This makes me sick to my stomach

[Kahenraz]

http://megagames.com/news/html/pc/h-l2thiefspeaks.shtml


This is truely incredible. This will ruin Valve!! I can't even describe how this makes me feel... They have been working on that game for YEARS!

[pj64er]

Ill be buying a legal copy of HL2 when and if it comes out (of course, after a huge upgrade to my system). Noone deserves this.

[Hexidecimal]

Well, I can't say I am excited about HL2 because frankly, I just don't care. But this is pretty low, i mean, why would you ruin a game that millions are dying for. Those who grab the beta are ruining the game for themselves.

My heart goes out to you Valve.

[sytaylor]

meh bothers me not.. i'll buy it anyway, as will most people who bought the first i imagine

[Malcolm]

Releasing the source code, a beta and the 'gold' version of HL2 isn't really going to do anything, besides piss some people off.

Valve is going to re-code the net code to be incompatible with its old net code. It will revise other code to make sure hacks that worked on the leaked/stolen version incompatible on the official version.

This is just a piss-off for valve.

The main reason why people are going to buy HL2 is for the mods and online gaming. People making mods for the leaked/stolen version will quickly be caught or be condemned by the people in the community and of course leaked/stolen based servers won't exist, you have direct access to their IP.

In short, this is just a piss off to everyone (including myself) who has been waiting for the game to be released; now we just have to wait a little longer...

[Malcolm]

Here's a little update for ya. If Gabe isn't full of crap it looks like they are progressing well in removing the backdoor programs in their network and in finding whos done da' stealing.
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/28641/

[pandamoan]

Am i the only one here who believes that freedom of ALL information is a natural evolution of the bill of rights, and that all source code should be free, anyway? I read a couple of software pundits claiming some of this could actually help valve, who probably won't be on the bread line soon, either, btw.

oh, and as far as open source philosophy, etc:
the hacker got it all through outlook express, so maybe this is a little karma for them, eh? should've used mozilla!

jamie

oh yeah, and they should've been working on a linux version. MS WHORES!

[Trotterwatch]

Am i the only one here who believes that freedom of ALL information is a natural evolution of the bill of rights, and that all source code should be free, anyway?

It's up to the authors to decide what they release. I mean, in that case surely I could ask to see the contents of your personal diary - same thing? Or perhaps I should be able to walk into a bookstore and just take a book - of course paying for the raw materials cost.

I think you just want everything for nothing.


oh, and as far as open source philosophy, etc:
the hacker got it all through outlook express, so maybe this is a little karma for them, eh? should've used mozilla!

Or perhaps patched up Outlook Express. Yes it may be full of holes, but all the serious ones can be patched. Microsoft are not responsible for bad network admins, contrary to what the anti-anything Microsoft movement thinks.


oh yeah, and they should've been working on a linux version. MS WHORES!

Oh stop it already, the let's criticise Microsoft for everything is quite frankly getting repetitive.

[smegforbrain]

If I work on something like a game, or a book, I expect to get paid for it.

As does I'm sure everybody working for Valve.

Let's face it, this company is relying heavily on this game, and they were relying on a holiday release to boost their sales.
That won't happen now, and it's not going to look good on their bottom line in the long run.

I hope they catch the bastard that stole the code.

[Moose Jr.]

Am i the only one here who believes that freedom of ALL information is a natural evolution of the bill of rights, and that all source code should be free, anyway?

Yes.

You're disregarding one of the fundamentals of American society: the right to own property. Information, be it in the physical form or digital is still protected under law as property and cannot be confiscated at will by anyone who has the impulse to. If the same thing happend to you that did to Valve, I don't think you would be too happy. Unless you were I'd say you were being highly inconsistent.


I hope they catch the bastard that stole the code.

I wholeheartedly agree. I've always wondered why the heck they don't just use their "m@d sk1llz" to make something of their own...


I think Malcolm said it best though. In the end HL2 sales aren't going to take much of a hit at all. I mean really... who is so cheap they can't afford 50 bucks for a game that will last 3 or more years? Oh wait... this is an emulation forum... ;)


Edit:

This is a quote of a quote from a Gamespy article:

"Whoever did this is an enemy not only of game developers, but of gamers. I can understand anti-globalization protestors picketing the G8. I can understand AIDS activists shutting down the Golden Gate Bridge. I can even understand people who pirate shipped games. But I can only imagine the person who did this was a gamer. To him I say, 'Congratulations: Thanks to you, developers are going to spend more time worrying about security and less time making fun games. Nice going, loser.'"

Well stated... A hacker that 0wnz himself.

[My95ZR2]

Um...I wouldn't buy it. I can't justify laying down $50 for a game. I'm cheap, I'll admit it. I'll wait till it goes down to 12.99 (like Blue Shift :D )

Adam

[DuDe]

Am i the only one here who believes that freedom of ALL information is a natural evolution of the bill of rights, and that all source code should be free, anyway?

If source code will be free for all software, no one will work in the software industry anymore. So yes, you are the only one.

[AlphaWolf]

Am i the only one here who believes that freedom of ALL information is a natural evolution of the bill of rights, and that all source code should be free, anyway?

Yes, I believe you are the only one.

See "Article I, Section 8 - Powers of Congress" of the US constitution. It says that congress has the power: (and I quote)


To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Which means that if you author or invent something, it belongs to you, and for a limited period of time, you and only you get to decide exactly what gets to be done with your work. Doing otherwise is nothing other than socialism, plain and simple.

[pandamoan]

though i understand ALL the emotions stated below, i can't help thinking this is mass :paperbag:. Simply put information is VERY difficult to keep private, for the long term, nearly impossible. This just strikes me as a physical reality REGARDLESS of the ethics / moral desires behind it.

molecular assemblers and the internet are going to cause out and out chaos, if we don't start structuring society to deal with this issue now.

so, regardless of your ethical and moral FEELINGS, there's a little thing called reality that we are all going to have to deal with.

and socialism is not a dirty word anymore, btw. Most of the people who live in Sweden prefer it, statistically, to most of the people in other countries and their respective governments.

none of this is MY ethical or moral treatise, just an observation on the state of where we all are, and where we are (inevitably, would be my guess) going.

and MS bashing for outlook security holes is not only DEAD ON, but completely ethically justified. If i was trying to charge people money for a car that could potentially ruin their lives etc, I WOULD BE IN JAIL.

jamie

[Trotterwatch]

and MS bashing for outlook security holes is not only DEAD ON, but completely ethically justified. If i was trying to charge people money for a car that could potentially ruin their lives etc, I WOULD BE IN JAIL.

Yes but if you were to use a car and not bother replacing the tires when needed, then you could crash it. Everything needs maitanence of some kind at some point.

Tell you what, put an average Windows user in front of a Linux box that has been set up with minimal security. Now let's say they don't update it, apply patches etc - yep they'll end up getting hacked if they were a big enough target.

So please take your head up out of your arse just for a second. You have a terribly high opinion of yourself IMHO

If you hate MS that much why do you use their OS on your computer?

Yep I know you have stolen it, but why use it?

They're a monopoly you say, you have to use the OS to play games you want to play? Well until self righteous people such as yourself make a stand, they will stay a monopoly.

Simply stealing their software and using it, but still moaning about it makes you come across as someone who believes they have a great moral stance but really has none at all. You are a thief, who is desperately seeking some sort of justification for it.


though i understand ALL the emotions stated below, i can't help thinking this is mass . Simply put information is VERY difficult to keep private, for the long term, nearly impossible. This just strikes me as a physical reality REGARDLESS of the ethics / moral desires behind it.

Please send me everything you own or know via a PM, bank details, name, address, telephone number, erm shoe size etc etc What you want privacy? But I thought all information should be free? Or is it only free when you benefit from it?

[DuDe]

You are a thief, who is desperately seeking some sort of justification for it.

/me is digging out an old saying of himself...
"On the other hand, stealing and advocating it with etics is a blatant display of kleptomania".

[AlphaWolf]

molecular assemblers and the internet are going to cause out and out chaos, if we don't start structuring society to deal with this issue now.


You know, theres always a lot of FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) surrounding technological revolutions (Henry Fords invention of the assembly line was a big one). But, sooner or later, everybody adapts. The chaos that your speaking of has already began so far as the internet is concerned. It started during the dot-com crash, and the dawn of the P2P era, as well as the nintendo generation overfilling the IT industry so much that jobs there have gone dry. The chaos itself is the state that our economy is in as a result, but trust me when I say we have had far far far worse times on numerous occasions, and the economy will recover.



so, regardless of your ethical and moral FEELINGS, there's a little thing called reality that we are all going to have to deal with.


Precisely, which is why you shouldn't keep blowing around all of these government conspiracy theories. Not a single one of them is real. Your just kind of pissed off because things aren't being run the way your friends or family want them to be run. For example, you don't know why you hate bush, all you know is that you hate bush because everybody you know hates bush, so you just go around splitting hairs everytime something goes wrong.



and socialism is not a dirty word anymore, btw. Most of the people who live in Sweden prefer it, statistically, to most of the people in other countries and their respective governments.


And thats good for Sweeden, much like stalinism was good for the USSR, and like capitalism is good for the states. It's just the way that those people preferred to run their own system. We don't like socialism here because it removes freedom to own private property. For example, think of the computer you are using right now, under a socialist party, if the government or society determines that somebody else needs your computer more than you do, then guess what? They take it away from you, and you never get it back, because it wasn't truely yours to begin with. This is how things like universal health care currently work, the government decides that other people need your money more than you do, they don't even give you the chance to make the decision to donate it, they just automaticaly assume it and take it from you without question, because they believe that money that you earned doesn't truely belong to you. Frankly, I would rather have the freedom to decide what I get to do with my own property.



and MS bashing for outlook security holes is not only DEAD ON, but completely ethically justified. If i was trying to charge people money for a car that could potentially ruin their lives etc, I WOULD BE IN JAIL.


No you would not at all, but you could get sued into oblivion.

[Moose Jr.]

and socialism is not a dirty word anymore, btw. Most of the people who live in Sweden prefer it, statistically, to most of the people in other countries and their respective governments.

My Dad used to work for Volvo, a car manufacturer based in Sweden. He told me-and I can generally trust what he says as accurate and truthful-that for every job that could be done in America by one person, Volvo has to hire three. The reason is they don't have the same incentive to work. The benefits of hard work are nullified when the end result is always the same regardless of the effort.

I can understand why Swedes prefer socialism. I love it myself when I can work in a group and subtly transfer my share of the work-by decreased effort, bathroom breaks, (you can get creative with this sort of thing)-to the rest of the group. The job still gets done and I still reap the benefits, but I sure didn't have to work as hard.

The side-effect of all this is that over time the total national production of a country declines, and the country grows poorer and poorer. This in turn can lead to revolts and the like, after which a new style of govenrment is instated. Can you guess what happens next?

Welcome to the Law of Undulation.

I recognize that there are other factors, but in most cases, that's what has happened, and will continue to happen. It's human nature.

[AlphaWolf]

They're a monopoly you say, you have to use the OS to play games you want to play? Well until self righteous people such as yourself make a stand, they will stay a monopoly.


Well said, thats what I keep trying to tell him.

[AlphaWolf]

The side-effect of all this is that over time the total national production of a country declines, and the country grows poorer and poorer. This in turn can lead to revolts and the like, after which a new style of govenrment is instated. Can you guess what happens next?

Welcome to the Law of Undulation.

I recognize that there are other factors, but in most cases, that's what has happened, and will continue to happen. It's human nature.

This is what resulted in Stalinism in the USSR. Eventualy people just worked less and less until nothing was being done, so the government had to step in and tell people what job they were going to do, and how they were going to do it. Kind of funny how some things turned out, like the government would set standards in terms of weight for what each production line would produce per year. Instead of people getting more cars though, they just got much much heavier cars because the employees would cheat the system, and Russian cars became known throughout the world as the heaviest cars made :)

[pandamoan]

man, there has been so much vacuous hot air over my post that i'm just going to choose one topic to respond to.

WHY BUSH SUCKS ASS.

A. He's borderline retarded. I'm not just saying this because I don't personally like him or his policies (though this is certainly the case). Listen to him talk. He is almost retarded, and at the very least, a MORON who shouldn't be running the most powerful military in human history for HIS OWN SELFISH CHILDISH GAMES.

B. He's blatently currupt (haliburton, enron, false power shortages, rigged election by brother the governor of florida), a LIAR (no WMD eh?, economic stability, eh? Troops home by christmas, eh?), A coward (where were you on sept 11 fucker? why didn't YOU serve in the military? why did YOUR FRIENDS get busted for cocaine possession and not YOU?) The worst handler of the economy of ALL TIME. under clinton we had actually eliminated the deficit, and were BREAKING EVEN for the first time since bush senior rested control of the government (as leader under the puppet reagan), and now we are more in debt THAN AT ANYTIME IN HISTORY. Let's not even get into standard of living index, underemployment, corporate lay-offs, offshore white collar job moving, and the fact that SHOCK AND AWE basically means WHOLE SALE GENOCIDE.

C. He's not the rightfully elected president. PERIOD.

D. that sick little smirk he gives on TV.

There's more, and for more detailed reading i suggest "The Bush dyslexicon", or anyone of the excellent biographies that are available about a man, who's sole gift in life is that he was born to a powerful ruthless dictator. (ex head of the CIA, president for one term, acting president for 3 (1 under his son, 2 under reagan).

whatever, if you wanna be a bush fanboy, go ahead, it will only make YOU look stupid as he has nothing going for him.

jamie

[Trotterwatch]

man, there has been so much vacuous hot air over my post that i'm just going to choose one topic to respond to.


Because you can't pure and simple.

Anyways how are you going to change the world? Are you going to be proactive about it, or are you just going to post on Internet messageboards whinging about everything and everyone? Judging by your obvious very high opinion of yourself, you should be aiming towards the sky.

[Moose Jr.]

vacuous

That word suits your post perfectly.

[AlphaWolf]

A. He's borderline retarded. I'm not just saying this because I don't personally like him or his policies (though this is certainly the case). Listen to him talk. He is almost retarded, and at the very least, a MORON who shouldn't be running the most powerful military in human history for HIS OWN SELFISH CHILDISH GAMES.


All you are doing here is splitting hairs and further confirming exactly what I just said, as you haven't provided a single logical argument. For all intents and purposes, I can just as easily say that you are borderline retarded. (although that isn't necessarily what I am saying, its merely just as logical to say it)



B. He's blatently currupt (haliburton, enron, false power shortages, rigged election by brother the governor of florida), a LIAR (no WMD eh?, economic stability, eh? Troops home by christmas, eh?),


I don't even know where to begin explaining whats wrong with this. These are mostly predictions on his part that simply haven't seen water yet; they aren't even remotely lies. Splitting more of those hairs?



A coward (where were you on sept 11 fucker? why didn't YOU serve in the military?


Actualy sort of did, he was in the reserves at one time. Your beloved clinton was a draft dodger. But them aside, how about you? why haven't you served in the military? Ah, splitting hairs again I see.



why did YOUR FRIENDS get busted for cocaine possession and not YOU?) The worst handler of the economy of ALL TIME. under clinton we had actually eliminated the deficit, and were BREAKING EVEN for the first time since bush senior rested control of the government (as leader under the puppet reagan).


Classic democrat argument. Didn't you say this earlier?



molecular assemblers and the internet are going to cause out and out chaos


You know, the dot com bubble exploded near the end of clintons administration, and is the primary cause of the economic problems we are seeing right now, because of the reason you stated here. You have no logical "non hair splitting" basis for which to blame it on him other than it happened to occur during his term.



and now we are more in debt THAN AT ANYTIME IN HISTORY. Let's not even get into standard of living index, underemployment, corporate lay-offs, offshore white collar job moving, and the fact that SHOCK AND AWE basically means WHOLE SALE GENOCIDE.


Another classic democrat argument, and very untrue. You just got done accusing bush of lieing, yet now you are lieing yourself. We are nowhere near anything you just stated here. Yep, splitting hairs again.



C. He's not the rightfully elected president. PERIOD.


The constitution says he is.



D. that sick little smirk he gives on TV.


Definite splitting of hairs.



There's more, and for more detailed reading i suggest "The Bush dyslexicon", or anyone of the excellent biographies that are available about a man, who's sole gift in life is that he was born to a powerful ruthless dictator. (ex head of the CIA, president for one term, acting president for 3 (1 under his son, 2 under reagan).


These books are written by biased authors who wear tinfoil beanies and start more conspiracy theories than anybody.. Heres a better book. (http://www.webdesk.com/ann-coulter-treason-book/)



whatever, if you wanna be a bush fanboy, go ahead, it will only make YOU look stupid as he has nothing going for him.


You sure love splitting hairs, because now you are doing it on me. I never said I was a fan of bush, I merely noted the fact that you only hate bush "just because", and you like to go out of your way to find the simplest of things to blame on him.

Want to know what I hate about bush? He never judges anything objectively, he is continualy making decisions based on religious crap. For example, he completely disregarded scientific development when he helped ban federal funding of stem cell research, which effectively cuts it off. There are numerous other things I could name off if you'd like me to.

In spite of this, I do think that overall, bush is handling the situation appropriately. If we had al gore in office, I guarentee you that being the passive democrat he is, we would have seen more terror attacks since 9/11.

[Hyper19s]

her posts seem very ignorant.
and you know the old saying .....
ignorance iss bliss :crazy:

[pandamoan]

hypershadow.... let's not fling mud. name calling and assumptions about people who engage in polictical debate online (right or wrong), is a veritable troll.

as is some lamer's vacuous comment.

alpha, yes certainly bush's apointment of aschroft who is practically a cult leader is one of his central examples of his blatent inability to logically rationalize anything, as his religious bent clearly means that he is one of those people who need reality and philosophy spoon fed to them.

however, though you chastize some of my comments as "splitting hairs" and "classic democrat arguments" (which i take great offense to as I am quite obvioulsy not a democrat) those discriptors make them no less valid. my being in the minority here also doesn't make my statements any less accurate.

bush/cheney's ties to enron/haliburton and several other fraudulent business deals are well documented. The fact that these "men" are ruthless criminals without remorse is their primary problem. Their over all stupidity and following of ancient mystic books of philosophy is merely icing on the luddite cake.

of course i appreciate that you appreciate the act of debate, and are merely (in some cases) despite a political agreement, taking a contrary position.

i myself often do the same.

the miniscule adolescents that ignore all political issues and take a stand through mudd flinging on the other hand.....

....well, if ignorance is bliss, they perhaps shouldn't be so apt towards insult, if they are so blissful.

i myself think that ignorance is the cause of a great deal of misery, though perhaps not on the ignorant, but certainly on a democratic society as a whole, and this is one reason why i think election and media reform are essential for the well being of all future generations, and the current one as well.

and as for the constitution allowing for an election of fraudulent voting and vote counting, and paid demonstrators....
...you may wish to reread the constitution and point that section out...i don't recall it, nor do i see the point of it if it IS there... it pretty much null and voids the whole principal of a "free" and "democratic" society.

[AlphaWolf]

and as for the constitution allowing for an election of fraudulent voting and vote counting, and paid demonstrators....
...you may wish to reread the constitution and point that section out...i don't recall it, nor do i see the point of it if it IS there... it pretty much null and voids the whole principal of a "free" and "democratic" society.

I meant the constitution set up the electoral college, which is what determined the end result. Read article 2 section 1 of the constitution.

When I look at that election though, I see it like this: The vote count was out of whack, but it was pretty close; they didn't even count the absentee ballots, which are 90% of the time WAY in the favor of the republican party. Things like this make it impossible to answer where the popular vote was actualy at (I would bet everything I own that it was in bush's favor, but nobody will ever know). However, the popular vote is not what counts anyways, its the electoral system set up by the constitution, which was in bush's favor. The supreme court didn't "assign" bush into office like the democratic party claims, rather they halted the recount, which effectively sealed the evenlope in bush's favor.

Keep in mind that the supreme court justices are there until they quit; they answer to nobody.

[pandamoan]

I meant the constitution set up the electoral college, which is what determined the end result. Read article 2 section 1 of the constitution.

When I look at that election though, I see it like this: The vote count was out of whack, but it was pretty close; they didn't even count the absentee ballots, which are 90% of the time WAY in the favor of the republican party. Things like this make it impossible to answer where the popular vote was actualy at (I would bet everything I own that it was in bush's favor, but nobody will ever know). However, the popular vote is not what counts anyways, its the electoral system set up by the constitution, which was in bush's favor. The supreme court didn't "assign" bush into office like the democratic party claims, rather they halted the recount, which effectively sealed the evenlope in bush's favor.

Keep in mind that the supreme court justices are there until they quit; they answer to nobody.

and also the bulk of justices in today were appointed by republicans.....

...surely that is relevant.

but yeah, i understand the electoral college thing, the fact remains however that the election was run fraudulently in florida, by bush's brother (and florida is a huge vote in the electoral college, second only to california and (texas?)). regardless of how the results tallied, this is a criminal act and both bush AND his brother should consequently be in jail, not ordering our military into wars that dad couldn't win.

[Moose Jr.]

i myself think that ignorance is the cause of a great deal of misery, though perhaps not on the ignorant, but certainly on a democratic society as a whole.

I couldn't agree more. Good angle.



Keep in mind that the supreme court justices are there until they quit; they answer to nobody.


This always niggled me about how the founders wrote out the constitution. I can't pretend to know the answer to this, but doesn't it seem that this law (and others) give far too much power to the judicial branch? Or rather, that the judicial branch has too few checks on it like the executive and legislative do?


...the election was run fraudulently in florida, by bush's brother

Could you elaborate on this some more? I live in Florida, and I haven't heard or seen anything about vote fraud yet...


Also, sorry for my earlier "vacuous" post. It was uncessary. I should leave the name-calling to the politicians we're critiquing. ;)

[DuDe]

Pardon my ignorance fair gentlemen, but...
What the hell does American politics have to do with the Half Life 2 source being stolen? Oh, right, nothing.

[Tagrineth]

This always niggled me about how the founders wrote out the constitution. I can't pretend to know the answer to this, but doesn't it seem that this law (and others) give far too much power to the judicial branch? Or rather, that the judicial branch has too few checks on it like the executive and legislative do?

The thing about the Judicial branch is technically it has NO power, because it has no power to enforce, whatsoever. And the sheer fact that the US legal system is based on precedence, makes it a good thing that Justices stick around for a long time.

Keep in mind, though, that according to the constitution, the Supreme Court is practically worthless. It wasn't until the establishment of Judicial Review that the SC wielded any real power... hell, the original Supreme Court didn't even have its own building!

[smegforbrain]

hypershadow.... let's not fling mud.

Well, you're the one that's buried yourself in shit.

[SONICTETA]

I think that HL2 is in the east national, can't suffer good welcome, in Japan too similar, just the HL2 express very good in the aspects of result!
^^||||

[vampireuk]

Pardon my ignorance fair gentlemen, but...
What the hell does American politics have to do with the Half Life 2 source being stolen? Oh, right, nothing.

You are indeed right, get back on topic or the thread gets locked.

[pandamoan]

You are indeed right, get back on topic or the thread gets locked.

imho the conversation was quite interesting.

as for half life 2, which is interesting politically and otherwise, it is just a game and fwiw less interesting than ways to improve everyone's lives, and even some debate about those topics.

however, what is interesting is that HL2 did not run on my machine. ;)

the real problem with "anon leak" is that you never know if you're getting the REAL anon leak, or some altered messed up version.

the hacker put an interesting spin on it too, he claims HL2 is not finished, and honestly, this seems like either A. the truth, or B. close to the truth, because what is the point of lieing, and obviously he knew quite a bit, as he had complete full range on their network, thanks to a really poorly structured program by a monopoly.

you can't really seperate the politics from the source leak, or any part of life as it's always interconnected. politics in some ways IS life, and people's ignorance of politics inevitably leads to people's lack of understanding and lack of valuation IN life.

imho :)

if valve truly DID have the game finished, and wasn't using this as some poor excuse, they'd have a demo out by now, or something. who cares if a few lamers can cheat in multiplayer.

that's my speculation, and obviously is just as likely wrong as right, as that's how speculation goes. Over all though, i just enjoy corresponding with strangers about all this, which is the point of a forum anyway, isn't it?

maybe i'm just buzzed.....

[vampireuk]

The conversation was bloody retarded

[Hyper19s]

The conversation was bloody retarded

coudnt agree more vampireuk :sleeping:

[sytaylor]

pandamoan: your comments being in the minority do not make them less valid, but the way they have been put across for the most part resemble and old person bemoaning "todays youth". In so far as they're based on common almost cult like dislike of the President and rarley on facts. I've had these discussions in person a number of times and nobody has been able to bring about anything more serious than the way the guy walks or talks etc. It is the same old rhetoric that after a while becomes tiresome unless its given from a new direction or involves some form of origional thought.

[pandamoan]

pandamoan: your comments being in the minority do not make them less valid, but the way they have been put across for the most part resemble and old person bemoaning "todays youth". In so far as they're based on common almost cult like dislike of the President and rarley on facts. I've had these discussions in person a number of times and nobody has been able to bring about anything more serious than the way the guy walks or talks etc. It is the same old rhetoric that after a while becomes tiresome unless its given from a new direction or involves some form of origional thought.

facts:

there were more executions under GW as governor of texas than any other governor in history.

GW promoted a heavy bombing of an already beleagured populace in a campaign he himself described as "shock and awe". to me it was plain genocide, these poor people were being tortured etc. under saddam (sp?) and our bombing the crap out of them helps how?

there WAS NO VALID ELECTION. he came to power the same way other dictators do. through coersion and outright lies and bribery.

he was charged with insider trading involving the ENRON case, where he let the FORMER CEO throw the first baseball pitch, who was later indicted on multiple counts of stock fraud, theft, illegal business practices and other malicious acts.

he clearly is a vile POS with no business running the worlds largest military.

i shudder to think how he plans on staying in power despite his popularity dropping through the floor, and wonder what the next "election" is going to be like.

and i cry for the ideas of personal liberty and democracy.

[joel_029]

Ok, well that was a serious waste of space in a thread about the HL2 hack...maybe someone should close it now?!?

[vampireuk]

Good call