IE vs Mozilla Debate (from GTA3 + VC on XBox)

[AlphaWolf]

That said, I'm agreeable to the idea of stopping companies gaining *total* dominance. However, I don't think it fair to split companies, etc. Who says the government should be allowed to break and make companies as it sees fit?

Well, when an entity has an entire market locked down, innovation tends to halt and inflation increases. Before the US broke up AT&T, it used to cost a dollar per minute for long distance calls, and that was in the 60's when a dollar was worth a lot more even. Now its not uncommon to have 5 cent per minute long distance calls, or better yet, flat rate unlimited long distance. The same thing is happening with the FCC mandating that phone companies lease their lines to competitors...if you were ever late on a phone bill payment, you used to have to "reactivate" your line for a $300 fee, whereas nowadays if they don't reactivate your line for free, you can just switch to another carrier.

The same thing is going on with microsoft and the web browser right now. Most of you look at internet explorer and think "this is just fine", but the actual reality is that it has gone nowhere in the past few years, whereas the other browsers are constantly making improvements that nobody even notices, primarily because if web developers take advantage of these, their monoculture IE visitors wont be able to notice anything.

 

[pandamoan]

def agree with alpha....

firebird ownz!!! i can't believe people use ie still, honestly, i find that shocking!!

(although i DO have trouble getting mozilla to send torrent links to bittorrent, grumble grumble)

there are just so many excellent features in firebird that are NOT in ie, i'll never go back. open some tabs in firebird and hit f11, you'll see what i mean.....



and my definition of monopoly is a company WITHOUT competition.

Blockbuster does not currently have competition.... a few independents here and there straggling and struggling hardly define competition.

and yes i agree that GBA dominates out of sheer lack of competition, as it is not that great of a platform in reality.

i expect this may change with the very excellent gp32 running snes etc. though...

and xbox and gamecube are NOT tied in the us.
the xbox is demolishing the gamecube, so a tie in europe and a severe thrashing in the us doesn't really equal a tie over all. simply put the xbox has some very real advantages DESPITE it's serious cost disadvantage.

 

[Xade]

Agreed. I think panda is probably just a Xbox fan, which is fine *cough*.

And as for the comments regarding Internet Explorer, and the likes of... 'Firebird'... being far better... well, no.

Internet Explorer is where it is, at least partly, because it has the greatest compatability of all the browsers, and is, overall, the best of them. That will hurt a lot of the fans of independent browsers, but all told it's probably true. Although, Microsoft can only get away with that because the majority of web pages are (lazily) designed with their browser in mind.

It tends to be the case that people bash the big companies, such as Microsoft, for the sake of bashing the big companies. Like it or not, Microsoft's operating systems for the PC are the best, and I can't see this changing for some time.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Internet Explorer is where it is, at least partly, because it has the greatest compatability of all the browsers, and is, overall, the best of them.

Believe it or not, IE is the furthest away from sticking to the W3C standards than any other web browser by far. Its compatibility is only an illusion. The only reason most sites work with it is because microsoft included it with windows, so just about everybody has it, so the web developers make their sites compatible with it.

I myself have been using mozilla for over a year:
- its faster
- uses less memory
- popup blocking works 100% of the time
- tabbed browsing realy kicks ass (for anybody who hasn't tried it)
- full support of CSS, whereas IE has virtualy none (see this page which won't work properly with IE)
- full privacy control
- several other things I use on a daily basis that I can't think of off the top of my head. See this page: http://www.xulplanet.com/ndeakin/arts/reasons.html (which even compares against a very old version of mozilla, which doesn't include things like typing a link name to find it)

If microsoft didn't have a monopoly, IE would probably support things like this. The only downside to using mozilla is that some websites do not stick to the W3C standards, and therefore are not fully compatible with mozilla. Most of the time I find these sites not worth visiting though, as usualy they depend on activex or some other microsoft specific scripting language, which I tend to disable because they are always prone to exploits.

 

[pandamoan]

xbox and gamecube debates i can't really claim being 100% sure on anything.. i just read some things, and get a general impression.

those of you who claim IE even COMPARES to firebird are simply ignorant, and need to try firebird for a month.

you'll thank me.

give it a month though, it takes some getting used to.



http://www.mozilla.org/products/firebird/

 

[karth95]

I'd say that I like mozilla/firebird better than IE, but not because it's not Microsoft. I used MSIE for years, simply because it worked. Netscape made me laugh. I know software testing, and it was the clunkiest POS I've ever seen. I switched to firebird/phoenix when it was at .5, because it worked, it was fast, loaded quickly, renders 99% of pages 100% accuratly, has tabs, etc. Some of those features can be added to MSIE. I know that. I don't care. You know why microsoft hasn't added them? They think it's done. They've stated they won't be upgrading Outlook Express. They are moving everyone to outlook. They've stated that they don't like patching IE, because the code base is so huge and complicated that it takes forever. Mozilla and Firebird were designed to be redesigned whenever they need to.

MS started coding IE when the whole point of the code was to make it work, even if it was hard to reuse code or the code was ugly. Mozilla and Firebird have a completly different point of view, and that's what makes them able to change on a much larger scale than IE.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Also keep in mind that microsoft will no longer individualy update IE - if you want to upgrade your web browser, you have to upgrade your operating system.

This means two things: internet explorer is no longer free now that the competition is gone, new features to internet explorer will come once every two years.

 

[blizz]

I've split the thread, so that things make more sense.

 

[Acorn]

This means two things: internet explorer is no longer free now that the competition is gone, new features to internet explorer will come once every two years.

Just a side comment, but between Mozilla and Opera (a lot of people I know thrive on Opera's 'hand signal' feature) I think microsoft is facing more competition than they ever did on the browser side from Netscape (classic). Surely they must realise that these are becomming as much of a threat to their browser dominence as Apache was a while ago to their http server (using apache as an example b/c apache is winning now). Do you think maybe they have other reasons for backing out of the downloadable browser market? Law pressure, divine revelation, ect?

 

[Macca]

what is this 'hand signal' feaute you speak of?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Just a side comment, but between Mozilla and Opera (a lot of people I know thrive on Opera's 'hand signal' feature) I think microsoft is facing more competition than they ever did on the browser side from Netscape (classic). Surely they must realise that these are becomming as much of a threat to their browser dominence as Apache was a while ago to their http server (using apache as an example b/c apache is winning now). Do you think maybe they have other reasons for backing out of the downloadable browser market? Law pressure, divine revelation, ect?

I believe you are refering to mouse gestures...I have yet to try that actualy.

So far as microsoft leaving the downloadable market, I think they did so simply because its no longer necessary for them to keep their competetive edge.

 

[Xade]

Incidentally, I did try that link someone gave me before, and it did display correctly (using IE 6)...

I do agree that Microsoft seems to be getting less and less creative with its' products, and (even more) shrewd. Their policy seems to be just to add a bunch of bells and whistles to everything and give it all hype.

My experience of Windows XP is barely different to that of Windows 98, other than autmatic updates, latest this and that etc...

But who's going make them do anything they don't want to do? People will buy their products, and the latest version of Windows, regardless.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Incidentally, I did try that link someone gave me before, and it did display correctly (using IE 6)...

Thats impossible. Show me a screenshot of how it works in IE6.

But who's going make them do anything they don't want to do? People will buy their products, and the latest version of Windows, regardless.

You'll be saying that until windows only runs microsoft approved software. I personaly do not plan on upgrading. I keep hearing everybody talk about longhorn, but I never pay attention to any of it.

 

[Hyper19s]

alphawolf i think it it did display correctly

i saw all the transparencies effects in the fishbowl
and the colurful circles,,,, the first circles/demo not the third demonstration although they looked very colorful aswell.

 

[Hyper19s]

ok going to try mozilla version 1.5 right now.
still downloading but it shouldnt take that long
over a cable modem/provider???

what the hell?? its only downloading at 100kb a second!!!

well its better than nothing i geusse..

//Edit using mozilla 1.5 right now and i have to say this

this thing kicks ass!!! i like it !!!


it is extremely good while going to websites more than one time

like emutalk!

and yes it does use less memory thanx

 

[Stezo2k]

firebird is the best version of mozilla, its fast, relyable, blocks all popups, works with nearly every site, can use themes and looks nice.

Definatly worth trying, as for IE, wouldnt touch it with a barge pole, ms include too much spyware and bloatware for my liking, not to mention the security holes in it.

 

[Noupe]

They've stated they won't be upgrading Outlook Express. They are moving everyone to outlook.

When you make a statement like this, it is often a good idea to include some sort of semi-reliable source as to sift hearsay from facts. I read this a while ago: http://asia.cnet.com/newstech/applications/0,39001094,39146336,00.htm

If this is outdated, and Microsoft has said somewhere else recently that Outlook Express will too "get the axe", then please share this with the rest of us.

They've stated that they don't like patching IE, because the code base is so huge and complicated that it takes forever.

Really? I have a very hard time believing that. Rest assured, if you give me a link to Microsoft or some reliable news site (or similar) that reports this, I will stand corrected, but for now, I just can't believe that.

Microsoft gets a lot of criticism for the seemingly never-ending flow of security holes in XP and IE and if they on top of that would say that they don't really like to patch these holes because it "takes forever" I think they would have hell to pay.

I think this debate whith IE versus Firebird is much-needed and I do prefer Firebird although I don't think IE has any dramatical short-comings. I don't think that people should try to dig up as much dirt on IE and Microsoft as possible by assembling fragments of hearsay into some ominous whatnot.

 

[pandamoan]

cool!

thread splitting! now that is some genius moderation!

and this thread was well needed, as many people are still using ie out of ignorance. (and who can blame them? IE comes right out of the windows xp iso they downloaded from kazaa. )

as for mozilla, yeah, 1.5 is a great IE/outlook replacement, but at this point in time, it is already time to switch to firebird/thunderbird.

having seperate programs for web surfing and email is way more efficient and clean anyway.

Also, i believe 1.5 is the final mozilla release as all devs are switching to the new "bird" format.

and although firebird is (on my ratings scale) TWICE as nice as IE, thunderbird is ohhhh 50x as nice as outlook the "automatic update for virii" that comes with windows.

i honestly do not use one single MS app BESIDES windows, because the open source alternatives are so much better.

the only reason i use windows is 1964 and dreamweaver.

i bet there is a nice web dev gui besides dreamweaver though, once 1964 is ported or mupen becomes significantly better.

as for upgrading to longhorn, and DRM. i know of NOT ONE PERSON OR ORGANIZATION that plans to do either, because they refuse to accept DRM.

even if kick ass computers come out at half price and have drm/longhorn installed, most companies/people will say "what i have is good enough", and those two technologies will kill all innovation......

....except for linux.

and then windows will die FOR SURE, without any question.

/edit

DAMN! how hillariously pointful was the fact that this:

1964 under linux OS please...

was THE VERY NEXT THREAD I READ TODAY!!! i think that proves everything i've said in a very real and accurate way. LOL

 

[flow``]

oh god.. havent we had a million threads like this before?
it's not ms vs x browser, it's lets make ie look like shit when the other browser has the same effect or better.

guys, i hate to bring it to you, but theres more to life then bashing web browsers on forums.

quit trying to convince the world your 3rd party browser is supperior for some reasons like less memory usage. if your going to be nerdy about it then you should have a fairly high standard pc with enough memory not to worry about it

i use foobar2000 for audio but you dont see me trying to pull reasons out my ass why it's better then winamp

to each their own.

 

[Acorn]

Flow... 3rd party doesn't mean inferior in any way.

And when the browser is technically, practically, and developmentally better than the MS version there is no reason not to harp about it. Doesn't mean every end user needs to switch, doesn't mean a stack of plugins and extra programs can't make IE do what the others do by themselves. Just means that they are... better.

So... we don't care about resource usage (honestly true, if your browsing what else will you have running that takes up so many resources that it matters?), we don't care about CSS, or multi-layer transparencys, or W3C standards (cause everything is built for IE right?), or any pages with odd code that might happen to run better on a browser that supports a wider range of abilities. What sets these 3rd party browsers apart? For me... thats tabbed browsing. For others hand signals (mouse gestures.. whatever ). For others the tons of little convienence features.

A more reasonable question is what does I.E. have that they don't..? I'm sure there are technical differences, but so far what Mozilla doesn't do that I.E. does is open the favorites menu when I push the favorites button on the logitech KB.

Oh, and I do have lots of praises for anything (browser and otherwise) that doesn't have an install program that puts shit everywhere, contains itself to two directorys, and has a finite number of registry entries.