Mine is bigger than your's

[vampireuk]

That's right mine is bigger!! I refer to my avatar of course :happy:

[Remote]

Hmm, you of all people should know that size doesn't matter :P

[vampireuk]

Oh believe me it does :P

http://www.dodstudios.net/uploads/uploads/bw_pzh_155mm_m109_schalldaempfer_wtd_mep pen-001.jpg

Edit: The image wont show up so here is the link.. http://www.dodstudios.net/uploads/uploads/bw_pzh_155mm_m109_schalldaempfer_wtd_mep pen-001.jpg

[Remote]

It looks like he's overcompensating, and we all know what that is due to... Ohhh ;) But true, that's a big avatar. Are you a believer?

[vampireuk]

I'm really a socialist, communism has too many flaws just like democracy. But at least communism has given us cool flags and music ;)

[Remote]

Go get him boys :P You can't really compare democracy with communism, it's true that both may have flaws but not in the same areas. I can agree on the flags but music? Any examples?

[vampireuk]

1977 Soviet National Anthem

/me salutes :happy:

[nephalim]

Communism doesn't have flaws, evil dictatorships do. Unfortunately every instance of Communism as we know of it involved an evil dictatorship. In theory, which can be applied to reality, the two have nothing to do with each other. In fact, I think Democracy is critical to Communism (as an economic system.)

[Remote]

Communism has flaws, at the time of it's birth perhaps it was a good system, were powerty was a much bigger issue then it is today, perhaps not moraly, but in today's world it can't and wont work out.

And the problem with todays communistic goverments is that their leaders are stuffed with capatalism, ever seen a communistic leader drive anything else then a limo? How's that for equality...

They don't care any more about the communistic ideals then I do. Democracy, atleast in my book, has nothing to do with economics. The word you are reaching for is capatalism.

Capitalism is what makes the world go round, without it you can kiss your new car, new computer, new stereo and so forth goodbye. In times like these, beleiving in communism is plain stupid, it's a flawed system to begin with.

If you remove ambition and desire, then what's left? There's no such thing as a perfect society, people need to be different, in all means and on all levels, to be able to exist. Communismen is flawed because it tries to create a balance between everything. Everyone can't be equal, everyone can't have the same oppurtunities etc.

nephalim: democracy is critical to communism? Mind spinning that wheel a little longer?

[My95ZR2]

Exactly what Remote said, anything that is totally lead by one person will always fail, cause no one is perfect. They make mistakes and those mistakes will slowly cause their downfall...now that I think of it, any government will fail, its just how long you can hold it together with duct tape and lies.

Adam

[mesman00]

Hmm, you of all people should know that size doesn't matter :P

from what i hear that is a falsity...however since i'm not a girl i can't attest

[vampireuk]

Ahem I think you will find I am in fact perfect :P

[2fast4u]

1977 Soviet National Anthem

/me salutes :happy:

/me salutes :w00t:

btw, mine is that big as well ... im talking about the real flag of course :P

[sytaylor]

Communism doesn't have flaws, evil dictatorships do. Unfortunately every instance of Communism as we know of it involved an evil dictatorship. In theory, which can be applied to reality, the two have nothing to do with each other. In fact, I think Democracy is critical to Communism (as an economic system.)

Dude, you really know nothing about communism do you? It cannot function with democracy in any way, human choice has to be eliminated for it to work properly. Human nature is a double edged sword, both good and bad.

Personally i'd hate to live in a world with communism as marx wrote, i mean in that world there would be no reason to excel myself or to acheive anything because the state is infalible and should look after me.

Every time someone has tried to impliment communism they havent done it with a whole heap of andriods so of course it failed. :1eyealien

[vampireuk]

All bow before your mighty flag puny humans!!

[Remote]

I have always thought of the Sovjet regim as being somewhat gay, equal clothers, probaly deisgned, and all that comrade talk and not to mention the kissing. :P But perhaps, a big flag is worth it...

[vampireuk]

< mcbane voice>Maybe it is because you are a homosexual!</mcbane voice >
:happy:

[Remote]

Hmm, I see that you still haven't come out of the closet. Is Sukh also in there? ;) Isn't that somwhat rocking the cradle? :P

*another voice, I bet you know it by heart* Wake me up before you go go... ;)

[zorbid]

Communism has flaws, at the time of it's birth perhaps it was a good system, were powerty was a much bigger issue then it is today, perhaps not moraly, but in today's world it can't and wont work out.

And the problem with todays communistic goverments is that their leaders are stuffed with capatalism, ever seen a communistic leader drive anything else then a limo? How's that for equality...

They don't care any more about the communistic ideals then I do. Democracy, atleast in my book, has nothing to do with economics. The word you are reaching for is capatalism.

Capitalism is what makes the world go round, without it you can kiss your new car, new computer, new stereo and so forth goodbye. In times like these, beleiving in communism is plain stupid, it's a flawed system to begin with.Capitalism is rather flawed too, since AFAIK (but I have to admit I didn't read much on the matter) it assumes that poeple won't cheat it's rules...

Look how Microsoft deals with trials related to monoploistic stuff (or any trial at all?) : they bribe the ones they can't purchase...

Another example: the tobacco industry. Since the retail prices are too high in Europe, because of the taxes, the companies organise an illegal trafic to bypass these taxes, and sell cigarettes at a cheaper price. Main target of these cheaper cigarettes? Youth. The younger you start somking the harder you'll have to quit.

That's rather disgusting, isn't it?

[2fast4u]

I have always thought of the Sovjet regim as being somewhat gay, equal clothers, probaly deisgned, and all that comrade talk and not to mention the kissing. :P But perhaps, a big flag is worth it...

im into that comrade talk alot actually :P however the kissing only applies to female comrades ;)

[Remote]

Capitalism is rather flawed too, since AFAIK (but I have to admit I didn't read much on the matter) it assumes that poeple won't cheat it's rules...

Look how Microsoft deals with trials related to monoploistic stuff (or any trial at all?) : they bribe the ones they can't purchase...

Another example: the tobacco industry. Since the retail prices are too high in Europe, because of the taxes, the companies organise an illegal trafic to bypass these taxes, and sell cigarettes at a cheaper price. Main target of these cheaper cigarettes? Youth. The younger you start somking the harder you'll have to quit.

That's rather disgusting, isn't it?


Perhaps disgusting but I would rather say the beauty of capitalism is that you can cheat the system, the best man wins. And in a sense I guess it promotes it, the more you cheat the more money you earn.

Consider what the world would be without Microsoft at the moment, without them pushing and investing the computer industry forward. Steve Apple could never have done the same thing Bill Gates did, with the Mac. Atleast not with the concept Mac uses today, if I go to a story I could probaly come home with 10 different macs in comparision to getting a PC that number could probaly increase to a 1000 or 10 000. See where I'm getting? The world needs people who exploits failures and takes chances.

[zorbid]

When both extremes meet... If it's ok to break the rules, where does the difference lie between capitalism and anarchy?

The current capitalistic economy is based on the fact that people buy things they don't need at all. Let's take your example: computers. The most usefull things that can be done on a computer don't need the power of today's P4. Typewriting could be done on 8088's, Web surfing on early pentiums...

The lifespan of any good that's not meant to be eaten is designed to be as short as possible, an impossible to repair, so people will buy new stuff (think of the cooking "tools" of your grand mother and those of your mother. Half the ones of your granny are older than your mother is, while almost all the ones of your mother are 10 years old or less. At least, it is the case for my mother and grand ma...)

It's artificial, I don't know how long it will last... Not forever, I believe. The petrol stock is shrinking, anyway...

I'm not found of communism at all (I'm basically against any kind of ideal...), but I think that the way capitalism is applied now is way too wild. But I think the best way to put an end to this isn't to fight against it, but to promote it, to push it to it's limits, untill it's own flaws make it colapse by itself... :)

Go, go, promote, Remote :)

[sytaylor]

A new twist on anarchism (to me), and perhaps the most mature i've ever seen. However, i still prescribe a huge dose of SLC Punk, the worlds greatest "yeah thats what your anarchy gets you" film...

Perpetual evolution through trial and error is not going to be halted, because captalism allows some leeway in its strucutre. Its not the same everywhere and its not trying to be an ideal, but rather (and more sensibly) a real solution.

If most of the world can reach a democratic / semi-capitalistic state, then i think as a planet we will be ready to make a change, but thats hundreds of years away and assumes religion won't plunge us back into another dark age.

[zorbid]

Did you ever notice that God (any god, in fact) and your favourite Teddy bear when you were young, belong to the same family. I'll explain that later on...

To stay on topic, let's talk about handguns... Here's a small thing I wrote 5 minutes ago. For those who wouldn't get it, it's ironical... There may be spelling mistakes, if you see any, please tell me, I'm going to keep this little thing for later use. Thanks in advance for helping me :)



Freedom. What's the point to legally own handguns if you can't kill anyone. I mean, that stupid guy next door, you know, the one who spends his whole days listenning to home made techno remixes of Britney Spears, so loud the whole suburb hears it! Add to this that he sings over the top, and you know...

That guy sings like a cow!
- Give me my freedom, give me my freedom! - (sung, in the background, in a robotic fashion)
I WANT TO KILL HIM NOW !!!
- Give me, give me my freedom! -
I'm gonna shoot him in the head
-Give me, give me my freedom!-
Bleeding in spurts then falling dead,
He'll give away his life of bore.
See the fear in his eyes,
As he now realises,
He soon won't be no more...

GIVE ME MY FREEDOM!!!



Spelling:
Spend his day by? listenning?
Suburb : I know its use as a plural noun, but I'm not sure that I can use it the way I do.
is it ok to use bore instead of boredom? It's poetry after all, there are no rules ;)
Edit: Thanks Adam

[My95ZR2]

shouldn't "shot" be "shoot"? Maybe I'm reading it wrong...


Adam

[AlphaWolf]

Lets review some terms real quick:

Democracy (as defined by Plato): A balance of power between the upper and lower classes.
Communism: Remove the upper and lower classes, everybody is exactly the same (well, they are born different, but lets just pretend they aren't).

I like to compare this to evolution. Capitalism tends to mimick that of evolution; good things live, bad things die, and if you don't live, tough. Democracy is the system of laws built around capitalism to try to ease the pain for those who do not survive (economicaly speaking that is). Communism attempts to defy evolution entirely. The goal of communism is to ensure that nothing dies, because then somebody would be unhappy. Communism just wants to create this perfect utopia where everybody is just blissfuly happy forever, but in the process they destroy their own future.

re. microsoft: They replaced their predecessors just as somebody will eventualy replace them, it's inevitable. They will not hold the top forever, nobody ever has, nobody ever will. Meanwhile, the society as a whole benefits from the improvements given by them, which will be passed to their successors as the cycle repeats. You don't get that with communism.

[zorbid]

Lets review some terms real quick:

Democracy (as defined by Plato): A balance of power between the upper and lower classes.
Communism: Remove the upper and lower classes, everybody is exactly the same (well, they are born different, but lets just pretend they aren't).I'd better quote someone else to define democracy. Plato had very totalitary ways of thinking about politics. Read his"The Republic", to see what I mean. I've read it some times ago and I dont remember the details. Basically he thinks that the power should be given to a set of wise people, and the children shouldn't be raised by their parents, but by the governement. There is some egalitarian philosophy behind it too...

Communism as defined by Marx: He sees history, and the human sufferng that resulted and results from it (wars and dominations), as a consequence of the class struggle. So, we'll get rid of that stupid struggle... If he wants to remove upper and lower classes, it's by erasing the upper one. He promotes a bloody revolution, to destroy the root of "evil". Anyone who's wealthy or powerfull in the "old society" has to be killed. Then comes a transitory governement: the state has to be lead by the party, in order to educate the people, and allow them to "unlearn" the bad habits and ways of thinking that the ugly capitalism forced them to assimilate. Then, when everybody is brainwashed, the real proletarian dictatorship (an absolutely egalitarian democracy) can take place. No more classes, end of the history.

It's oversiplified, but I think that the main ideas are there. The intention is good. The flaws are quite obvious IMO.

In the real world, all the communist revolutions stopped at the transitionnal state, then collpased (well, Cuba and North Corea's regime aren't dead yet, but they are obvious faillure, people are oppressed, economy stagnates, etc... China is progressively evolving to open economy, and capitlism in a way.)


We could imagine to remove the lower classes. Just replace the stupid hand workers with machines, and let these bastards starve. Wait... Isn't this happenning right at the moment?



I like to compare this to evolution. Capitalism tends to mimick that of evolution; good things live, bad things die, and if you don't live, tough. Democracy is the system of laws built around capitalism to try to ease the pain for those who do not survive (economicaly speaking that is).
If you like to compare things to evolution do you know what happens to the species with an exponential growth rate (species without a predator, in fact). Think of bunnies in Australia. No predators, they copulate like freaks, eat, eat, eat... Untill they've eaten everything in the area... then they massively die. A few of them survive, move, and find a new place to eat, multiply and so on. Untill myxomatosis is introduced.)

I don't like the concept of "artificial" stuff. The man is a part of the nature. Humanists tend to think that humans are different, above animals. I think that from an ecological point of view, human is just another specie. Everything we produce becomes a part of our natural environment. (What's more natural in a bird's nest or in honey, than in your home or in plastic?)

Even if the population growth stops, nothing but itself can prevent the mankind of consuming more and more ressources. Isn't the economical growth based on the fact that every year you have to produce and sell more that the year before. Raw materials aren't availlable in infinite amount...

In this case, I wish that "The man is a wolf for himself" could take a new meaning...


Communism attempts to defy evolution entirely. The goal of communism is to ensure that nothing dies, because then somebody would be unhappy. Communism just wants to create this perfect utopia where everybody is just blissfuly happy forever, but in the process they destroy their own future. Agreed. That's one of the reasons that make me not like communism.

There have been capitalistic dictatorship, BTW. Pinochet's Chile was one. Some history: Salvatore Allende, the democratically elected socialist president wanted to nationalise some industry (I don't remember which, maybe petrol... not sure). This would have had serious consequences for the US economy. so the CIA backed up (they provided money and weappons. Maybe mens, I'm not sure...) Pinochet bloody coup (Allende was killed as well as many other people). I think that it has been officilly aknowledged by the US gvt.

I don't have anything personnal against the USA, BTW. It's just the current hegemonic nation. And it acts like any previous hegemonic nation, it tries to impose it's views to the rest of the world... Europe did exactly the same thing 100 years ago. Then both world wars took place, and Europe bbecame debitor towards the USA (before it was the opposite, IIRC). Something I find funny in the American foreign politics is the way they promote democracy at a nationnal scale, while they act in a very totalitary way on the internationnal scene (recently, think of the Irak war, or the way the refuse the internationnal penal court).


re. microsoft: They replaced their predecessors just as somebody will eventualy replace them, it's inevitable. Your faith in capitalism is so deep that you think you can see the future? "Inevitable" is the word that comes after a faillure, to persuade yourself that you didn't do anything wrong...


They will not hold the top forever, nobody ever has, nobody ever will. Forever doesn't exist anyway :), some day there won't be humans anymore...

Meanwhile, the society as a whole benefits from the improvements given by them, which will be passed to their successors as the cycle repeats.And, at the same time: "Meanwhile, the society as a whole suffers from the lack of freedom caused by the de facto monopoly."

I think that history strammers more than it repeats itself... Mankind slowly evolves, it adapts itself to new environements (both natural and political)...

It's stupid to believe that a given set of ideas is the universal solution to human problems. Even more stupid when the ideas haven't been tested. Egalitarism may be good, some times, at some scale, for some people as capitalism may be too.

[AlphaWolf]

I'd better quote someone else to define democracy. Plato had very totalitary ways of thinking about politics. Read his"The Republic", to see what I mean. I've read it some times ago and I dont remember the details. Basically he thinks that the power should be given to a set of wise people, and the children shouldn't be raised by their parents, but by the governement. There is some egalitarian philosophy behind it too...


Well, the original definition that he set is pretty much how the idea is still used today.



Communism as defined by Marx: He sees history, and the human sufferng that resulted and results from it (wars and dominations), as a consequence of the class struggle. So, we'll get rid of that stupid struggle... If he wants to remove upper and lower classes, it's by erasing the upper one. He promotes a bloody revolution, to destroy the root of "evil". Anyone who's wealthy or powerfull in the "old society" has to be killed. Then comes a transitory governement: the state has to be lead by the party, in order to educate the people, and allow them to "unlearn" the bad habits and ways of thinking that the ugly capitalism forced them to assimilate. Then, when everybody is brainwashed, the real proletarian dictatorship (an absolutely egalitarian democracy) can take place. No more classes, end of the history.

It's oversiplified, but I think that the main ideas are there. The intention is good. The flaws are quite obvious IMO.


Another place where karl marx commonly screwed up is that he was anti-idealistic, yet if you read his 4 or 5 phases of humanity (or whatever they are called, can't remember how many either), you notice that he defines everything as being so pure in the beginning because everybody shared what they had (yeah right, but whatever) in his primitive communism, then it went to slavery, then feudalism, then capitalism (if memory serves), and then its supposed to go to some sort of contemporary communism, as if everything will be pure and good. Kind of idealistic, wouldn't you say?



In the real world, all the communist revolutions stopped at the transitionnal state, then collpased (well, Cuba and North Corea's regime aren't dead yet, but they are obvious faillure, people are oppressed, economy stagnates, etc... China is progressively evolving to open economy, and capitlism in a way.)


Well, so far Russia has had the most successful form of communism, which was stalinism. Reason why? Because when everybody works for free, innovation kinda dissapears, and russia fell behind everybody else big time. So, before the economy totaly collapsed, stalin shows up and decides to tell everybody what job they are going to do :)



We could imagine to remove the lower classes. Just replace the stupid hand workers with machines, and let these bastards starve. Wait... Isn't this happenning right at the moment?

If you like to compare things to evolution do you know what happens to the species with an exponential growth rate (species without a predator, in fact). Think of bunnies in Australia. No predators, they copulate like freaks, eat, eat, eat... Untill they've eaten everything in the area... then they massively die. A few of them survive, move, and find a new place to eat, multiply and so on. Untill myxomatosis is introduced.)


Yep, thats actualy whats happening right now. Most major religions actualy refuse to accept the idea though, they just believe you should multiply til you literaly drop on judgement day where god is supposed to save only those who believe in him. :happy:



I don't like the concept of "artificial" stuff. The man is a part of the nature. Humanists tend to think that humans are different, above animals. I think that from an ecological point of view, human is just another specie. Everything we produce becomes a part of our natural environment. (What's more natural in a bird's nest or in honey, than in your home or in plastic?)


Too true, people tend to hate reality, especialy when its cold :happy:



Your faith in capitalism is so deep that you think you can see the future? "Inevitable" is the word that comes after a faillure, to persuade yourself that you didn't do anything wrong...


Well, it's actualy happening right now, just most people refuse to see it. I hate to sound like an evangelist, but microsoft has found something that it can't compete with, just like those who came before microsoft found them. Microsoft has been fighting linux for a while now, and ever since its started, linux has only grown.

Inevitable may be what you say after you fail, but that doesn't change the fact that its still inevitable. :happy:



And, at the same time: "Meanwhile, the society as a whole suffers from the lack of freedom caused by the de facto monopoly."


Well, that isn't entirely true. If it were, microsoft would have seen the same fate that standard oil and at&t have already seen.

[alexa999]

That's right mine is bigger!! I refer to my avatar of course :happy:
This is totally going off topic from the first post. :plain:

[Acorn]

This is totally going off topic from the first post. :plain:

Dude, if that didn't happen this wouldn't be properly emutalk!

[My95ZR2]

I'm not complaining...

Adam

[2fast4u]

This is totally going off topic from the first post. :plain:

eh, you think so mr. spam? :satisfied

[Jessica JM]

Personally, I like small, cute ones ^^; But then again, it depends on what you're reffering to if you know what I mean :shifty:

[Teamz]

popsicles

[Jessica JM]

:D :naughty:


Aww, I'm just kiddin' with yah.... :satisfied