to survive long enough to mature, have offspring, and raise them to maturity. The time you have after that is only remotely essential to your purpose, and you are no longer necessary at that point.



Most sexual perversions don't harm anybody anybody, anyway.

Depends on who "anybody" is.


If you consider that that majority == normality, then blonde people with blue eyes are definitely not normal at an internationnal scale...

Sorry, but I never believed in the aryan race philosophy. In fact, if you ask me, I think that they don't fit what you'd call superiority in terms of evolution, but then evolution doesn't necessarily have a distinct top or bottom so I really can't say.



If you think that what's natural is good, and that human should take example on the animals, then please turn off your computer immediately, I don't know of any animal besides man that would be able to use a computer the way you do.

If you want my personal belief, its that everybody should be able to perform not only their primary technological skill, but also all of the basic tasks necessary for survival, which would include hunting, gathering, etc. If it really came down to it, you couldn't feed $5 to a cow and have him shit out a burger and fries. IMO its pretty shamefull that people can die because of something as simple as a power outage. Technology is good, but don't relie on it (always have a backup.)



The natural/artificial distinction is very pretentious. Man is an animal. Humanity is a part of the nature. Every human behaviour is therefore natural.


Like commiting suicide? Not exactly what I would call a survival trait.



- If you make a testosterone injection to a straight female, you will raise her sexual appetite... for men!! (the fact that men think about sex more often than women is related to the amount of testosterone in the blood :) )


See, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Your state of mind can easily cause your body to secrete different hormones, hence my belief that its a phsychological problem.



Homosexuality is a fact. The problem is not homosexuality in itself, but the way the society, ie most people look at homosexuals. In ancient Greece, it was a perfectly tolerated phenomenon. It isn't the case nowadays in most places in the world, mainly due to the strong influence of the Bible on our culture.

Agreed completely.



Homosexualtiy has been medicalised, there have been attempts for decades to "cure" it with little results.

IIRC that article said about 2/3rds of people who are treated for homosexuality are cured. Psychology is relatively new, it has room to improve.



Provided that transexuals are people with a real sexual identity problem, I think that someone who is surgically transgendered has toi be considered as a sterile person of it's new physical sex.


I don't. If somebody looks like a woman and isn't, I refer to them as a "he."


well first people want to know every gay and bi person and every fetish so they can protect themselves and as soon as you said it nobody wants to hear it :)

Who said that? What we were saying is that if somebody was attempting to start a relationship under a false pretense, they better speak the truth on the spot. You don't just go around saying "Hi, I'm gay, lets go pound Mr. Slaves butt."

[Clements]

So humans haven't progressed beyond mindless automatons intent on passing on genetic information? Humans have complex feelings, and sometimes they have feelings towards a member of the same sex. Big deal.

Bashing gays is always wrong. I know gay people. I have gay relatives. They do not have psychological problems and don't need to be cured, they are happy so let them live their life. You can't find any excuses for prejudice, even scientific ones.

[Talas]

@Alpha

You are right when you say that principally the purpose in life is simply to have kids. However, in order to make that an argument against gay people I repeat that you would have to be against condomes, blowjobs and sex for fun (´course you can change that, but who does anyway before he REALLY wants to have kids?). Ok, if you think thats not ok too then your argumentation makes sense, otherwise its two-fold.

[gokuss4]

If you want my opinion, I will keep it short. Homosexuals are just part of population control for the human race. ;) though it would be strange if the last two humans on this earth (male and female) were both homosexual, but I would guess by then that they will put aside their homosexuality and keep our race surviving, but that's a bit of a different topic.

[AlphaWolf]

So humans haven't progressed beyond mindless automatons intent on passing on genetic information?

Some haven't, and they constantly try to indulge their most basic instincts. These are the ones who can't get their minds off of the subject and are addicted to sexual activities and define themselves as "sexual beings." I believe you already know which type of person is most known for this.



You are right when you say that principally the purpose in life is simply to have kids. However, in order to make that an argument against gay people I repeat that you would have to be against condomes, blowjobs and sex for fun (´course you can change that, but who does anyway before he REALLY wants to have kids?). Ok, if you think thats not ok too then your argumentation makes sense, otherwise its two-fold.

You're about halfway there (I myself have yet to do anything of that nature, don't have any intentions to either, but I honestly care less if anybody else does it.) However my primary complaint against gays has never been about whether or not its natural (although that is a big reason.) Things like this (http://www.emutalk.net/showpost.php?p=91038&postcount=14) are my biggest complaint. Sexual beings indeed.

[sytaylor]

I've always thought words could never damage me if they were never intended for me or about me in any way. As such your example alpha seems a little like your being bothered by other peoples freedom of expression. Which is fine I guess, but a shame also.

[vampireuk]

http://www.emutalk.net/showpost.php?p=91038&postcount=14

So of course its ok for you to talk about which woman you fucked in public though? Alpha its rather obvious you are homophobic

[AlphaWolf]

So of course its ok for you to talk about which woman you fucked in public though?

No, never have, nor has anybody done so to me.

Let me establish a bit more context into that though. Have you ever seen the talented mr. ripley? Thats basically what this dork was trying to do to me at one point, thats what I got for helping him study for an exam. Oh, and after that incident, the dean reprimanded the guy when two girls complained about it.

[zorbid]

Damn, Alpha, you've enlightened me. Now I know the purpose of my existance !! [/sarcasm]

Every gene in my body would disagree... Do you talk with your genes??

I think that your rigid point of view comes from the creationism versus evolutionism debate, which is very present in the US, much less anywhere else in the world (I've learned evolutionism in a jesuit school). Darwinism isn't the holy truth. It's not because it offers another point of view on some stuff covered by the Bible that the whole world has to be seen from this point of view. It's not even accpted as totally exact by geneticians, anyway.

My DNA, who art in my cells;
hallowed be Thy sequence;
...
Amen.

Scientism (nothing to do with scientology) is some kind of religion.

Humanity is what it is today thanks to the social skills of humans. It's humanity that has emerged as a domianant specie, not man as an individual. Our ability to live longer than we can procreate allows the grand parents to keep their grand children, while the parents work, and so on...

On a side note, did you ever realise that your cells live under a very strict communist regime?

[AlphaWolf]

I think that your rigid point of view comes from the creationism versus evolutionism debate, which is very present in the US, much less anywhere else in the world (I've learned evolutionism in a jesuit school). Darwinism isn't the holy truth. It's not because it offers another point of view on some stuff covered by the Bible that the whole world has to be seen from this point of view. It's not even accpted as totally exact by geneticians, anyway.

Actually I have formed all of my oppinions entirely on my own. I haven't read any of darwins books, I have only taken a biology class, and the teacher didn't even believe in evolution. As part of an honors project I later did, I studied DNA codon mutations and what impact they have (all of which is information that is known to be true,) and I understood evolution based entirely on that (nevermind the popular theories, the fossil records only support that idea.)

The "every gene" bit is based on the fact that every gene in your body is there thanks to the natural drive to reproduce.

I have read the bible (in fact I have probably read more of it than your average religious zealot,) and its full of all sorts of assumptions of history and things that are just plain rediculous. It doesn't follow any logic in the slightest bit. But I suppose you have to be "spiritual" to understand it, and I tend to see things as they are rather than how somebody else wants me to see them, so I don't have the capability of being "spiritual" :P But either way I don't need to worry, there are several places in the bible that say that ignorance is also salvation.



Scientism (nothing to do with scientology) is some kind of religion.


I suppose, in a manner of speaking.



On a side note, did you ever realise that your cells live under a very strict communist regime?

Quite so.

[Talas]

Some haven't, and they constantly try to indulge their most basic instincts. These are the ones who can't get their minds off of the subject and are addicted to sexual activities and define themselves as "sexual beings." I believe you already know which type of person is most known for this.



You're about halfway there (I myself have yet to do anything of that nature, don't have any intentions to either, but I honestly care less if anybody else does it.) However my primary complaint against gays has never been about whether or not its natural (although that is a big reason.) Things like this (http://www.emutalk.net/showpost.php?p=91038&postcount=14) are my biggest complaint. Sexual beings indeed.

Ok, yet again, if you dont like that a gay person speaks about its sexual life in public then thats ok. But its only ok if you disagree with heteros doing the same.

You see, if a pal tells me how he fucked a girl I am not interested and tell him to stop, thats to intimate for me to hear. Nor would I tell anyone such things (at least not in sharp detail :saint: ). Had I been in your situation I would have turned around and said to the guy: "Shut the f**k up. No one wants to hear about your sexual experiences." If then anyone tell me that I was homophobic or anything I would tell them to sr**w themselves. :devil: There are some human values I think are important. Respecting other humans freedom is one, respecting good taste is the other. I mean, think about it. Mr. Hetero: "And then I slammed my dick into her ****" Great, very interesting. :term:

[Clements]

Let me get a few facts straight.

http://helping.apa.org/daily/answers.html

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?


No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?


No; even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, often coerced by family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable. However, not all gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who seek assistance from a mental health professional want to change their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual people may seek psychological help with the coming out process or for strategies to deal with prejudice, but most go into therapy for the same reasons and life issues that bring straight people to mental health professionals.

What About So-Called "Conversion Therapies"?


Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients' sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports however show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective which condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented. For example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported overtime as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention.

The American Psychological Association is concerned about such therapies and their potential harm to patients. In 1997, the Association's Council of Representatives passed a resolution reaffirming psychology's opposition to homophobia in treatment and spelling out a client's right to unbiased treatment and self-determination. Any person who enters into therapy to deal with issues of sexual orientation has a right to expect that such therapy would take place in a professionally neutral environment absent of any social bias.

Is Homosexuality a Mental Illness or Emotional Problem?


No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.

In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting the removal.

For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.

All of the above directly contradicts Alphawolf's views, and actually uses proper facts. I am in no doubt Alphawolf could find some anti-homosexual information, from the Klu Klux Klan website.

To be honest, I never expected such anti-gay propaganda from any board member. I am tempted to temp-ban, but I'll be lenient this time. Hatred of any group be it black people, disabled people, or gay people is not tolerated at EmuTalk.

[rcgamer]

Let me get a few facts straight.

http://helping.apa.org/daily/answers.html

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?



Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?



What About So-Called "Conversion Therapies"?



Is Homosexuality a Mental Illness or Emotional Problem?



All of the above directly contradicts Alphawolf's views, and actually uses proper facts. I am in no doubt Alphawolf could find some anti-homosexual information, from the Klu Klux Klan website.

To be honest, I never expected such anti-gay propaganda from any board member. I am tempted to temp-ban, but I'll be lenient this time. Hatred of any group be it black people, disabled people, or gay people is not tolerated at EmuTalk.


it would be ridiculous if you were to ban him. why would you need to do? because his views arent like yours. hmmmm interesting.
he has not posted anything more vulgar than others here have. in fact he has said many times to each his own as long as it didnt affect him. he has been arguing his points in intelligent ways. as have most others here.

and this isnt to say i agree or disagree with his view. but it seems to me that you have been more than willing to join the conversation and now because you cant change his view you want to ban him.

no disrespect is intended by this. I respect you very much as a moderator on this board.

[Clements]

it would be ridiculous if you were to ban him. why would you need to do? because his views arent like yours. hmmmm interesting.

No, because they incite hatred towards a minority group. This IS not tolerated. If you think that discussion of "How wrong gays are" is acceptable, then you should question yourself. Yes, in the real world you have freedom of speech and can have any opinions you want, but HERE on this message board, Martin makes the rules and I uphold them as member of the staff team. If it isn't in the rules, then I shall take it up in the Staff forum, and I think you know what the result of that will be.


he has not posted anything more vulgar than others here have. in fact he has said many times to each his own as long as it didnt affect him. he has been arguing his points in intelligent ways. as have most others here.

This makes no difference. I could present a pseudo-intelligent arguement claiming how black people are superior to white. He is saying that homosexality is a disease to be purged. This is descrimination. It makes no difference. My arguments were not vulgar, and nor were zorbid's.


and this isnt to say i agree or disagree with his view. but it seems to me that you have been more than willing to join the conversation and now because you cant change his view you want to ban him.

I don't like to resort to such measures, but clearly it is against the board rules to flame/discriminate/spread this horrible hatred.


no disrespect is intended by this. I respect you very much as a moderator on this board.

I do my job like any other mod here, upholding the rules. I shall now appeal for this thread to be closed. Expect a formal apology from me if I am wrong in taking these actions.