Interesting debate on existance of god, worth a read [Archive]

Eagle

December 19th, 2001, 20:10

Umm, RPGLover your wrong, in Christianity there is only one god. The father is that god. The son of god, is Jesus, but hes not a god, he's the savior sent by god who is actually human. The holy ghost is kind of hard to explain, but its really like the spirit of god. As matter of fact in christianity, we 'supposedly' follow the 10 commandments, the first of which is "Thou shalt not worship any other god before me" Meaning there is only one god and it is forbidden to worship any other. That doesn't mean that we shun beliefs in other gods such as Allah, instead we believe that Allah is merely the same god we worship only with another name and that god has many names. We believe that everyone has their own methods (Musilim, Christianity, etc.) of worship and God (or Allah or whatever hes called) doesn't discriminate one or the other method and is happy when his people worship him. Well thats a short lesson on Christian belief. Though I'm a christian, I'm really very facinated with the beliefs of other religions.

As for the debate over the existance of god. I believe that there is some truth in evolution, but not entirely true. I'm going to use a few christian/jewish beliefs from the old testament to explain how evolution can coexist with religion. For one thing, in the old testament, god said "let there be light" and it was so. Well, in the big bang theory, wouldn't a big bang create a large amount of light? The bible says god created the earth in seven days, but by whos measurement of time is that? Scientist studies have shown that over looooong periods, years are actually getting longer, days are stretching out so that in the next 100,000 years there could be 26 hours in a day. So if we take that and go backwards, when the universe was created, there could have been .00000000001 seconds in a day, or smaller. Its things like this that make it all fit together. If I searched long enough, I could counter every evolutionist's belief with a phrase from the bible and make it so that both could be true. I'm almost certain that the same is true for other holy books for other religions. Anyhow, my point is that we just don't know for sure that all our beliefs arent correct. They could all be different variations of the same theme!

However, to say that the Universe fell together by coincidence is absolutely absurd. If you've taken a basic Astronomy class you'll start to realize that there are too many coincidences for that to be possible. I just can't belive that its just coincidence that the human body works so perfectly with itself, I can't believe that earth just happens to be inhabited with so many forms life, and I can not believe that creation was not something specifically planned out in extreme detail by some higher power.

Slougi

December 19th, 2001, 21:47

Eagle: About that confusion between Allah and God, Allah is just the arabic name for God. To be exact it means "The God".

Also in my opinion Islam, Christianity and Jewism are VERY closely related and I personally think they believe in the same god. I also think there is no "right" religion. Everyone is born into some religion, it's not something one chooses. All religions are right, be it Islam, Christianity, Jewism, Buddhism or whatever. They all teach us things like "don't kill each other", "be patient", "help the poor" etc. Some people misinterpret (not sure how u spell this) teachings of different religions, first one to come to my mind is Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. (Again this is my subjective view, I may very well be wrong but I don't think so ;) ) Nowhere does it say that you have to grow beards kill americans o anything like that....

sytaylor

December 19th, 2001, 21:54

Originally posted by Eagle

However, to say that the Universe fell together by coincidence is absolutely absurd. If you've taken a basic Astronomy class you'll start to realize that there are too many coincidences for that to be possible. I just can't belive that its just coincidence that the human body works so perfectly with itself, I can't believe that earth just happens to be inhabited with so many forms life, and I can not believe that creation was not something specifically planned out in extreme detail by some higher power.

Why is it eagle? because you cant comprehend that idea? surley people are equally justified in saying that there is no god as written in the bible... Once life takes hold its a pesky little bugger to shake off... so all it had to do really was form around the heat of lava hitting the seas... of which there are still ameoba to this day... evolution carries the rest... where did this life come from, who knows? maybe an alien sneezed and its germs ended up on earth, i dont know, perhaps there was a creator... but as it is written in the bible i find so very very hard to believe

sk8bloke22

December 19th, 2001, 22:59

u guys should read the stuff on that link i gave u. it explains many reasons scientifically why there isnt a god, using simple examples, so everyone can understand.

my problem with any belief system is that once u r presented with an axium or truth, the evidence for this truth is explained in a procedure of logical explanations, sort of like maths. yet its the core of the faith system that is almost to disprove - such as the idea of a god is so abstract to both disprove/prove .

although ppl shouldnt be close minded. if someone is really passionate about a faith or wateva, u should check out wat other theories to see, to either confirm ur beliefs or inspire u to see something different. i believe ppl can live a very good and happy life as a muslim, jew, christian, budhist..wateva. its just those who refuse to question can sometimes be too falsely led.

blizz

December 20th, 2001, 00:01

God is the creation of a world where life was hard, it was a necessary binding force to hold us together as a whole, to bring us past our evolutionary instincts. the human race has no need for a God as a binding force, it holds us back, limits and narrows our views. A religion is a doctrine to enforce order, and not necessarily a force for good

as far as I am concerned you have one life, and what you do with it is up to you, no second chances, no nothing, when you're dead that's it, you cease to be

Method Man

December 20th, 2001, 00:07

I'm a Christian and I beleive there is a God and I only worship one God.I'm thankful that Jesus died for me. I love you Jesus!

I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me - John 14:6

Josep

December 20th, 2001, 00:40

wow, i wish i would have stayed with this thread, but it already makes me want to read the bible:) one more thing, i don't know if this was metioned, look at a dna strand, does it look like that it could have been created by accident? hmmm...something to think about yet another thing i thought was funny just now, look at Slougi's little parody off of the Hamlet qoute, hehe, just funny cause that is refering to kinda what were talking about, maybe i dunno, just got done reading the book for like the 5th time and just thought it was funny:) plus im bored of finals and need to write somewhere else besides all my essays:)

blizz

December 20th, 2001, 01:01

Originally posted by Josep
look at a dna strand, does it look like that it could have been created by accident? hmmm...

the component parts of DNA have an ability to form into a double helix by themselves, the first part of the helix is actually caused by the structure of the four base parts of DNA and the secondary helix is caused by hydrogen bonding (which is just a massive Van der Waals force between an oxygen atom and a hydrogen atom (so big they gave it a special name because it does weird stuff ;) ))

you're attempting an argument from design, the normal example is that of a watch from which you infer a watch maker, and thus you look at the world and should infer a world maker, however you don't look at a tree and infer a tree maker.

Josep

December 20th, 2001, 01:13

Originally posted by blizz

however you don't look at a tree and infer a tree maker.

i guess im missing your point, why not look at who the tree maker is? isn't that the whole point of seeking whether or not there is a god? Given that from our knowledge its kinda of impossible, thats where belief and faith comes in. But seriously, do you think that some chemical evolution occured that just randomly started the human race by accident?

blizz

December 20th, 2001, 01:38

Originally posted by Josep

i guess im missing your point, why not look at who the tree maker is? isn't that the whole point of seeking whether or not there is a god? Given that from our knowledge its kinda of impossible, thats where belief and faith comes in. But seriously, do you think that some chemical evolution occured that just randomly started the human race by accident?

I was using one of my teachers favourite ways of shooting down arguments by the usage of language ;)

I do actually think we came about through luck, probably first as a sophisticated chemical chain reaction that gradually became more and more complex before shifting over to a cellular based lifeform, which would have been extremely basic at first,

I think the problem we have is that all cellular life stems from effectively one or two sources, which spun off into Virus's and the variety of cellular structure that we have today, and even the most basic bacteria that are inexistence today are fantastically complicated compared to what was there at the beginning,

Josep

December 20th, 2001, 01:51

Originally posted by blizz

fantastically complicated compared to what was there at the beginning,

Like, i think, therefore i am? i think thats the right qoute:)

Macca

December 20th, 2001, 03:00

I believe in there being one allmighty and powerful god...

....me :p

Ah...i thought i'd bring some humor into this serious topic :D

Raging Fuel

December 20th, 2001, 05:15

The main argument here for a god is that is seems unlikely that the universe couldn't have turned out like this is there wasn't one. IMO this is a pretty shoddy argument. There may have been universes before this one, or maybe there are other universes existing right now. This could mean that this is the only universe that was made in the right way to form life that could look back at itself.

HostLink

December 20th, 2001, 05:26

It's ME!

I am the creator of everything and I access the internet with the HolyNet Internet Services provider. Really high speeds, T5 connection with built-in DirectEden support.

sytaylor

December 20th, 2001, 08:57

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
i believe ppl can live a very good and happy life as a muslim, jew, christian, budhist..wateva. its just those who refuse to question can sometimes be too falsely led.

amen ;)

sytaylor

December 20th, 2001, 09:03

Originally posted by blizz

I was using one of my teachers favourite ways of shooting down arguments by the usage of language ;)

I do actually think we came about through luck, probably first as a sophisticated chemical chain reaction that gradually became more and more complex before shifting over to a cellular based lifeform, which would have been extremely basic at first,

I think the problem we have is that all cellular life stems from effectively one or two sources, which spun off into Virus's and the variety of cellular structure that we have today, and even the most basic bacteria that are inexistence today are fantastically complicated compared to what was there at the beginning,

life is a pesky little bugger, it has an appititie for survival,its soul purpose is to pass on its dna, we're the only creature who concerns ourselves with other such things as thinking abotu creation vs evolution... the main difference between the two arguments? one is trying to look for how, the other is more concerned why... to me its almost irrelevant why we're here im gonna make the best of it regardless, im just kinda interested how we got here

Renegade

December 20th, 2001, 13:27

I still think that if f=ma, GOD MUST EXIST. Indisputed.

Slougi

December 20th, 2001, 13:30

Originally posted by Renegade
I still think that if f=ma, GOD MUST EXIST. Indisputed.
Huh? What does Newton have to do with God? :!!!:

RPGlover12

December 20th, 2001, 13:59

u dont get what i said
i didn't mean that there's no diff between religion
what are u guys talking about
of course there is a diff
then why god(allah) made 3 religion
jewish , christian , islam
the last one was islam
if u can read arabic
go read the quran
u'll find all the info that u got about how the world was created
whats the diff bet it and other religion
why is it better
why it wasn't changed
why everybody in isalm like to defend palastene
what happened to jesus excatly
what the true story of moses ( the prophet of jewish)
how earth was created
what happened at the old days
how islam started
why god (allah) prefered islam
why muslims know that there is only one god doesn't have any child or creator or son or anything else except him
etc.....

just read it
and if u dont know arabic try read it in english
its not the same as the arabic one but alot changed cause words have diff meaning
ok just try to
:)

DuDe

December 20th, 2001, 14:33

This discussion is leading to nowhere. It doesn`t matter if there is or isn`t a God. I mean, you can`t see God, or hear him, or talk with him, so even if he does exist, what difference does it make? Eventually, everyone will find out if God exists or not, since we eventually all die.

RPGlover12

December 20th, 2001, 14:53

nope there is a diff
then what the use of us
just work
do nothin
hang out with friends
this will be no use
there is a god upthere
moses is the only one who talked to him
nobody saw him
muhammed(may be peace and blessing upon him)
talked to him throw an angel called gebrael(dunno whats his name in english )
he heard what god said and he told him what he heard excatly
and he went to the 7 skies and when he was going to see god
he couldn't cause gebrael refused to
he said "no human will see him except the day that all humans will see what they did good and bad"
only good will see him
and bad wont
so ofcourse there is allah
no way there couldn't be allah

sytaylor

December 20th, 2001, 15:50

Originally posted by RPGlover12
nope there is a diff
then what the use of us
just work
do nothin
hang out with friends
this will be no use
there is a god upthere
moses is the only one who talked to him
nobody saw him
muhammed(may be peace and blessing upon him)
talked to him throw an angel called gebrael(dunno whats his name in english )
he heard what god said and he told him what he heard excatly
and he went to the 7 skies and when he was going to see god
he couldn't cause gebrael refused to
he said "no human will see him except the day that all humans will see what they did good and bad"
only good will see him
and bad wont
so ofcourse there is allah
no way there couldn't be allah

thats all very nice, but do you have any proof any of this is real? do you know what you are reading? eveything you are taught fits in, but isnt it a little far fetched? why should you believe it "because is written"? dont you ever question it? i dont understand how anyone can blindly accept this stuff:blush:

Josep

December 20th, 2001, 21:13

Originally posted by sytaylor

thats all very nice, but do you have any proof any of this is real? do you know what you are reading? eveything you are taught fits in, but isnt it a little far fetched? why should you believe it "because is written"? dont you ever question it? i dont understand how anyone can blindly accept this stuff:blush:

Don't you see how narrow minded you are? i don't mean to get offensive but DUDE, you acting like "where are the bones of Jesus Christ?" Go watch that damn temptation island or survior show, and then you get your hard proof and ANSWERS, what do most people look for? Not what lies in getting the answer but just WHat is the answer! go watch one of the those "real life" shows and you'll get your hard evidence, and SURE you can question it, its just in the manner that you question and interpret it. again i don't mean any of this to be personally offensive:D

RPGlover12

December 20th, 2001, 21:14

then how quran came
bible
and all other stuff
maybe torah and gosplem and quran are the only true one
but the others
are no good
then who brought down all those religion
who made the quran
how from 1422 or more years its still the same
nothin diff
how can u explain then when we (muslims) say
kall rasol allah sala allah aleh wa salam
this means
the prophet of all muhammed(may be peace and blessing upon him)allah god pray for him
was from 1422 and still right now are the same
how allah told us that the day is going to come if these stuff showed up
girls who make them selves look like girls
ex all guys are like that they have long hair wair earings gold rings and stuff like that
2nd palastene will be taken two times
it did once in the old days
and now
3rd how he told muhammed that the bible will be changed after many years
and it did
4th how the devil was created
was said in the quran how
there are many stuff i dont remember them now
but if i do
i will tell u guys
:)

Josep

December 20th, 2001, 21:18

interesting RPGlover12...

RPGlover12

December 20th, 2001, 21:19

thnx
but do u believe there is a god or not josep

hotshitu

December 20th, 2001, 21:28

Look what I just overheard in western phil 101 ...and on the 69th day she spake thusly: thou shalt not discuss religion, money or politics on this board lest it spark off a pointless debate and cause discord and anger among my people ;)

edit:
Forgot this one: on the nth she gave s11emu to man and spake unto him: Go hence and play Soul Calibur lest thou mightst have forgotten what true emulation is all about :s

yeah.

Josep

December 20th, 2001, 21:32

whatever hotshitu, RPGlover12, i'm believe im' too young to make that call, i don't think i've explored the world enough to understand what is "out there." I still need to live my life and come to an understanding of other religions to make that type of call. I know in alot of religions precieve that as a bad thing to be half-way, but i really don't know yet.

hotshitu, this is the Talk of the Town part of the forum, labled: Talk about anything in this forum. Hence the word ANYTHING!:)

RPGlover12

December 20th, 2001, 21:45

well there is no too young in religion
in islam u must pray when ur 10 years old
and read quran as much as u can
well some guys say whats the diff between islam and other religion
the diff
is that allah made the last religion is islam so that everybody will be
and islam is the only religion that god have
and he even said that in quran
"in deen end allah howa all islam"
and this meens
that the only religion that allah have is islam all other wont go to heaven unless a muslim told allah in heaven to make him a muslim and let him in heaven
so allah want us to worship him in the isalmic way
not christian or jewish way
cause they were changed
and made islam not changed
so that people will be in islam but they didn't
so i think allah is up there
and control the whole universe
controls everything

Jaz

December 20th, 2001, 22:27

Jacques Villeneuve is God. End of story.. ;)

sk8bloke22

December 20th, 2001, 22:55

Originally posted by blizz
God is the creation of a world where life was hard, it was a necessary binding force to hold us together as a whole, to bring us past our evolutionary instincts. the human race has no need for a God as a binding force, it holds us back, limits and narrows our views. A religion is a doctrine to enforce order, and not necessarily a force for good

as far as I am concerned you have one life, and what you do with it is up to you, no second chances, no nothing, when you're dead that's it, you cease to be

totally agree

sk8bloke22

December 20th, 2001, 22:57

well if u r made to study something at the age of 10, u r gonna be closed minded, and subject to one belief system. if u r brought up with very little religion, it gives u reason to question religion more.

sk8bloke22

December 20th, 2001, 23:09

Originally posted by RPGlover12
u dont get what i said
i didn't mean that there's no diff between religion
what are u guys talking about
of course there is a diff
then why god(allah) made 3 religion
jewish , christian , islam
the last one was islam
if u can read arabic
go read the quran
u'll find all the info that u got about how the world was created
whats the diff bet it and other religion
why is it better
why it wasn't changed
why everybody in isalm like to defend palastene
what happened to jesus excatly
what the true story of moses ( the prophet of jewish)
how earth was created
what happened at the old days
how islam started
why god (allah) prefered islam
why muslims know that there is only one god doesn't have any child or creator or son or anything else except him
etc.....

just read it
and if u dont know arabic try read it in english
its not the same as the arabic one but alot changed cause words have diff meaning
ok just try to
:)

sorry, but this is crap. im jewish, and i can tell u that moses is not our prohpet. for jews, the mesiah is an unkown messenger of god, basically some sort of saviour. moses was just a memorable figure in history who help free jewish slaves from egypt. thats it. the TRUTH about jesus, everyone has different stories, some say the jews killed jesus as an anit-semetic excuse, despite considering that jesus was jewish. to be honest i dont care bout jesus, as theres plenty of evidence that suggests (NOT PROVES) that many of what the bible has stated is complete bullshit. for instance the idea that he was a messiah, when according to jewish law the messiah must hav origins linking back to king david (or something like that), but traces in his family tree show this not to be true; if jesus was another religion then that wouldnt be a problem, but he was jewish, and so thoses supposed prophets should hav the right links accordance to jewish law. (i kinda mumbled that, but theres basically some book which discovered this (a book nothing to do with judasim), and the author wrote a letter to the pope saying the anomalie in the bible, and the pope wrote back saying parts of jesus's origins were a myth or something like that - ill try and get the name of the book if u guys dont believe).

anyway enuff of that, i dont believe half of my religion anyway.

as i said, i dont mean to anger anyone with that, but my original belief still remains strong that u can lead a happy life wateva u chose to lead, just dont get brainwashed.

Josep

December 21st, 2001, 00:08

Originally posted by sk8bloke22

just dont get brainwashed.

haha, sadly, for some religions thats how it works:) Plus, come on now sk8bloke22, you gotta respect other religions simply because it "is" not for what it has to offer or tell. I still have yet to figure out how old RPGlover12 is...

sk8bloke22

December 21st, 2001, 00:22

i hav no problem with islam. its just i doubt that the koran would say something that is simply not true. all though im no big believer in biblical history, there are certain facts understood amongst many religions, i.e that moses was not a prophet. These falsifications, and misinterpretations, can reshape views, which is another reason why religion as a whole can be dangerous. look how the judeo-christian world has made islam completely and utterly linked to terrorism. its bullshit, there is a huge element of conflicting cultures, but that also goes with the fact that a lot of the religious world exists in third-world poverty, whilst there are therse capatalist countries such as america and united kingdom, living in upmost wealth. the contrast is ridiculous. and if u look at the poverty in these nations, u can almost understand why a person can be easily led to believe something like the koran glorifies ramming a plane into a building with the purpose of killing considering the dreadful living conditions, when of course, islam, im sure (im no real expert in the religion) promotes the complete opposite. still going off topic here, back to why god DOESNT exist...hehe.

Raging Fuel

December 21st, 2001, 02:54

RPGlover, you should realise that because the koran says that there is a god, and the islam is the religion he wants, doesn't make it so. The only reason you are giving for there being a god is that if a book hasn't changed for 1422 years, then it must be true.

Martin

December 21st, 2001, 08:51

There is a God, and it's called cable connection. I'm on a 100Mhz laptop with 24Mb of RAM (at my parents house over x-mas) with 56k. Can't even surf at full speed. It sucks. /me rips hair on chest. :D

RPGlover12

December 21st, 2001, 10:24

Originally posted by Josep

. I still have yet to figure out how old RPGlover12 is...
well am 13

and am a muslim
and sk8bloke22
the true jesus story
is
only about his death
and he wasn't jewish
he known there was a sent message before
he known that there is jewish but he wasn't jewish
he told the jewish that there is a new religion but they refused to at first
i will not continue the whole story
but i'll go for his death
he didn't die
there is another one who died
all religions tells that he died except islam
it told us that there is atreator told the one who wanted to kill him where his place
but jesus escaped
and they god made the treator look like jesus
so the ones that they wanted to kill jesus
thought it was him
and they killed the treator
and jesus went up to the sky (or heaven forgot excatly where he went)
and he'll come back to earth on the judgement day
where he'll kill anti criest
with the help of muhammed ebn abdullah ( its a long story wont say it unless someone wants to)
and they will kill him
thats the true story of jesus
its all written in the quran
just read it and u'll see
and even the speech of muhammed still the same
try and u'll see
:)

DuDe

December 21st, 2001, 10:50

What`s that, a new conspiracy? Jesus was jewish, and that`s the end of it, and he died jewish as well. That`s why the jews and the christians share the same Bible. Except of the last books in the christian bible, those that tell about jewish himself and his aprentices (can`t remember the right word).

Slougi

December 21st, 2001, 11:24

Originally posted by RPGlover12

well am 13

and am a muslim
and sk8bloke22
the true jesus story
is
only about his death
and he wasn't jewish
he known there was a sent message before
he known that there is jewish but he wasn't jewish
he told the jewish that there is a new religion but they refused to at first
i will not continue the whole story
but i'll go for his death
he didn't die
there is another one who died
all religions tells that he died except islam
it told us that there is atreator told the one who wanted to kill him where his place
but jesus escaped
and they god made the treator look like jesus
so the ones that they wanted to kill jesus
thought it was him
and they killed the treator
and jesus went up to the sky (or heaven forgot excatly where he went)
and he'll come back to earth on the judgement day
where he'll kill anti criest
with the help of muhammed ebn abdullah ( its a long story wont say it unless someone wants to)
and they will kill him
thats the true story of jesus
its all written in the quran
just read it and u'll see
and even the speech of muhammed still the same
try and u'll see
:)
That is what the Koran sais. But you cannot deny others their right to have their own views and you cannot impose it on them. The Koran sais that, I know I have studied it too. But I have also read the Bible and many other religious texts, and they make sense also. We will never find out if there is a "right"religion in our lifetime, not through debates anyway. Maybe not even after our life is over. I personally really don't know what to believe anymore. All those books make sensa, but they don't, if you know what I mean. ???

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 14:38

Originally posted by Josep

Don't you see how narrow minded you are? i don't mean to get offensive but DUDE, you acting like "where are the bones of Jesus Christ?" Go watch that damn temptation island or survior show, and then you get your hard proof and ANSWERS, what do most people look for? Not what lies in getting the answer but just WHat is the answer! go watch one of the those "real life" shows and you'll get your hard evidence, and SURE you can question it, its just in the manner that you question and interpret it. again i don't mean any of this to be personally offensive:D

yes but thats what im saying... theres no theory OR evidence that does not fit into the circle theory i have of "all powerful therefore it is", why MUST that be? i dont think im being narrow minded, why do people blindly accept this idea? why does there absolutley HAVE to be something all powerful... and most of all why does there HAVE to be a god as written?!:blush:

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 14:41

Originally posted by RPGlover12
how can u explain then when we (muslims) say
kall rasol allah sala allah aleh wa salam
this means
the prophet of all muhammed(may be peace and blessing upon him)allah god pray for him
was from 1422 and still right now are the same
how allah told us that the day is going to come if these stuff showed up

yeah so someone told "you" that, why on earth should you believe it? because youre told allah/god told you, how to you know?! because some book tells you so!!!

ok ill start my own book "there could be any number of explanations"... THE END... there i wrote a book, now just imagine i said it thousands of years ago... believe me now?

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 14:44

Originally posted by RPGlover12
well there is no too young in religion
in islam u must pray when ur 10 years old
and read quran as much as u can
well some guys say whats the diff between islam and other religion
the diff
is that allah made the last religion is islam so that everybody will be
and islam is the only religion that god have
and he even said that in quran
"in deen end allah howa all islam"
and this meens
that the only religion that allah have is islam all other wont go to heaven unless a muslim told allah in heaven to make him a muslim and let him in heaven
so allah want us to worship him in the isalmic way
not christian or jewish way
cause they were changed
and made islam not changed
so that people will be in islam but they didn't
so i think allah is up there
and control the whole universe
controls everything

very nice story you have... why should i believe it? because you say so, cos loads of people say so? im just not convinced...

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 14:46

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
well if u r made to study something at the age of 10, u r gonna be closed minded, and subject to one belief system. if u r brought up with very little religion, it gives u reason to question religion more.

my parents split when i was 7... previously i was taught quite definitely christian beliefs... but i never really knew why people wanted to go to church. Then when my parents split i was left in a catholic school to make all the decisions for myself, and i just found religion to be too little on proof and too much about "god is all powerful do as the bible says!!"

id rather be judged on my character and decisions than my ability to kiss ass on a universal scale

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 14:53

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
i hav no problem with islam. its just i doubt that the koran would say something that is simply not true. all though im no big believer in biblical history, there are certain facts understood amongst many religions, i.e that moses was not a prophet. These falsifications, and misinterpretations, can reshape views, which is another reason why religion as a whole can be dangerous. look how the judeo-christian world has made islam completely and utterly linked to terrorism. its bullshit, there is a huge element of conflicting cultures, but that also goes with the fact that a lot of the religious world exists in third-world poverty, whilst there are therse capatalist countries such as america and united kingdom, living in upmost wealth. the contrast is ridiculous. and if u look at the poverty in these nations, u can almost understand why a person can be easily led to believe something like the koran glorifies ramming a plane into a building with the purpose of killing considering the dreadful living conditions, when of course, islam, im sure (im no real expert in the religion) promotes the complete opposite. still going off topic here, back to why god DOESNT exist...hehe.

there is certainly a link between social development and lack fo religion... take the dark ages in the uk... the countries most religious time... most of the dicoveries of the romans were wiped out because life became about fearing god again... then when we get revolutionairy doctors thigns start to change, they go against religion but actually make life better!! any religion that condems surgery to repair a broken leg is archiac and outdated... and thats what religions did in the dark ages, now theyre been "modified" to fit society, its just makes me wonder how true the current interpriatations can be...

look at the book of genisis, the world was created in a week, because god says so... if god is so powerful why oh why would he/she let us question him/her?! the asnwer "well we're being judged"... doe sno-one else see how these answers seem to be convinient enough to try and stop you thinking?!

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 14:55

Originally posted by RPGlover12

its all written in the quran
just read it and u'll see
and even the speech of muhammed still the same
try and u'll see
:)

ARGHHHH! why do you trust this book so much?! its older than my grandmothers armpits, and they were past their sell by date LOOONG ago...

RPGlover12

December 21st, 2001, 15:29

why should i trust this book
why should i trust the quran
why should i trust the islam
why should i trust god/allah
why should i trust bible
i'll tell u each answer
but after this sytaylor

whats ur proplem man
who created us
who created this whole god damn universe
why is the use of us
who did everything for us
why do we even excist
how we came to this damn earth
can u explain this
if u did i will say that ur right sytaylor
and i will answer these questions

why should i trust the bible
can u guys tell me how do u trust a treator
the same thing here
how can i trust somethin changed
how can i trust in each book somethin diff from the other
can u tell me this
2nd
why do i trust the quran
cause its the only religion that allah want us to move on
its the only religion that hasn't been changed
3rdwhy do i trust allah
cause he said in his unchanged religion so

some guys say that
"islam is a religion of terrorism "
its not true guys
god said in the quran
whoever kills an innocent guy
as who killed all in the earth
so whoever did this didn't study islam reall well
and what did usama bin laden did was wrong
i do say this
if he wanted to harm the real guys harm the orgnization of u.s or any other
but not the innocent ones
just only in war

so u sytaylor

how the heck couldn't u believe in any religion

and u olegzaks
how the heck could u believe that jesus was jewish
no way
let me give u an example
how can u try to make christianity or islam more popular if ur not in those religion
no way
u dont know anything about them
so how jesus told them to go in the christian even if he's not
how

can u explain
just because its written in the bible
just try to read other religions
like quran
just try to
it got to many goods in it
and there is diff bet. jewish and christian
and jesus said that there will be another prophet sent
called muhammed
and it did happen
he said believe in him
that what happened
and moses said that
dont remember excatly when
but it did
so i think that u guys must learn before u talk
:)

Slougi

December 21st, 2001, 16:08

I totally 100% agree to Sytaylor, BUT you have to also see the other ption that in fact we were created by an all-powerful god. That is certainly something that cannot be comfirmed nor denied. Maybe we are just :alien: , maybe we are nothing but a developed chain of organic componds. Who knows? I can tell you this: At least no living human being does, nor ever will. ;)

sk8bloke22

December 21st, 2001, 16:28

Originally posted by RPGlover12

whats ur proplem man
who created us
who created this whole god damn universe
why is the use of us
who did everything for us
why do we even excist
how we came to this damn earth
can u explain this
if u did i will say that ur right sytaylor
and i will answer these questions

:)

ok heres some proof, evolution.:

The second law of thermodynamics basically says that the entropy in a closed system tends to increase or stay the same. That may sound complex to those who aren't familiar with physics, but it really is very simple. Entropy is just the amount of disorder in a system, and a system is basically anything you can think of. An atom is a system. Earth is a system. Our galaxy is a system. When I say disorder, I really mean disorder. At first glance, most people think that entropy is an actual chemical thing that has substance to it, and make it out to be a whole lot more complicated than it really is. Entropy really is disorder, in the very same sense that is commonly used by the general public. A room that has clothing cluttered about the floor, books piling out of the closet, and dirty dishes scattered everywhere has high entropy, while a room that has everything neatly filed away has low entropy. The second law tells us that the amount of entropy in a closed system tends to increase or stay the same. For example, a dirty house left on its own will not become clean. Dust can collect on surfaces, mold can settle in, and so on. The best you can hope for is for things to stay the same.

You may think that you can decrease the entropy of a system yourself by cleaning that messy room or using a vaccum cleaner. This brings us to what I mean by closed systems. There are two kinds of systems: closed and open. An open system is defined as a system that has an outside source of energy. Earth, for example, is open because it has the sun. Your room, for example, is an open system because it has an outside energy source: you. With an outside energy source, entropy in a contained area can actually decrease. It can only decrease, however, at the expense of other parts of the universe. The second law really only applies to the universe as a whole. You room, for example, is messy again. You decide to clean it. You pick up the clothes, fold them and put them away. While your room may have decreased in entropy, the rest of the universe has not. The energy that you used to pick up your room was expelled from your body as heat. More heat means more entropy. The amount of entropy generated by the heat from you far outweighs any entropy you may have "taken away" from you. This is why the second law of thermodynamics speaks specifically about closed systems. Closed systems have no energy source. The only truly closed system in existence is the entire universe itself, because that is all there is. It has no outside energy source because there isn't anything outside of it to begin with. That tiny little section of the cosmos that is your room may have decreased in entropy, but for reasons already discussed, the rest of the universe suffers from an increase. The second law prevails: the closed system increases in entropy.

What does this have to do with evolution?

Evolution, as we all know, involves the very gradual change of organisms over long periods of geologic time. Very often, those changes are from simple to complex. Certainly, a human is more ordered (has less entropy) than a single celled bacteria. That would mean that evolution from basic cells to modern animals would decrease the entropy of the universe, and violate the second law, correct? No. Actually, its quite the opposite. The more complex a system is, the more entropy it has. Imagine a box. It doesn't matter what kind of box. Just imagine a box. Imagine that there is a single hydrogen atom bouncing around inside of that box. It seems neat and tidy, right? Most people imagine this as a box with a little red or blue ball bouncing around inside of it. Now imagine a box with a hundred of those balls bouncing around inside of it. Imagine red blue and green balls. Imagine different sized balls. Imagine ten thousand different balls bouncing around inside at incredible speeds. The system is more complex now because of all of the features we've added, and it's become much more disordered, hasn't it?

A good way to think of the amount of entropy in a system is how many states are there that the system could be in that have the overall same appearance. Think about the box again. Imagine it with one atom bouncing around again. Compare two states that the system of the box could be in: one where the ball is all the way on the left side of the box, and another where the ball is all the way on the right side of the box. You can easily distinguish the two, right? You can do the same with the atom being at the top of the box, at the bottom, etc., and none of them really look the same, do they? Let's go back to our box with the thousands of balls. Picture the different states that the box might be in. Because all of these balls are all over the place and the box is jam packed, all of these states have the same overall appearance. For this reason, water has extremely high amounts of entropy. Imagine a glass of clear water with nothing else in it. Just water. Imagine stirring the water now. After the water slows down, what does it look like? It doesn't look any different at all, does it? Even though the water molecules inside that glass are in completely different positions due to your stirring, it still has the same overall appearance. Organisms are the same way.

Imagine a very simple cell with nothing but a nucleus. Imagine the different states it might be in (I would probably picture the nucleus in different places). Imagine the nucleus on the left side of the cell. Now imagine it on the right. You can tell the difference, right? These two states don't have the same overall appearance. Now imagine trillions of cells all mangled around. Imagine all the different positions these cells might have. They all have the same overall appearance, don't they? That's because more complex systems have higher entropy. This is well known in science. The mistake that creationists make when they believe that evolution violates the second law is that they think that simple to complex means disordered to ordered. As I've shown, this is not nearly the case. More ordered most certainly does not mean more complex.

After hearing this explanation, some creationists probe further by saying that the assembly of non living material into life violates the second law. Again, this is not true, but for a different reason than discussed above. The random scattering of nucleotides, DNA, RNA and so on all mangled around forming into a neat little cell does go from disordered to ordered. What creationists do not take into account here is that the earth is not a closed system. These things can happen because the earth has the sun as an energy source. The sun and lightning heating the ocean would provoke chemical reactions among all of those organic compounds that would tend not to happen without them, just like the second law says. Imagine, for example, a park. Through the middle of the park is a stone wall. Scattered in a disordered fashion across the ground on the west side of the wall are many, many leaves. Imagine that wind blows these leaves east. All of the leaves collect on the walls. These collections of leaves are more ordered than the state that the leaves were in before the wind blew. Again, this can happen because earth is an open system. The wind is a result of differences in air pressure, which is a result of the unequal heating of the earth by the sun. Had the earth been a closed system, there would be no sun, therefore no wind, and the leaves would have just sat there. It's the same way with organisms.

Now, even if simple to complex did mean disordered to ordered, the usage of food energy, as said before, far outweighs any decrease in entropy made by bodily functions. For you to clean your room, you use that food energy. For organelles inside cells to get rid of waste unwanted substances, energy is used. That energy is either derived from plants, which get their energy from the sun by photosynthesis, or by photosynthesis carried out by the cell itself (or, in rare cases chemosynthesis), and is expelled as heat, increasing the universe's entropy. True: the cell may be cleaner and more ordered, but outside the cell there is more heat and therefore more entropy. The cell is an open system, just like the earth. "

believe is u want, but it is scientific, and very difficult to disprove.

[ some guys say that
"islam is a religion of terrorism "
its not true guys
god said in the quran
whoever kills an innocent guy
as who killed all in the earth
so whoever did this didn't study islam reall well
and what did usama bin laden did was wrong
i do say this
if he wanted to harm the real guys harm the orgnization of u.s or any other
but not the innocent ones
just only in war ]

totally agree with u there though.

sorry about the lengthy post.

Slougi

December 21st, 2001, 16:39

Good long post Robert :) .This is a bit off-topic but the universe is not necessarily a cosed system... It is quiet possible that there are numerous parallel universes existant at the same time interval which draw energy from one another. It is hypothesized that you could travel between these through wormholes. Sounds like science-fiction i know but several researchers have suggested such things. a bit hard to explain but infinitely big things like the univers may be contained in a kind of meta-plain, which in turn is also infinitely big. That in turn... You get the idea ;)

Slougi

December 21st, 2001, 16:41

*just forget it, made a mistake*

sk8bloke22

December 21st, 2001, 16:56

yeh the concept of infinity is very hard to comprehend, probably only because our lives are based on a linear life cycle.
from birth --> death .

but yeh, u could be right. but wateva, a closed system would be wateva surrounds the millions of universes. that how extract tries to explain things simply so ppl can understand, if it just used loads of scientific termonology instead, only like professeurs would understand it, thats why i like it. :D

Slougi

December 21st, 2001, 19:09

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
yeh the concept of infinity is very hard to comprehend, probably only because our lives are based on a linear life cycle.
from birth --> death .

but yeh, u could be right. but wateva, a closed system would be wateva surrounds the millions of universes. that how extract tries to explain things simply so ppl can understand, if it just used loads of scientific termonology instead, only like professeurs would understand it, thats why i like it. :D
Yes but imagine that thing that contains the millions of universes was also contained in one of those... things... whatever u call them :p . Then in theory there would be NO closed system possible, at least not 100 % closed ;)

Josep

December 21st, 2001, 19:12

sk8bloke22: NIIce long post, hehe, don't worry im not going to qoute that:) by the way where did you plagerize that from? haha j/k:D I read all of what you wrote, given i don't think there is any more to clarify in it, just to Reitterate

Open system: A system, such as a living organism, in which both matter and energy are exchanged between the system and the environment.

Closed system: System in which energy--but not matter-- is exchanged between the system and its environment.

for anyone that cares...:)

I don't recall you saying sk8bloke22 if you had a religion, based on what you've said its hard to make that clear:) I don't know if your a professor, but i know a few from M.I.T. that still have a religion despite having all that knowledge of what you said.
BTW sk8bloke22, for my AP environmental science class im going to take almost word for word what ya said, k? haha, were going over that stuff right now, im not going to claim its mine, im just going to use it:)

o yeah, R-E-S-P-E-CT is what were looking for to stay in this forum, no one get nasty with anyone. i have a post for you later sytaylor:blush: i gotta run some errands, brb:)

waaay too many smiley faces...

Jaz

December 21st, 2001, 19:12

Why does there always seem to be a thread about God or heaven or something? There will never be an end to this as we clearly are of all different religions and different beliefs. Believe what you want! :D But don't call other's beliefs bollocks. ;)

Josep

December 21st, 2001, 19:21

Originally posted by Jaz
Why does there always seem to be a thread about God or heaven or something? There will never be an end to this as we clearly are of all different religions and different beliefs. Believe what you want! :D But don't call other's beliefs bollocks. ;)

stepped into something you probably shouldn't have vill22:) People in america don't believe the terrorist thing should have happened, but people in other countries think it was good...definitly won't go any further cause i DO NOT really want to lead this thread in to that type of converstation, but basically jaz, is there any easy answer to life like the one you just proposed? of course not, unless you live in a utopian world:)

Jaz

December 21st, 2001, 19:30

I just strongly feel that there shouldn't be a `debate` about God. The only thing that can come from this thread is offended people.

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 19:36

Originally posted by RPGlover12

why should i trust the bible
can u guys tell me how do u trust a treator
the same thing here
how can i trust somethin changed
how can i trust in each book somethin diff from the other
can u tell me this
2nd
why do i trust the quran
cause its the only religion that allah want us to move on
its the only religion that hasn't been changed
3rdwhy do i trust allah
cause he said in his unchanged religion so

yes HOW do you know this?! because you have been taught it... but who's to say your teachers are wrong?

QUOTE]Originally posted by RPGlover12

some guys say that
"islam is a religion of terrorism "
its not true guys
god said in the quran
whoever kills an innocent guy
as who killed all in the earth
so whoever did this didn't study islam reall well
and what did usama bin laden did was wrong
i do say this
if he wanted to harm the real guys harm the orgnization of u.s or any other
but not the innocent ones
just only in war
[/QUOTE]
i never questioned that

Originally posted by RPGlover12

so u sytaylor

how the heck couldn't u believe in any religion

Simple, I don't like the evidence, i think its very much based on having to believe what other people tell you and a series of books, there is no sign, there is no obvious call to a higher power, because if their was we would ALL feel it and have the ability to negate it

Originally posted by RPGlover12

and u olegzaks
how the heck could u believe that jesus was jewish
no way
let me give u an example
how can u try to make christianity or islam more popular if ur not in those religion
no way
u dont know anything about them
so how jesus told them to go in the christian even if he's not
how

can u explain
just because its written in the bible
just try to read other religions
like quran
just try to
it got to many goods in it
and there is diff bet. jewish and christian
and jesus said that there will be another prophet sent
called muhammed
and it did happen
he said believe in him
that what happened
and moses said that
dont remember excatly when
but it did
so i think that u guys must learn before u talk
:)

Now what you just did is what causes war, you believe your version of history is right because its what you have been taught. What im saying is i dont know, can you not accept that? Why to you believe so much? Its almost been bred into you that there absolutley is god and there is no way to doubt this because there is, and because there is there is no way to doubt it and because there is no way to doubt it there is a god... say a pattern here? What im saying is,

a) because things are written does not make them truth (yes even in the quaran)
b) religion seems to have been forced on you and you have no way of letting go, i just wish you could see things from my view here, im not sayin there cant be god, im saying i dont know, but i certainly dont believe what is written

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 19:40

Originally posted by Slougi
I totally 100% agree to Sytaylor, BUT you have to also see the other ption that in fact we were created by an all-powerful god. That is certainly something that cannot be comfirmed nor denied. Maybe we are just :alien: , maybe we are nothing but a developed chain of organic componds. Who knows? I can tell you this: At least no living human being does, nor ever will. ;)

Now you see... i was all set to give you a pat on the back... but what i say is humans have no limits, we should be free to think and feel and live our lives, if religion helps with ethics great :). You can never deny something you dont know, which is what makes this argument so hard... however on the religious side.. the whole idea of faith is believeing something you dont know, and does nobody else find it hippocritical that the atheist is condemed for not having faith in something that you cant proove, when all im saying as an atheist is i can neither confim nor deny what there is/isnt... so im not going to place faith in something i dont know

sytaylor

December 21st, 2001, 19:49

Originally posted by Jaz
I just strongly feel that there shouldn't be a `debate` about God. The only thing that can come from this thread is offended people.

Well dont read it then :p
i mean cmon, if people want to talk, let them talk, if they can put up with my rants and raves great! if not tell me i wont mind :)

sk8bloke22

December 21st, 2001, 20:20

ok i think this thread is relevant. its interesting to hear wat ppl think. it is interesting to see wat ppl come up with to prove/disprove the theory of god. i have no problem with ppl believing wat eva they want, its a free world after all. its the theory of god im questioning, and that sounds like an attack on religion, and indirectly it is, but thats not my intentions. similar i would argue against ppl taking heroin, but i wouldnt hate someone who did. its a debate. in a debate, there often isnt a conclusion, as it is based on bias opinions.

RPGlover12

December 21st, 2001, 21:03

hey sytaylor
u dont feel it
cause u have no religion
i felt it once
i can't tell u that i felt it excatly
i was just thinking of
how close am i to god before i sleep
and i dreamt of a man telling me look in this microscope to see how close u're to god
and i did
and i saw the sky
it was beautifull
and when i woke up i knew that god accepted all my prayers
allmost all who prays alot
worship god alot
well have visions like that
and am sure 100% that ther are many people like me had some visions like this
can u explain this sytaylor
and how's my great great great great great great grand father known that there was islam and quran
can u explain this
how can u explain that there are 1.5 bilion guys are muslims worship god very hard
well this endup with nothin
of course not
maybe am not very religious
but i know lots of info about islam and other religions
i know there are alot of christians and jewish here
but why do we all of the religions tells us to worship god
and i can't tell u how the quran still the same from more than 1422 or even more
and i've got proofs that muhammed is a real prophet
12 proof
no more

and if u studies quran and bible
u'll see what they mean
and i want to ask u christian and jewish guys
is the bible of urs called the torah and gosplem or both called the bible
and do they have any diff
cause in arabian countries there is a diff between those two
:)

Jaz

December 21st, 2001, 21:09

Originally posted by sytaylor
[B]if people want to talk, let them talkOK, maybe I was a bit harsh. It's just I know how sensitive people can be to this topic and didn't want to see anyone get offended by people speaking (posting, rather ;)), without thinking.

sk8bloke22

December 21st, 2001, 21:46

yeh there are big differences between the bible and the torah. firstly, i think thw torah is the old testament (i.e moses, destruction of both temples) and the new testament was written by the christians (Jesus and beyond..lol, sounds like star wars). islam and judasim have humongous links. they both believe in abraham (the first guy to logically see the possibility of a creator of the whole world, as opposed to previous mythology based around a sun god, moon god, etc). the division between the two comes between two tribes. was was led by abraham or jacob (i forget), whilst the other was led by Issac (could be wrong there, RPG Glover, ull know better than me here). they were both brothers, but there was some dispute, and they went there separate ways, one trible forming a Jewish following, the other a following for Issac (if thats who it was), later froming the Islamic religion. wat i am certain is that they both originate from Abraham. so it seems funny that Israelis and Muslims are always fighting and always hating each other, when they are like brother religions. oh well. that would explain why these religions are based on ethical-monethiesm (the belief in one god).

[edit: whoops forgot to answer ur question. yeh there are differences. they are based on different parts in history. similar to Islam. Judasim came first, and Christianity was an offspring which came to birth as a result of a HUGE following of christ, who WAS jewish. anyway, it became very popular, and although is based on the same core elements as Judasim, it follows some very different ideas, which has caused a big clash amongst the two, in ideology. yet christianity became very institutionalised, not so much now in the western world, where liberalism has been very much implemented, allowinga muulti-cultural society. yet it is quite well-known that one of the most corrupt institutions is the Vatagan and the pope. ]

also one reason why the are a LOT of Islamic countries is becayuse they did not follow the revolutions, in particular in industry and science (eg. the enlightment period and French revolution). they remained religious. plus considering the uprise of industry in the West caused great poverty in the half of the world, a great hatred rose against capatilist models such as USA, with the reaction being a rise in fundamentalism. if a country is dominated by fundamentalism, like Afghanistan, then u r gonna get a very religious environment.

Raging Fuel

December 22nd, 2001, 02:20

Those are some nice posts sk8bloke. I'm glad I read A Brief History of Time a few days ago, so your evolution post was a lot easier to understand:D

gokuss4

December 22nd, 2001, 02:30

Originally posted by RPGlover12
how do u guys dont believe in god
of course there is a god
only one god(in muslim my reliegon)called : allah
and three gods in christian called: father ,son and the holy ghost
and other reliegons dunno what they call him
and if there wasn't a god
1st then who created this whole universe
2nd how all those reliegon came to earth
3rd how we (muslims) and all muslims say "la elah ela allah mohamed rasol allah "
and this means
"there is no god except allah and muhammed is his prophet "
can u guys proof that there is no god
of course there is a god
any body that have any reliegon believe in go d
and how muslims believe that there is a god that everybody should worship or must worship
all muslims and other reliegons
so prove me that am wrong
if u want any answers that there is allah or god please tell me and i will explain
ps am a muslim

actually christains (which is my religion though im not really religious) has 1 god but that 1 god has three parts, the father, son, and holy spirit.

sytaylor

December 22nd, 2001, 03:10

Originally posted by RPGlover12
how's my great great great great great great grand father known that there was islam and quran

because he was taught it just the way you were, he was never given the choice, he was told religion IS as are so many :(

Josep

December 22nd, 2001, 09:05

Jeez left for a few hours and this thread exploaded and no one qouted me:( hehe, j/k, i don't even remember what i was going to say to sytaylor, but something like, just respect dude, you gotta respect other religions for simply being, even if you don't believe in what they say. Plus Rpglover12 is a tender age of 13, he has pleanty of years to grow and get a better understanding and grasp of life. And even later in life if Rpglover12's religion stays absolutly the same, there's obviously nothing wrong with that. I believe that understanding other religions and taking serious thought to each one is a very good step to learning your true self, ONE of the ways anyway. Got any mormons reading this forum? however you spell it, i'd just like to see a mormon throw in some input, it'd be interesting...

RPGlover12

December 22nd, 2001, 09:45

Originally posted by sytaylor

because he was taught it just the way you were, he was never given the choice, he was told religion IS as are so many :(
ok can u explain
when i read the history of egypt
i wanted to know when was it an islamic country
i found out it was from 641 but muhammed was died this time
wow
this is the history of my country
and islam started from 611
how can u explain this sytaylor
it was from 611

could u explain this sytaylor

allah said in the quran

if u made a wish i'll will make it true unless

i will not continue it cause i can't translate it

and it did come true
i wished for my dad to bring me a new graphic card
after excatly a 2 days it came

and i also wished
for dad to bring me black and white in the same day he brought it to me

can u explain this

and allah doesn't make the wishes come true

like
i'll give u an example

like if there is a begger wanted to marry comeron diaz
it wont come true
in other words dont wish the impossible
and if u dont do what god wanted u to do
like u didn't pray at all
didn't read a page of quran
etc............................
do u get it guys

ok

so how do u explain this sytaylor

sk8bloke22

December 22nd, 2001, 11:29

i doubt god/allah would give u a graphics card and black & white lol. and surely wouldnt u wish for something like an end to world poverty instead. but hey man, as josep said, u r only 13, and things change when u get like just 3 years older. that doesnt mean u can defend ur beliefs, etc, it just means ull be able to argue better in a few years time.

RPGlover12

December 22nd, 2001, 13:22

wont change that much sk8bloke

maybe am 13
and many things will change
except some stuff
like
my religion

my thinkin about what people do right now

my handwrittin(just kiddin)

lots of other aren't gonna change

i will always think there is one god
and muhammed is his prophet
and this is not gonna change for ever
even in the judgement day

if ur a muslim
u'll see what do i mean
ok just try it out
:)

sk8bloke22

December 22nd, 2001, 13:39

there are muslims who have seen that god doesnt exist too.

Slougi

December 22nd, 2001, 13:53

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
also one reason why the are a LOT of Islamic countries is becayuse they did not follow the revolutions, in particular in industry and science (eg. the enlightment period and French revolution). they remained religious. plus considering the uprise of industry in the West caused great poverty in the half of the world, a great hatred rose against capatilist models such as USA, with the reaction being a rise in fundamentalism. if a country is dominated by fundamentalism, like Afghanistan, then u r gonna get a very religious environment.
Yes but many religious countries are not fundamentalist ones. Also consider the dark-ages of europe and the crusades. Aren't they the equivalent of todays al-qaida in some way? Also during that period of time arabic countries were the developed ones and much of the greek and roman science is known to us only from arabic writings, what I mean is that countries generally rise and fall, it's continuous and will go on, some day the usa will not be the world's mightiest country anymore. That won't happen any time soon, but face it, it will happen. I'm not anti us here just stating some stuff I've been thinking about. :blush:

sytaylor

December 22nd, 2001, 15:02

Originally posted by RPGlover12

allah said in the quran

how do you know? because its written? that is my fundamental problem, its all word of mouth and a series of books... and joseph, i may not appear to have respect for other religions but thats because im arguing a point, in everyday life im not like this i promise :)

Josep

December 22nd, 2001, 21:30

i dunno sytaylor, it just seems your point is soo, "Give me the bones of christ and i'll believe you," type thing, and some things just don't work like that. Christopher columbus discovered america, why do we believe this? because it was written, is this true? Technically no, but offically he did find it first. Did shakespeare actually write all his plays? or did he steal them from other great writers and get extra help? We say he wrote them because its written, i'd like to make this a bit longer but i don't have the time, be back in a while;)

sytaylor

December 23rd, 2001, 01:44

yeah but thats taking things to another level.. shakespeare is always connected with his plays, the name sticks, there is a definite consistancy... i dont want to bones of christ, to be honest they wouldnt proove a thing... what id like is for someone to see my point that a lot of religion is based on what your told by other people who have learned from other people who were taught by other people, until you get to a book that was written by someone that was told by someone who was told by someone else... and so on...

and then you get to the fundamental point... all humans have a survival instincts and an imagination... combine the two with fear and death... as well as a lack of explination for why there is life and from my vantage point it is easy to see why people would create a religion out of what they saw around them to fill the gaps... i absollutley do not want the bones of christ, i just think its strange... almost ironic how fitting it is that you have to have faith in something you cant proove, and it has to be true faith... dont you see how well that fits in? having this true faith gets rid of your fear, it stops you questioning... it works so well its scary, and my point is what is out there is to me evidence that we dont know the thruth at all...

there may or may not be a creator, but i honestly do believe religions are way off the mark as far as historical accuracy goes... as far as ethics and life goes i think religions are very good, even faith... its just i disagree with so much of what is written i dont believe it

Reznor007

December 23rd, 2001, 06:58

I used to be christian until I was around 13-14, then I started questioning things I was taught, and now I'm agnostic(there may be or may not be a god/whatever).

When people say "I don't know how someone could not believe in god" I start thinking about how people could think there is not a god, and this giant glaring thing pops up that screams "No evidence at all".

And I find it funny that 90% of all christian holidays are stolen from pagan holidays :)

Just for fun, some people should read this (http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm)

Josep

December 23rd, 2001, 08:59

Originally posted by Reznor007

And I find it funny that 90% of all christian holidays are stolen from pagan holidays :)

I don't understand, maybe its just me, whats pagan holidays?

Reznor007

December 23rd, 2001, 09:27

Originally posted by Josep

I don't understand, maybe its just me, whats pagan holidays?

A Pagan is a person with a different belief system. Christians consider Pagan ideas/people bad. A Wiccan is considered Pagan also.

And about the holidays themselves, read this. (http://www.nobeliefs.com/facts.htm#anchor189702)

Raging Fuel

December 23rd, 2001, 09:48

Technically, isn't a Pagan someone who believes in more than one god?

sytaylor

December 23rd, 2001, 19:38

Originally posted by Reznor007
I(there may be or may not be a god/whatever

preciseley... like it or not there is no way of knowing there is a god without convincing yoursel first

RPGlover12

December 23rd, 2001, 21:05

Originally posted by sytaylor
yeah but thats taking things to another level.. shakespeare is always connected with his plays, the name sticks, there is a definite consistancy... i dont want to bones of christ, to be honest they wouldnt proove a thing... what id like is for someone to see my point that a lot of religion is based on what your told by other people who have learned from other people who were taught by other people, until you get to a book that was written by someone that was told by someone who was told by someone else... and so on...

and then you get to the fundamental point... all humans have a survival instincts and an imagination... combine the two with fear and death... as well as a lack of explination for why there is life and from my vantage point it is easy to see why people would create a religion out of what they saw around them to fill the gaps... i absollutley do not want the bones of christ, i just think its strange... almost ironic how fitting it is that you have to have faith in something you cant proove, and it has to be true faith... dont you see how well that fits in? having this true faith gets rid of your fear, it stops you questioning... it works so well its scary, and my point is what is out there is to me evidence that we dont know the thruth at all...

there may or may not be a creator, but i honestly do believe religions are way off the mark as far as historical accuracy goes... as far as ethics and life goes i think religions are very good, even faith... its just i disagree with so much of what is written i dont believe it

ok i'll give u the best proofs in the whole world

1st Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad foretold, as if he was reading the future from an open book.

2nd Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also brought an Arabic Quran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Quran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the quran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Koran.
Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty, and splendor of this Glorious Quran
3rd
The life history of this Noble Prophet was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he was ever mindful and fearful of Allah
4th
Allah instilled great love for Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him. This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him
Till today, those who believe in Muhammad honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him, even if but once.
5th
All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad, who is the most influential human in history.
Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad, the believers in him will greet him and ask Allah to bless him. They do such with full hearts and true love for him
6th
There has never been nor will there ever be a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters-small and large alike-as has this Noble Prophet
7th
Since his day, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet has been followed by individuals from all races, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad out of compulsion or coercion or because they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.
Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (may Allah's blessings peace be upon him), chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. Most people who have followed this Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) have done so not to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of following this Prophet. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion.
My brethren! All of this clearly indicates to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet was truly and really Allah's messenger and that he was not just a man who claimed prophet hood or spoke about Allah without knowledge.

8th
With all this, Muhammad came with a great religion in its credal and legal make-up.
Muhammad described Allah with qualities of complete perfection, and at the same time in a manner that is free of ascribing to Him any imperfection. Neither the philosophers or the wise could ever describe Allah like such. Indeed it is impossible to imagine that any human mind could conceive of an existing being that possesses such complete ability, knowledge, and greatness; Who has subdued the creation; Who has encompassed everything in the universe, small or large; and Who possesses such perfect mercy.
Nor is it in the ability of any human being to place a perfect law based upon justice, equality, mercy and objectivity for all human activity on earth like the laws that Muhammad brought for all spheres of human activity - like buying and selling, marriage and divorce, renting, testimony, custody, and all other contracts that are necessary to uphold life and civilization on earth.
9th
It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom,, morals, good manners, nobleness of characters as what this honorable Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought.
In a full and complete manner, Muhammad spread a teaching regarding character and manners toward one' parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching.
All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger did not bring an) of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he received from the One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture and perfection

thats it
can u prove that am wrong in all that
prove it
prove that there is no god
prove that islam isn't true

Reznor007

December 24th, 2001, 01:00

The Christian Jesus is also loved by many, supposedly fortold the future and all that stuff...but that doesn't mean he really exists. Tons of people think Sherlock Holmes existed, but he was simply made up.

sytaylor

December 24th, 2001, 04:24

umm, thats a nice story, but where did it come from? how do you know its real? sure it may give you evidence, but to me it just seems like a lot of gaps being filled, "allah did this, allah did that, allah is holy"... i mean CMON!

There has never been nor will there ever be a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters-small and large alike-as has this Noble Prophet ... PROOVE IT!!!

it is impossible to imagine that any human mind could conceive of an existing being that possesses such complete ability, knowledge, and greatness

why?

It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom,, morals, good manners, nobleness of characters as what this honorable Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought.

so your saying im limited to what i can do because of what this 1400 year old book says? why is anything impossible, because you believe it? impossibility is relative to the individual beliefs

my point is preciseley that you CAN NOT proove there is no god, NOR can you proove there is a god... what you can proove its a load of historical writings that give people hope... but there is nothing to say there is god... every peice of religon shows how god helps us live our lives... but mine is fine without believing in god, im not a bad person... my proof is that the beauty of ife does not require belief, but rather a will to survive and the ability to appreciate what you have

RPGlover12

December 24th, 2001, 09:34

... PROOVE IT
Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he had no prior knowledge of Religion or any previously sent Message. He remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad with the quran that we now have between our hands. This quran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews or Christians were able to belie him regarding anything that he said.
why
do u want to know why
cause when allah got down the quran and gebrael(he's an angel that brought down the quran)told it to him for the first time muhammed learnt it and he memorized it for the first time he listened to him
and even when he say it to his friends they memorized it for the first time
so how do u explain this sytaylor
my point is preciseley that you CAN NOT proove there is no god, NOR can you proove there is a god... what you can proove its a load of historical writings that give people hope... but there is nothing to say there is god... every peice of religon shows how god helps us live our lives... but mine is fine without believing in god, im not a bad person... my proof is that the beauty of ife does not require belief, but rather a will to survive and the ability to appreciate what you have

u dont man what will happen to u in the judgement day
first of all , all who believed in god the anti crist wont hurt them
wont even touch them
2nd he wont go to hell
3rd
he wont feel the hunger of anything
4th
every tree will say to a muslim
there is a non believer in god behind me come and kill him
5th
any non believer that will look at allah , allah will look at them with his angered eye
and his skin will begin to melt
i wont tell u no more about the judgement day
i think this is enough
ok

RPGlover12

December 24th, 2001, 09:41

well i got another proof

The legal and credal make-up of the religion that the Messenger, Muhammad, (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He who created the heavens and the earth is the One Who sent down this great law and upright religion.
The degree of inimitability of the Divine law that was sent down upon Muhammad is to the same degree of inimitability of the Divine creation of the heavens and earth. For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allah's law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him).

and iwill get more proofs for u sytaylor

Reznor007

December 24th, 2001, 09:45

I have a 10,000 year old book that says I am the ruler of everything, and this book is 100% infallible. I have no evidence whatsoever to support this, but you had better believe it or you will die a horrible death, and your soul will rot in hell.

What was the point of me saying that? Well, can you prove thatis false? No, then it must be true...

That is a very weak point in this type of discussion. Religeous people rely on their book as solid proof...but it is not proof. It is merely a collection of stories to satisfy questions people had back in the old times that science couldn't explain.

Now, I don't really believe in god/allah/whatever...but if you can give me some hard evidence instead of some quotes from an old book, I'll believe it.

RPGlover12

December 24th, 2001, 10:18

wanna see a real miracle from god
ok here is one

http://www.emulation64.com/images/TreeinRukufacingKaba.gif
see it and u'll get impressed
and its been said in the quran
"Their intention is to extinguish Allah's light (by blowing) with their mouths. But Allah will complete His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it). Al Qur'an 61:8

Raging Fuel

December 24th, 2001, 10:37

Don't post links to geocities pics. They don't show up. I went to the root site and uploaded the pic onto the Emulation64 server and edited your post accordingly.

RPGlover12

December 24th, 2001, 12:27

ok thnx raging fuel
but most of the miracles of allah is in this site
but am going to post the site anyway :)
thnx again

sytaylor

December 24th, 2001, 14:03

Originally posted by Reznor007
I have a 10,000 year old book that says I am the ruler of everything, and this book is 100% infallible. I have no evidence whatsoever to support this, but you had better believe it or you will die a horrible death, and your soul will rot in hell.

What was the point of me saying that? Well, can you prove thatis false? No, then it must be true...

That is a very weak point in this type of discussion. Religeous people rely on their book as solid proof...but it is not proof. It is merely a collection of stories to satisfy questions people had back in the old times that science couldn't explain.

Now, I don't really believe in god/allah/whatever...but if you can give me some hard evidence instead of some quotes from an old book, I'll believe it.

exactly, im not asking you to tell me what you have been told again, im telling you to proove to me why i should believe what is written, the evidence you give rpglover, its all "you want proof, this is what was said"...

Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate

thats what you have been told, but you dont even know that!!

and im sorry, but that picture is a tree... a tree! make of it what you like but i see a tree and a bunch of people saying "it resmebles something we base our lives round, it must be holy!!

For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allah's law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him).

do you not see, all htis proof is telling you what is and isnt possible, nowhere are you offered something to convince you.. you are told that Allah's law could not be created by man... but what i say to you is that it was, religion is created by man (in my view) to try and explain why we are here, and for somer reason everyone is hung up on trying to proove that there is a god by quoting passages with loop holed metaphoric meanings instead of actually going out and looking for the evidence themselves... reading a book and indeed believing a book does not make you a good person, just an easily guided person.

As i stated before i dont want the bones of christ, im not after the most absolute evidence, i just want more than some passages from historical writings and a picture of a tree.

its like --->:alien: <--- it looks like the holy leader of alien land from upon high! it must be a sign! *bows head*, you know and i know that i just made that up, but say 1,000 years from now after i preech the alien land religion to everyone, someone see's that they would make it out to be something from their 3 eyed leader:blush: connecting two things without explanation with an explanation with no theory or evidence behind it is the source of a lot of the worlds conspiricy theories, religions, belief structures, and to be honest i just dont see why people buy it???

Slougi

December 24th, 2001, 15:01

I think so I am. But am I?
Can you even prove that this is all reality?
Nothing can ever really be proved. ???
:alien: ;)

sytaylor

December 24th, 2001, 15:02

Originally posted by Slougi
I think so I am. But am I?
Can you even prove that this is all reality?
Nothing can ever really be proved. ???
:alien: ;)

totally different argument, i can proove that i can post this... watch

/me presses post and if this doesnt appear on this emutalk.net topic im wrong... but im not, i know that

sytaylor

December 24th, 2001, 15:03

see :devil: :p

Zero

December 24th, 2001, 16:14

Lol :D
nuff said about this topic

sk8bloke22

December 24th, 2001, 21:33

rpg glover, ur evidence is almost all from mohammad, i.e: the prohet said , "...." and so it must be true. how do u know ur prohpet even existed, if he didnt wouldnt that defy all ur beliefs and prrof of god/allah. furthermore, u say the quaran, i seriously doubt u will eva find the original copy, who knows how much that book has been altered, changed. in fact u dont even know that anything in the koran/bible/torah is true. it could be, everything could be word for word. but if it isnt u hav no basis of evidence, unless u use science or logic. science is falsifiable, i.e it must be able to be accused as flase, as well as being proved as correct to be as science. whilst logic is fact shown through a serious of factualy progressions. often believers in religion or ethical monethism ( belief in one god as the creator of the world) use science and logic to defy aethiesm. this is a better way to argue against ppl like me or sy taylor....otherwise all we need to say is "how do u know". of ocurse u could say that u know within ur heart, but then its easy to argue that is simply succesful brain washing/ socialisation by the religious community. theres plenty of stuff on the net to look at.

p.s: like the pic, but in my mind there are plenty of weird things in the world that happen through weather anomalies, etc. its just a wonder how stone henge in england was built, but it was done (although by humans), even today know one knows how the huge heavy blocks were carried by man. there are plenty of unexplained mysterious, doesnt mean it was a miracle. still interesting.

pj64er

December 24th, 2001, 22:54

hav u guys even looked at the topic of this thread?

its about the existance of God, not which God is the real God (or whats his real name)! Stop trying to convert(im looking at u, RPGLover) each other to ur own religion. Let ppl believe in their own religion.

and also, how could any of u ask for physical evidence? if there were any, this thread would not exist! this 'debate' would be over a long time ago. if God wanted us to know His presence, wouldnt He make it obvious to us? if He didnt, do u think u could outdo God Himself?

and those of u who trys to answer this question w/ philosophy, dont try in this area, philosophy creates more questions than it answers.

fortunately, everyone here gets to find out the answer to this debate in the future...

sk8bloke22

December 25th, 2001, 02:14

the theory of god cant be physically proven or disproven directly, for example u cant get god to speak to everyone as proof or u cant prove that man was DEFINITELY 100% created by a process of evolution. but u can prove/disprove elements of the theory of creationalism (man was created by god).

for example: (btw this info is taken from the site i linked)

"The Speed of Light
Light travels at the incredible speed of 186,000 miles per second. As fast as this is, it is still not nearly fast enough to cover the known universe in a short time. Because of the enormous size of the universe, we measure the distance between stars, galaxies, and clusters of galaxies in light years. A light year is the distance that light travels, at 186,000 miles per second, in one year. That's about 5.8 trillion miles. Now, if we say that something is ten light years away, that means that it would take light ten years to go from earth to that distant point. How is any of this relevant to creationism and the age of the universe?

We can tell how far away certain objects are through many independent methods. We've known that some galaxies are as far away as a billion light years for quite some time now. As I said before, a billion light years means that it would take light a billion years to travel that distance. The problem is that we can see these distant objects -- we can detect their light. The light that we detect with our eyes and our computers travelled that huge distance of a billion light years to reach earth. Again, let me remind you that light travels at a fixed rate -- it never changes. Now, for that light to travel those billion light years, it would have to have been travelling for a billion years. The only problem is, according to the bible, the universe is only about 6,000 years old. If that were true, then the light from these distant galaxies would only have had enough time to travel 6,000 light years -- they would not have reached earth yet. But we know that the light from those galaxies has reached earth, and that that light has been travelling for a billion years. For that light to travel from those distant galaxies to earth, it would have to have been given a billion years worth of time. Unfortunately, according to the bible, that amount of time has not passed yet. If the bible were true, then the most distant objects we would be able to see would be about 6,000 light years away, because anything further than that would not have enough time to send its light to us.

This argument is proof that the universe is older than the bible says it is. All defenses against it use an a priori bias against an old earth, and are therefore worthless. The bible is wrong. "

This is as i said earlier, an example of scientific evidence. it showsa flaw in the bible, take as u like, it is a flaw, quite a big one in my eyes, but anyway; if theres one flaw there are probably loads.....a flawed theory perhaps. it may not proove much, still significant in an arguement.

pj64er

December 25th, 2001, 02:44

not really sk8bloke,

u hav disproved the validity of the Bible...so?

God could still exist, or He may not!

also, since God is all-powerful, he coulda created the Universe and Earth in such a way that it seems to us, mere mortals and our science, that it is older than 6,000 yrs old. Any point u make can be countered in a similar fashion. geddit?

btw, i dont believe in creationism.

64ultramaniac

December 25th, 2001, 04:50

Well in Bible it says that one day for God can be like 1000 years so how can you conlude that according to Bible the univerce is only 6000 years old? So when it says that God needed 6 "days" to create our solar system, this means thousands(maybe more)of
years(according to our meaning of time).Now just imagine in how
many years(for us)it took him for the whole universe.Ofcource for
him it could only be days,anyway you can't compare our meaning
of time with God's meaning of time.So according to Bible the univerce can be billion of years old so his statement can easily be total garbage.Anyway someone can come up with many other "attacks" to Bible,the issue is that those who believe in God
are in a disadvantage position cause they're the ones who have to prove something that people can't actually see but that simply doesn't mean that doesn't exist.And that won't change until God will decide to do something about it!!The problem is how many people will be ready if this will happen!

Slougi

December 25th, 2001, 06:08

Originally posted by sytaylor

totally different argument, i can proove that i can post this... watch

/me presses post and if this doesnt appear on this emutalk.net topic im wrong... but im not, i know that
Yes you KNOW but can you prove it?
I could be dreaming now and could have made you up.
OMG I DON'T EVEN NECESSARILY EXIST!

We can't even prove that we exist, it is thus impossible for us to prove wether god exists or not :p

RPGlover12

December 25th, 2001, 13:21

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
rpg glover, ur evidence is almost all from mohammad, i.e: the prohet said , "...." and so it must be true. how do u know ur prohpet even existed, if he didnt wouldnt that defy all ur beliefs and prrof of god/allah. furthermore, u say the quaran, i seriously doubt u will eva find the original copy, who knows how much that book has been altered, changed. in fact u dont even know that anything in the koran/bible/torah is true. it could be, everything could be word for word. but if it isnt u hav no basis of evidence, unless u use science or logic. science is falsifiable, i.e it must be able to be accused as flase, as well as being proved as correct to be as science. whilst logic is fact shown through a serious of factualy progressions. often believers in religion or ethical monethism ( belief in one god as the creator of the world) use science and logic to defy aethiesm. this is a better way to argue against ppl like me or sy taylor....otherwise all we need to say is "how do u know". of ocurse u could say that u know within ur heart, but then its easy to argue that is simply succesful brain washing/ socialisation by the religious community. theres plenty of stuff on the net to look at.

p.s: like the pic, but in my mind there are plenty of weird things in the world that happen through weather anomalies, etc. its just a wonder how stone henge in england was built, but it was done (although by humans), even today know one knows how the huge heavy blocks were carried by man. there are plenty of unexplained mysterious, doesnt mean it was a miracle. still interesting.

well u dont know much stuff about religion
let me tell u some stuff
and if u want to know if there is a god or not
well here is it

when moses was talking to allah
moses :"i want to see u god"
allah : "so that u can prove it to ur people or ur heart become comforted "
moses :"so that my heart become comforted "
allah :"ok get some birds and cut off their heads and put them in diff part's mountains or ground or in any place"
so moses did what god told him to do and he cut off alot of birds heads and put them in diff places
moses :"ok what then"
allah :"see now what will happen"
all the birds were brought back to life and their heads came back to thier original body

and moses told him "wow am really satisfied "
i dont know if its taken of the torah or bible or not
so dont ask me i didn't study the bible or torah

and muhammed is a true prophet
as i told u before

and the quran is the book for allah
he even said that in the quran
anyway

muhammed was the last prophet
cause if he wasn't

he wouldn't have all this proprties
no body had ever recieved such love or respect

he was truthfull trustworthy

he was a big worshipper for god

whatever he did all muslims do as he did excatly

and he was a true prophet cause in the old days nobody could travel from saudia to jeruaselm without taking atleast a month in traveling

he met a new kind of animals called the nok
it looks like a horse but have wings
it took him from kaba to jerusalm and went to the 7 skys
and met all the prophets and all this stuff its a long story
and went to jerusalm in 1 day !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

its a great story

and to believe that he is a true prophet

there is a sorah in quran muhammed said that any body wanted money read this sorah so that allah will give u more money
and it's true
lots of his friends did
and they did have money and their worshipping for god is still the same except it raised more

and the first quran is still in saudia arabia right now
and if u check it and checked other quran u'll find that it is the same
nothin changed in it
nor will be
or the judgement day will come this day

do u know when someone tryed to change it he wasn't accepted in all the arabian and muslim countries

even he was rich
very rich

so i think u should read the quran
and am going to read the bible :)

sk8bloke22

December 26th, 2001, 17:14

sorry m8, but u hav being reading something else. show me in the koran where it says that. moses was not even alive when mohammad was. look he aint our prophet, all he did was sav the jews from egypt years ago, during the time of the 3rd pharoah, ramses. theres a whole corny story, and we celebrate it on passover. thats it, hes not an idol, hes definitely not our messiah, and i seriously doubt he had time to chat with mohammad, considering he died during the exodus. i think u just made that up.

sytaylor

December 27th, 2001, 01:22

Originally posted by Slougi

Yes you KNOW but can you prove it?
I could be dreaming now and could have made you up.
OMG I DON'T EVEN NECESSARILY EXIST!

We can't even prove that we exist, it is thus impossible for us to prove wether god exists or not :p

thats just you questioning your own senses and has nothing to do with reality... if reality was not real what is the point in living, from creation point of view it has no purpose cos it doesnt proove or show anything to the higher power... form an evolutionary view, well, you cant have something that is not real be real! its an oxymoron!

you can't compare our meaning of time with god's..

umm how do you know gods time? by what was recorded by humnas as six days... and that argument has been disprooven...

and rpglover, youre beginning yo get frustrating, because you counter our views with more stories from the quaran when we question the usefulness of doing that! how can you trust what is written there?! you cannot let go of muhhamed being a true prophet etc! why? because you've been taught it as truth, i ask you rpg, PLEASE try for a second to see our sode of this... there is no way of knowing what is written in the quran is true

sk8bloke22

December 27th, 2001, 02:39

quoting the koran is fine. but that aint quoting the koran. since when did moses hav a chat to mohammad...its that kinda stuff that is annyoing.

RPGlover12

December 29th, 2001, 09:43

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
sorry m8, but u hav being reading something else. show me in the koran where it says that. moses was not even alive when mohammad was. look he aint our prophet, all he did was sav the jews from egypt years ago, during the time of the 3rd pharoah, ramses. theres a whole corny story, and we celebrate it on passover. thats it, hes not an idol, hes definitely not our messiah, and i seriously doubt he had time to chat with mohammad, considering he died during the exodus. i think u just made that up.
well the quran is pretty big to finish
we have to finish it in 30 days or more
there are some guys that finished the quran in 15 days
he knows alot about the quran
he knows tons and tons about it
slougi could know better than me in all the quran
if he read all the quran then
he will know where is this story
i dont remember excatlly where
but i still remember it
and i dont remember much about the quran cause i haven't read it in along time
we shuold read it in ramadan
but i couldn't :(
maybe next ramadan
and i still didn't finish gettin proofs about god
dont think that i surrenderd about it
am still lookin for miracles
well i know a story but i can't say it cause there is untranslated words in arabic

its a big story
just try to search around proofs about islamic stuff in the net
and u'll see
go to www.talkislam.com
and u'll see tons of stuff
ok
;)
:p

RPGlover12

December 29th, 2001, 09:54

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
quoting the koran is fine. but that aint quoting the koran. since when did moses hav a chat to mohammad...its that kinda stuff that is annyoing.
well moses didn't have chat with muhammed
mohammed is the one who had a chat with moses
when mohamed went to the 7 skies (called the esraa and merag)
he met moses and all other prophets
when he met Ibrahim
god told him upthere to pray 5000 prayers per day
Ibrahim told mohammed its to much
and allah told 500
Ibrahim told mohamed its still to much
allah told mohammed 50
Ibrahim told muhammed its still too much
allah told muhammed 15
Ibrahim told muhammed its still much
and finally allah told muhammed 5 prayers
Ibrahim told him thats enough

this what was between Ibrahim and mohamed
he had a small conversation between moses and himself
its not that big and its not an important thing

so he talked to moses

and talked to all other prophets like zaks adams,mary,joseph,
and lots other

and try to read the quran sk8bloke
ok
:P

DuDe

December 29th, 2001, 10:17

Originally posted by RPGlover12

and talked to all other prophets like zaks

:)
I always knew that there was someone divine about me :)

Who is this prophet anyway? I never heard of him...

RPGlover12

December 29th, 2001, 10:22

well he is a massenger from god
he told him to make his people believe in god
and make them worship him
i dont know much about him
cause i haven't read his story
he also didn't have any miracles
like soliman ,muhammed,moses,jesus and many others

Slougi

December 29th, 2001, 10:33

Look RPGlover12 I am an arab but as I said in the very beginning of this thread I don't believe in God. Not all aarabs are muslims, especially in Lebanon, around 40% of the population is christian and anyway muslims aren't too chritical of religion here either, i.e. we go out and get drunk and have fun :p

RPGlover12

December 29th, 2001, 12:51

Originally posted by Slougi
Look RPGlover12 I am an arab but as I said in the very beginning of this thread I don't believe in God. Not all aarabs are muslims, especially in Lebanon, around 40% of the population is christian and anyway muslims aren't too chritical of religion here either, i.e. we go out and get drunk and have fun :p
well here either
and ur right about lebanon
but most of the arabs are muslims
and there are somestuff that a muslim shouldn't do like the kabba2r(major sins)
i know a site for it
here is the site
http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/majorsins.html
these are the major sins for muslims
and not 40 percent of lebanon are christians that was in 1998
now its only 15 percent
but they aren't too chritical of religion too
even in egypt,jordan,iraq(well not as much as others),and other arabian countries that i forgot to mention
and the most religous guys in the whole world is afghanstan,pakistan,iran,saudia arabia,and any other i forgot to mention
but there is much
see the kabbar to find out whats haram

The Shadow

December 30th, 2001, 05:00

This thread is going nowhere. You're not going to convert a non-Muslim into being a Muslim by arguement in most cases, so you might as well quit while your ahead, that's my two cents. :)

sk8bloke22

December 30th, 2001, 19:42

rpg glover, im not doubting koran, im not even questioning in this case. but u hav got something very wrong here. moses wasnt a prophet. this aint an attack on you. just seriously its dangerous to make even small mistakes as that. even u can prove from the koron (i.e quote from it), where it says this, then fine, ill understand how u formed this idea.

sytaylor

December 30th, 2001, 21:15

rpg... when you stop quoting the quoran and give me an opinion as to why i should believe it i will listen to your quotes... but every single one of them has something in common.. theyre all stories of which you can not proove (nor disproove), you just believe... answer me without quoting anyone or giving me a story, tell me WHY you believe:alien:

Slougi

December 30th, 2001, 21:29

Originally posted by RPGlover12

well here either
and ur right about lebanon
but most of the arabs are muslims
and there are somestuff that a muslim shouldn't do like the kabba2r(major sins)
i know a site for it
here is the site
http://www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/majorsins.html
these are the major sins for muslims
and not 40 percent of lebanon are christians that was in 1998
now its only 15 percent
but they aren't too chritical of religion too
even in egypt,jordan,iraq(well not as much as others),and other arabian countries that i forgot to mention
and the most religous guys in the whole world is afghanstan,pakistan,iran,saudia arabia,and any other i forgot to mention
but there is much
see the kabbar to find out whats haram

LMAO!
In three years from 40% to 15%?!?!?
I don't think so :p
Anyway whereever you go in the arab world Lebanon is the most tolerant. Even more so than Egypt or Jordan. ;)

RPGlover12

December 30th, 2001, 22:48

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
rpg glover, im not doubting koran, im not even questioning in this case. but u hav got something very wrong here. moses wasnt a prophet. this aint an attack on you. just seriously its dangerous to make even small mistakes as that. even u can prove from the koron (i.e quote from it), where it says this, then fine, ill understand how u formed this idea.
well i dont know
as i told u before
i didn't finish the quran before
i couldn't cause i missed ramadan :(
and this story is everywhere in the quran
am researchin for it everywhere
all muslims know this story
its a big story
i wish i could remember if he saw allah or not
but i dont think so
and most of it are speeches from the prophet about the esraa and merag
i dont remember it that much the story
but am still searchin all over it
i even called my best friend to search for it
and even his mom
and his sister are searchin for it
all my friends know this story and teachers ,parents
in other words all muslims
i wish i find it

and if i told u the chapter and the sorah will u go to read it sk8bloke ?????

RPGlover12

December 30th, 2001, 23:24

Originally posted by sytaylor
rpg... when you stop quoting the quoran and give me an opinion as to why i should believe it i will listen to your quotes... but every single one of them has something in common.. theyre all stories of which you can not proove (nor disproove), you just believe... answer me without quoting anyone or giving me a story, tell me WHY you believe:alien:
wow man u gave me the question that i wanted
well
i'll tell u somethin

well i was born a muslim
lived in a muslim family
lived in a muslim town
and everythin
when i was young i alwaysed read the quran
i never left it
and i've got many pics of miracles
like a fish written on it allah
a rock
and many stuff

and i do believe in god
cause there is a thing called the prayers feeling
all who have strong believe in allah will feel it
when u're prayin u feel that allah stands behind u
when u step down
called the sogod(dunno whats its name in english but its that i put my face,knees,my hands ,my legs)
u feel that god is just above u
and he even said if u wish when u are in sogod position u're wish 90% will be done
and its true
most of my wishes are done
and muhammed(maybe peace and blessing be upon him)
said if u want to see me in ur dreams
do somethin in friday
in the friday prayers
(see a prayer info or somethin like that cause am not going to translate it all cause am not prof in english)
we read the fatha and a small sorah he said read a certain sorah's and pray on me 70 prayers and ask for forgivennes from god and mention some of allah names and u'll see me in ur dreams
and its true
i tried it two times
it worked
and i'll tell u somethin
once i dreamt of me going to the meridian and there was the prophet and i couldn't see him cause there was some guys stoppin me from seein him
i tried to but they told me uwont see him unless u start prayin again
and it did work
i dreamt of him once i restarted prayin again
its 100 percent true

and i've got a big proof

who created the earth
who created us
who created islam
who created religion
who created the first basic cells
who created the first day on earth
who created the last day on earth

how when Ibrahim dreamt to slatter his son
when he got the knife he put it on his neck and moved it back and forward on his neck to cut it off
it didn't
he then asked allah why does the knife doesn't cut of my sons head
he told him i told the knife not to cut

and i want to ask u a favor

go to a library and read a book about the islamic religion
and u'll see

how earth was created

who created earth

was it really created in 7 days

who created jins

and in islam

allah said that if all the jins and people united to make one chapter like the quran had they all failed

no body could make a chapter of a quran

form 1400 years till now nobody has changed the quran

nor the speeches of muhammed(maybe peace and blessin be upon him)

still the same

how could u prove all of this

if u can answer my questions

just tell me

ok :P

Reznor007

December 31st, 2001, 01:49

Originally posted by RPGlover12

well i was born a muslim
lived in a muslim family
lived in a muslim town
and everythin
when i was young i alwaysed read the quran
i never left it

That's the problem. You only know that because it was forced down your throat(not meant to be offensive, but from the situation, realize that it was). You were never given a chance to go out and find what you think is right, you were TOLD that was right from the day you were born.

Try to look at the topic from the other perspective.

sytaylor

December 31st, 2001, 03:56

Originally posted by RPGlover12

and i've got a big proof

who created the earth
who created us
who created islam
who created religion
who created the first basic cells
who created the first day on earth
who created the last day on earth
if u can answer my questions

just tell me

ok :P

I DONT KNOW!!!!! and i dont think being taught something from birth is enough proof! if just means you have been taught something and believe it!!

RPGlover12

December 31st, 2001, 08:37

Originally posted by Reznor007

That's the problem. You only know that because it was forced down your throat(not meant to be offensive, but from the situation, realize that it was). You were never given a chance to go out and find what you think is right, you were TOLD that was right from the day you were born.

Try to look at the topic from the other perspective.
i was never forced to

they ask u which religion u want to be when ur 7
i read all of them
read 2 copies of bible
read 2 copies of torah
read 2 copies of quran

when iread the quran

i dont know i felt somethin like shever

i found out that the bible has been changed

and so does the torah

cause when i read the quran the 2nd time
i read the words carefully
i really liked it

i was given a chance to become non believer

when i was 6th i really asked my self this

who created the earth
who created the plants
who created us
who created religions

and note when i read the bible and torah
i felt that it handwritten even if i was 7
but when i read the quran
a god made it
impossible to be hand written
and then i studied the islam
i found out that it was never changed
from 1400 years
tell now
that why i believed in god
and i trusted my self
when i believed in god
i found out he is much more powerfull from us
like when "abraha" tried to destroy the kaba with his elephants
allah made the birds hold down its food
and when i left it it came down on abraha's head
and he was died because of their food
do u see how small it is
and how much damage it did

its impossible
right
but when i studied this part
i found it was allah's power that is powerfull enough to make it destroy abraha

so there is so many stories to make u believe
but am not enough with learnin islam

if someone like a shiek talked to u he will make u believe
am sure 100 %

a shiek made a guy who is totaly unbeliever made him believe
i dont know how

its impossible

i couldn't believe it when i heard it at first

but i found out it was true

ok
:P
just learn islam please sytaylor or any other non believer

ok

RPGlover12

December 31st, 2001, 08:39

Originally posted by sytaylor

I DONT KNOW!!!!! and i dont think being taught something from birth is enough proof! if just means you have been taught something and believe it!!
well i wasn't tought it

when i was born i was born muslim
they made me muslim as i said before

but i also didn't believe untill i read the quran
and studied islam

i liked it

and i studied it well

so read the last post to see what was the rest of the story
ok
:P

Josep

December 31st, 2001, 09:34

Josep

December 31st, 2001, 09:35

Originally posted by Josep
Rpglover12 is a tender age of 13, he has pleanty of years to grow and get a better understanding and grasp of life. And even later in life if Rpglover12's religion stays absolutly the same, there's obviously nothing wrong with that.

i'm qouting myself, this is bad, man i didn't think this thread would go this long, im impressed, hopefully this comes to a resolution, but as the world goes, who knows when a resolution will come to the world...

sorry 'bout that double post, i didn't mean it:)

RPGlover12

December 31st, 2001, 11:50

welcome back josep i was going to make a thread about where are u
any way try to post with us

RPGlover12

December 31st, 2001, 15:23

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
rpg glover, im not doubting koran, im not even questioning in this case. but u hav got something very wrong here. moses wasnt a prophet. this aint an attack on you. just seriously its dangerous to make even small mistakes as that. even u can prove from the koron (i.e quote from it), where it says this, then fine, ill understand how u formed this idea.
ok here what i got for u m8

1st there is 2 things called quran and the sona

1st the quran doesn't explain everything exactly in other ways not the details e.g : the quran said to pray for allah but it didn't say how we see how muhammed (maybe blessin and peace be upon him)
and he tought us how and we did it the same way

2nd the quran didn't tell us the same story of the esraa and merag

well there is a thing about muhammed seein allah

and went to the 7 skies
and talked to all prophets and all angels

angel of death, gebrael , keeper of heavens , keeper of hell ,
and all angels

and he went to the shagra el nehaea (which means the tree of end)
and talked to god
50% percent of shieks say that he saw god of course
and the others say how can he see him

so nobody knows the truth

and the esraa and merag was told by the speeches of the prophet not in the quran
but in the quran allah said that muhammed never lied
and its true
cause he was the most trustworthy and truthfull person ever

i think now u understand a little better
ok
:P

sk8bloke22

January 1st, 2002, 14:00

ok so he spoke to all the prohpets.................moses wasnt a prophet.

these are just stories in a story book. theres no evidence other than replicas of the writings themselves that indicate any amount of truth. all these try to do is teach u morals, and wat is right and wrong. its a method of control. argue wat u like, but u can not deny that religion is a way to control a population. if thats for the good of for the bad.

personally, if someones freedom is restricted in such a way, i cannot see how this a good thing.

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 14:05

well if he wasn't a prophet
then why dont u say that muhammed isn't a prophet
or jesus isn't a prophet
or adam is not a prophet
etc.....
well he was a prophet
and if he wasn't how could he talk to allah
and speak to him
can u explain this
how could a person talk to allah
how

sk8bloke22

January 1st, 2002, 14:09

where the fuck does it say that moses was a prophet. there were other prophets in judasim, moses was nothing at all to do with it. he didnt prohpesise anything, he just led the exodus from egypt, thats it. i think king solamon was a prophet, or there were big prophets in judaism, but get ur stuff right. ask anyone who even knows the slightest about judaism, and they will say that moses aint a prophet.

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 14:13

take it easy
ok lets say he wasn't a prophet
then how he talked to god

how the heck an ordinary people talk to god

how the heck could any other than a prophet talk to god or listen to him

can u explain this

he ofcourse was a prophet
maybe he didn't get down the bible

but he was a prophet

there are some prophets that didn't came with any message
they just came to tell people to worship allah
like adams
noah
zaks
soliman
and many more
almost all of the prophets didn't came with a message except three or 4

sk8bloke22

January 1st, 2002, 14:20

he didnt talk to god, he didnt even know who god was. he was apparently told by god, whom he didnt even know existed.

the thing that pisses me off most abuot an religion or ideology, is that ppl wont except they're wrong, im not just talking about u rpglover, im talking about everyone, including me. for me my arguement is always gonna be right, and for u im always gonna be wrong.

but having seen m8s become religious, and completely get brainwashed, and become racist fucks becos of being so close minded, i cannot see how, in the long run religion is the life to take. its a false sense of security. yet, just as Marx's theory of history is 'inevitable' and the fact that god is a 'truth', its impossible to disprove something so abstract.

sk8bloke22

January 1st, 2002, 14:33

Originally posted by RPGlover12

who created the earth
who created us
who created islam
who created religion
who created the first basic cells
who created the first day on earth
who created the last day on earth

ok :P

Light travels at the incredible speed of 186,000 miles per second. As fast as this is, it is still not nearly fast enough to cover the known universe in a short time. Because of the enormous size of the universe, we measure the distance between stars, galaxies, and clusters of galaxies in light years. A light year is the distance that light travels, at 186,000 miles per second, in one year. That's about 5.8 trillion miles. Now, if we say that something is ten light years away, that means that it would take light ten years to go from earth to that distant point. How is any of this relevant to creationism and the age of the universe?

We can tell how far away certain objects are through many independent methods. We've known that some galaxies are as far away as a billion light years for quite some time now. As I said before, a billion light years means that it would take light a billion years to travel that distance. The problem is that we can see these distant objects -- we can detect their light. The light that we detect with our eyes and our computers travelled that huge distance of a billion light years to reach earth. Again, let me remind you that light travels at a fixed rate -- it never changes. Now, for that light to travel those billion light years, it would have to have been travelling for a billion years. The only problem is, according to the bible, the universe is only about 6,000 years old. If that were true, then the light from these distant galaxies would only have had enough time to travel 6,000 light years -- they would not have reached earth yet. But we know that the light from those galaxies has reached earth, and that that light has been travelling for a billion years. For that light to travel from those distant galaxies to earth, it would have to have been given a billion years worth of time. Unfortunately, according to the bible, that amount of time has not passed yet. If the bible were true, then the most distant objects we would be able to see would be about 6,000 light years away, because anything further than that would not have enough time to send its light to us.

This argument is proof that the universe is older than the bible says it is. All defenses against it use an a priori bias against an old earth, and are therefore worthless. The bible is wrong.

The ultimate origin of things, according to many creation legends, traces back into the mists of time to which no specific date can be affixed. The Australian aborigine, for example, speaks of a primeval dream-time. Some of the eastern religions, on the other hand, specify a creation date much older than 6000 years. Other cultures, I suspect, use or once used a more recent date. Thus, we have a spread of dates, to the extent that a date can be applied.

No people, of course, are going to have memories of the hundreds of thousands of years that Homo sapiens has been on this planet! A natural mistake for an ancient would have been the assumption that his tribe or city-state began its ascent shortly after the world began. Thus, most creation accounts, if they give a specific date, will likely favor a recent creation.

We have no proof for a young earth here!

this wasnt typed by me by the way, i pasted it from another site.

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 14:34

its written in the quran

and am going to tell u somethin

if ur religous about religion

u'll never think that right is wrong

and ur right everything i say u say that its wrong
but what is the truth
if u want to know somethin
why dont u read the unchanged book from allah
that hasn't been changed from 1400 years ago
and why do u leave the jewish nation and go to islam
it wont make any diff if u're still a jewish
but if ur a muslim it will
a muslim knows much better stuff than a jewish and christian in religion
like jewish and christian say
where is the bones of jesus
well in bible i dont know if it recorded anything on that ornot
but the true story from an unchanged book
that allah made the treator look like jesus and allah took jesus to the heavens
he is still alive
and from the judgement day signs that he will come back to life
thats why we do believe that jesus is a real prophet and allah is true
cause allah will never let his massenger die
not any massenger
will die unless naturally not being killed
like when muhammed was praying
a guy tried to kill him
when he was coming near him he saw a big hole of fire behind him
when he get closer he feel the hot of the fire
and when muhammed finished his prayers
he stand on the hole of fire
and didn't happen anything to him because it was a just imaginary fire from the guy who tried to kill him
and made the hot imaginary too
so how can u explain this

and also Ibrahim
when his people made the fire to burn him
he was putten in the fire
allah told the fire to be calm and warm on Ibrahim
and it did he came out one peace even the fire stelled for 3 days
do u see how allah did everything for his prophets

never let them get killed

and jesus will come down to earth again to kill the anti christ
and there is a signs for it i just dont know
and the signs of the judgement day
as i told u before
try to study islam
ok
:P

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 14:38

Originally posted by sk8bloke22

Light travels at the incredible speed of 186,000 miles per second. As fast as this is, it is still not nearly fast enough to cover the known universe in a short time. Because of the enormous size of the universe, we measure the distance between stars, galaxies, and clusters of galaxies in light years. A light year is the distance that light travels, at 186,000 miles per second, in one year. That's about 5.8 trillion miles. Now, if we say that something is ten light years away, that means that it would take light ten years to go from earth to that distant point. How is any of this relevant to creationism and the age of the universe?

We can tell how far away certain objects are through many independent methods. We've known that some galaxies are as far away as a billion light years for quite some time now. As I said before, a billion light years means that it would take light a billion years to travel that distance. The problem is that we can see these distant objects -- we can detect their light. The light that we detect with our eyes and our computers travelled that huge distance of a billion light years to reach earth. Again, let me remind you that light travels at a fixed rate -- it never changes. Now, for that light to travel those billion light years, it would have to have been travelling for a billion years. The only problem is, according to the bible, the universe is only about 6,000 years old. If that were true, then the light from these distant galaxies would only have had enough time to travel 6,000 light years -- they would not have reached earth yet. But we know that the light from those galaxies has reached earth, and that that light has been travelling for a billion years. For that light to travel from those distant galaxies to earth, it would have to have been given a billion years worth of time. Unfortunately, according to the bible, that amount of time has not passed yet. If the bible were true, then the most distant objects we would be able to see would be about 6,000 light years away, because anything further than that would not have enough time to send its light to us.

This argument is proof that the universe is older than the bible says it is. All defenses against it use an a priori bias against an old earth, and are therefore worthless. The bible is wrong.

The ultimate origin of things, according to many creation legends, traces back into the mists of time to which no specific date can be affixed. The Australian aborigine, for example, speaks of a primeval dream-time. Some of the eastern religions, on the other hand, specify a creation date much older than 6000 years. Other cultures, I suspect, use or once used a more recent date. Thus, we have a spread of dates, to the extent that a date can be applied.

No people, of course, are going to have memories of the hundreds of thousands of years that Homo sapiens has been on this planet! A natural mistake for an ancient would have been the assumption that his tribe or city-state began its ascent shortly after the world began. Thus, most creation accounts, if they give a specific date, will likely favor a recent creation.

We have no proof for a young earth here!

this wasnt typed by me by the way, i pasted it from another site.
well thats in the bible
in the quran it was never said anything about the earth was from 6,000 years
never said that
and the bible has been changed
so dont work out with the bible that much
go for the quran
and u'll see the explaiation of everything
trust me

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 14:43

Originally posted by RPGlover12
well if he wasn't a prophet
then why dont u say that muhammed isn't a prophet
or jesus isn't a prophet
or adam is not a prophet
etc.....
well he was a prophet
and if he wasn't how could he talk to allah
and speak to him
can u explain this
how could a person talk to allah
how

*bump* you have no proof these people ever "talked", so isntead of asking how maybe you should be asking... why does this seem so damn loop holed?

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 14:46

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
its impossible to disprove something so abstract.

exactly... nail on the head right there! rpglover, do you understand that? its impossible to proove something so far removed from every day life... the thing with faith is that you have to sacrifice a lot of the things you learn just to keep it... :plain:

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 14:59

Originally posted by RPGlover12
if u want to know somethin
why dont u read the unchanged book from allah
that hasn't been changed from 1400 years ago

first of all you dont KNOW it hasnt been changed, you've been told it hasnt changed...

second of all the point im trying to get across is that i dont trust what a book says over a theory i can digest and udnerstand. Stories are not the best way to convery theories, but an excellent way to send messages.

like when muhammed was praying
a guy tried to kill him
when he was coming near him he saw a big hole of fire behind him
when he get closer he feel the hot of the fire
and when muhammed finished his prayers
he stand on the hole of fire
and didn't happen anything to him because it was a just imaginary fire from the guy who tried to kill him
and made the hot imaginary too
so how can u explain this

how do you proove that ever happened?!?!?! ok heres my story from my unchanged book the year is 3400 and 1400 years ago sytaylor was say at his computer and there was a fire behind him, and he kept playing his games... because he had faith in the games, the games saved him!!

See my point? you can easily make stories like that up and say they havent changed, nowhere does it proove it is divine.

a muslim knows much better stuff than a jewish and christian in religion

in your opinion

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 15:08

nope in ur opinion
u dont have any religion
dont believe in god
dont believe in anything written
dont believe in anything
how the heck do u believe in ur self
how the heck do u think u can liveur life
how the heck do u think that ur going away in the judgement day

tell me
who created jins
who created human
who created demons
who created angels
who created animals
who created plants
who created religion
who created every little thing in this whole damn universe
and i've got proofs that its true
and the book is for over 1400 years
how did it know the signs of the judgement day

can u tell methis

ok here is the signs
its been written from over 1400 years
ok i'll go
The Minor Signs: (in no particular order)

The coming of the last Prophet, Mohammad (SAW). This has already happened ofcourse.
The slave will become the master.
The disappearance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance. The leaders of the Muslims will be chosedn from ignorant people, and they will rule according to their whims. (Bukhari & Muslim) Today, studying Islam is formally considered to be an inferior career in most of the Muslim world. The leaders of the Muslim world are more known for their political or military prowess rather than knowledge of Islam.
Adultery and fornication will be prevalent. (The Prophet, peace be upon him, said that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people, which their ancestors had not known.) (Bukhari & Muslim)
Adultery and fornication will be performed in the open.
The consumption of intoxicants will be widespread. (Bukhari & Muslim)
Women will outnumber men......eventually 50 women to 1 man. (Bukhari & Muslim)
Killing, killing, killing. (Bukhari & Muslim) Killing will increase.
The children will be filled with rage. (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
Rain will be acidic or burning. (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim) The increasing levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere will inevitably result in the increase of acid rain.
Children of fornication will become widespread or prevalent. (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
When a trust becomes a means of making a profit.
Gains will be shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor.
Paying zakat (alms) becomes a burden and miserliness becomes widespread.
When a man obeys his wife and disobeys his mother; and treats his friend kindly while shunning his father.
When voices are raised in the mosques.
People will walk in the marketplace with their thighs exposed.
Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time. Plains, trains and automobiles.
The people of Iraq will receive no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans. (Europeans) (Muslim)
People will hop between the clouds and the earth.
The leader of a people will be the worst of them.
People will treat a man with respect out of fear for some evil he might do.
Men will begin to wear silk.
Female singers and musical instruments will become popular.
People will dance late into the night.
When the last ones of the Ummah begin to curse the first ones.
People will believe in the stars.
People will reject al-Qadr. (the Divine Decree of Destiny)
Time will pass rapidly. (Bukhari)
Good deeds will decrease. (Bukhari)
Miserliness will be thrown into the hearts of people. (Bukhari)
Smog will appear over cities because of the evil that they are doing.
People will be carrying on with their trade, but there will only be a few trustworthy persons.
A man will pass by a grave and wish that he were in their place.
Earthquakes will increase.
The appearance of false messengers (30 dajjals).
Women will be naked in spite of being dressed.
The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims. This has happened and has been renamed Istanbul.
When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and begin to compete with others in the construction of taller buildings. (Bukhari) The modern ex-nomads of Saudi Arabia are an excellent example of this.
The truthful person will not be believed and the liar will be believed.
When men lie with men and women lie with women.
Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business.
A woman will enter the workforce out of love for this world.
Books will be widespread and knowledge will be low.
Arrogance will increase in the earth. (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
Family ties will be cut.
Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men.

how did it know all this will happen from 1400 years
its the minor sins
not the major sins
the major didn't came yet
ok
explain this sytaylor

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 15:36

how the heck do u believe in ur self
how the heck do u think u can liveur life
how the heck do u think that ur going away in the judgement day

i beleive in myself because i have detirmination to do something with my life, i want those who love me to feel proud, i wanna make the best of the time i have...

i live my life quite easily... im not dead!

on judgement day i hope to be judged on how i lived my life, on how i treat others... not on my ability to follow some stories and put faith in them... and if im persicuted for that i dont care... any god who would rather have me kiss ass than live my life to the full (with respect to others) is sureley not the divine all loving creator type so many make him/her out to be...

People will dance late into the night

SHOCK HORROR!! :alien: :blush:

ok im gonna predict something...
in the future people will live on mars... how do i know this? because its likley... when people dont have religion to forbid them they will live their lives as they choose... its called valuing diversity and being open minded, some the religions of the world preech but do not practice... its hippocritical

A man will pass by a grave and wish that he were in their place.

im sorry but get real... your saying no muslim ever wanted to kill himself? thats a lie and you know it

Female singers and musical instruments will become popular.

thats right lets oppress the females, even though theyre human, and have every single right a man does by the laws of this earth... you live you die

Earthquakes will increase.
really? wow and i suppose so will volcanic activity... vague statement...

ok you get the point everything you say is vague, and theres a hint of facism in there too... freedom is not a bad thing, it is not the "evil" some would make it out to be

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 15:48

first of all in the grave judgement
the two angels in ur right and left
will ask u
what is ur religion
u wont answer
and they wont continue askin u
and the grave will be very tight that ur rips will be broken
and a fire will be in ur grave from the earth to the sky just burnin u
and a snake called the shoga el akra "the brave bold" will hit u from day to night
night to day
and allah will judge u in ur religion first then what have u done in ur life
so its ur proplem and
to tell u
in the judgement day all trees and rocks will tell the muslims there is an unbeliever or jewish behind me come and kill him
and if u want to know the major signs tell me

and hope that ur become convinced
cause ur harder to convince than anybody i met in my whole life
i made a christian become a muslim
a jew
and a nonbeliever
but ur the hardest
but am still searchin for a good thing
i will make u believe however it cost me
no matter i pay
give
anything i just want u to believe
i wont let u go to hell because i didn't tell u to go to islam
and i didn't do all that ihave got
and its my fault not to learn islam very well
its all my fault
if i were a real religous i would make u believe
and i wont stop postin untill u believe
i wont

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 15:52

im sorry but get real... your saying no muslim ever wanted to kill himself? thats a lie and you know it
well u dont get it
no muslim want to kill him self
but they want to die in war
or allah make them die
cause they've made so much mistakes
they want to die cause they dont want to wait for the judgement day
but they dont kill them selves
and they want to get the shahada (die in a war, defending ur self family money , drowning,accedent) so that they go to the heaven without any judging
get it ;)

Harteex

January 1st, 2002, 15:53

Originally posted by RPGlover12
and i wont stop postin untill u believe
i wont

This thread is going to be loooooong ;)

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 15:54

Originally posted by Harteex

This thread is going to be loooooong ;)
yeah sure

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 15:57

dont you see? i dont want to be saved... the idea of islam is something I DONT WANT... not by ignorance... by choice... i would rather think what I want to think and IF i ever get judged (whcih i dont think i will), then id rather be judged on who i am... and if whoever/whatever doesnt do that fine, i lived a good life!! i dont live for the afterlife, i live for life!!!!

i have nothing to fear from not believeing... i can justify what i do, and as such you cant proove me wrong for now wanting to give my life to a religion

im happy being a non believer... i live a good life, i know happiness, i know love.. and yet i dont have religion... for me that is evidence that the true miricle on earth is not a creator but life itself

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 16:00

Originally posted by RPGlover12

well u dont get it
no muslim want to kill him self

how can you speak for1 billion people?

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 16:09

u just dont want the after life dont u
i wont like the idea of u

there is no need for life
i dont want to live my life except to the after life
i pray and worship god for the after life
nothin else
and u dont believe in anything
and as i told u before i wont surrender unless i make u believe with a good proof
i've got a proof already hope that u like it
its a true story that happened in this age
here it is
"about a lady was workin as a nurse

(there is somethin called dajjal it means to know what happenes its not true but some guys believe in it)
she was a nurse and a dajjal
she put the amal(a think to make the dajjal work)
in the mouth of the died to make the amal work
and allah made any one who believes and a muslim spit it if its putten in his mouse
and she put it in a muslim mouth and sewed his mouth so that he wont spit it
and she went to the kabba 3 times
every time she doesn't see the kaba and the muhammed grave
she called a shiek and he told her
"allah is angry at u and u're not a muslim any more"
and when she died
20 people where carrying her grave to burry her
they heard this in a very very very loud voice "throw the coffin and run"
the voice was very loud that they didn't here their voice
and they didn't run and didn't throw it
they continued and they heard it again
this time all of the guys left except her son
and he heard "throw the coffin and run and dont look back "
he didn't the first time
the 2nd time
he heard it he did it
and when he looked back
he saw a fire from earth to the sky burning the coffin and half of his face was burned "

can u believe that allah's rage could do this to someone for doing this only

wow
this well happen to u in the grave judgement

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 16:11

Originally posted by sytaylor

how can you speak for1 billion people?
cause if u speak to any muslim
do u want to die in shahada
he will tell u yes
if u asked him do u want to kill ur self
he will say no
ask any muslim and u'll see

Braveheart

January 1st, 2002, 16:39

Trying to keep my head completely out of the water in this one, all I would like to point out is that by definition, science isn't a correct "axium" (sic).

Scientists have been wrong before, and they will be wrong again, I won't even bother going in to examples. The theories used to prove your much-hailed scientific "fact" are just that - THEORIES. Purely theoretical, speculative, hypothetical.

Now by definition, mathematics is correct, so if you can prove to me BY PURE MATHEMATICS that God simply cannot exist, then I'll take your arguments a bit more seriously. But I don't think you're going to do that now, are you?

That is all... and by the way, it's spelt "axiom" ;).

Stuart Macdonald
-- Emulation64.com Server Admin

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 16:55

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 16:57

Originally posted by Braveheart
Trying to keep my head completely out of the water in this one, all I would like to point out is that by definition, science isn't a correct "axium" (sic).

Scientists have been wrong before, and they will be wrong again, I won't even bother going in to examples. The theories used to prove your much-hailed scientific "fact" are just that - THEORIES. Purely theoretical, speculative, hypothetical.

Now by definition, mathematics is correct, so if you can prove to me BY PURE MATHEMATICS that God simply cannot exist, then I'll take your arguments a bit more seriously. But I don't think you're going to do that now, are you?

That is all... and by the way, it's spelt "axiom" ;).

Stuart Macdonald
-- Emulation64.com Server Admin

this is true, but i prefer theories to stories, theories can be prooved or disprooved at some point... with a story you just modify your argument and use the story to back it up :-/

Slougi

January 1st, 2002, 18:03

Originally posted by RPGlover12

cause if u speak to any muslim
do u want to die in shahada
he will tell u yes
if u asked him do u want to kill ur self
he will say no
ask any muslim and u'll see
RPGlover stop telling lies. There is a good many muslims that are very poor and miserable and surely many of those have thought about that or hoped to pass away from this life. Grow up. Well tou are only 13 I am not blaming you for the stuff you say or believe in; that is for everyone to choose on his own. But do please view the world a bit more critically and realistically.

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 19:08

dont get me wrong
like a normal die
he will say yes
and a shahada also yes
but a sucide
nope that what i meant
get it

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 19:23

Originally posted by Slougi

RPGlover stop telling lies. There is a good many muslims that are very poor and miserable and surely many of those have thought about that or hoped to pass away from this life. Grow up. Well tou are only 13 I am not blaming you for the stuff you say or believe in; that is for everyone to choose on his own. But do please view the world a bit more critically and realistically.
well am not blaming my self and i do believe what i say and i do say it fully minded
and i know what i believe in
and what am sayin
and am sure 100 percent that what i say
is what i believe in
100 percent
as sytaylor said that he wont believe in religion and god
i wont believe in any other religion
cause i've been given the chance
and i choose this religion
and i know that its true
i know what am saying
ok
so dont make stuff
i know what am writtin
and if i have to give my life for islam and allah
my money my family anything that allah would accept it
if i had a chance to fight with palastene i will
or fight with afganstan
i will do it to die as a shahed (as shahada)
i will do anything for that
but i also want to live to see jesus and antichrist coming to this earth
i want to see the judgement day come to this earth
wanna see what will happen
gog and magog
wow i want to see it
but i dont want to get judged
:(
am sayin this as my opinoin
i really want to die in war

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 19:35

so what would happen if you died in a car crash tomorrow?

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 19:40

well i will be in heaven ofcourse
i will also take the shahada
and i will be happy
and i wont take any judgement in the judgment day
that what i want forever
i just want to see what will happen at the end of the days
and the last hour
jesus and anti christ
muhammed ebn abdullah
in other way
the major signs
wow that would be reall good

sytaylor

January 1st, 2002, 20:55

but the thing is, if you just died you wouldnt know any different... so as you see what im arguing is not pretty and lot of people dont want to believe it... it just makes more sense to me

RPGlover12

January 1st, 2002, 21:04

well i wont get judged at the judgement day
i wont get the torture of the grave
i will go to the seventh heaven without any help
i will always be in heaven
i will do whatever i want
i will be like an angel
my face from light
body from light
sit on light
walk on light
sleep on light
that's in the seventh heaven
if it's lowered
it wll be less
not many
but u will see allah anyway
and thats the best thing
i just want to see allah
see the prophets
see the angels
see everything i didn't see
everything i dont know
get it
;)

adi

January 1st, 2002, 23:11

I believe in God because of this reason : every piece of matter you see before you was created from something else. Quite frankly, I think the idea of one omnipotent presence who created the universe is far more believable than the big bang theory and evolution etc. IT IS possible for religion to coexist with evolution, you just have to be open-minded to the possibility that maybe God intended it to be that way. I chose Christianity for personal reasons but I can't say everything in the Bible is correct. It was written by many different humans talking about identical events so theres bound to be miscrepancies in it. I chose my faith because it just feels right and I've just seen no concrete evidence to disprove it.

However there's nothing more that annoys me than a religious zealot who rams their faith down everyone elses throat. I'm an open minded person who chose to believe in God. I don't care what religion anyone is as long as you tolerate and try to live in peace with each other. However as this topic has shown, some people are considerably unable to do that...........

sytaylor

January 2nd, 2002, 02:08

Originally posted by theacj
I believe in God because of this reason : every piece of matter you see before you was created from something else. Quite frankly, I think the idea of one omnipotent presence who created the universe is far more believable than the big bang theory and evolution etc. IT IS possible for religion to coexist with evolution, you just have to be open-minded to the possibility that maybe God intended it to be that way. I chose Christianity for personal reasons but I can't say everything in the Bible is correct. It was written by many different humans talking about identical events so theres bound to be miscrepancies in it. I chose my faith because it just feels right and I've just seen no concrete evidence to disprove it.

Of couse a creator is easier to believe, why do you think most religions make that natural assumption? because every 10th generation someone is born with a tatoo of instructions? heck no. The "big bang" theory only explains our solar system, not the whole universe... its not an argument aginest creation, its an argument for evolution. I fundamentally disagree that what the bible says is "gospel truth", what i do think is that there are a good set of morals in there for those willing to read between the lines.

Faith feels right in my opinion because its far nicer to believe... my standpoint? i dont know what or what is not out there, but i certainly dont think the bible tells me... im not saying there is or isnt a creator, im saying i dont know, and neither do religions... they have faith in... but do not know

Reznor007

January 2nd, 2002, 02:53

Originally posted by RPGlover12

i wont believe in any other religion
cause i've been given the chance
and i choose this religion
and i know that its true

Well I know it's false :)

sk8bloke22

January 2nd, 2002, 04:24

yeh Braveheart ur right. but in that same sense, if i proposed that pigs can actually fly when we are not looking, i bet it would be difficult to find a mathamatical equation to disprove that. as i said, something so abstract is difficult to officially disprove, of course u can look at a pig, look at the physics of it, and pretty much logically guess that pigs hav no understandleable method of flying. the theory of god is much harder than that even, as u can look at a pig, u cant look at god. u can do wat abraham did, an look at all the visible elements of the earth (sun, moon, etc) and conclude that something must hav created them. or u can look at a more aethiest view, where considering the earth to be a young planet in comparison to wat ppl know about other parts of the universe, and considering that hummans are a young and new race in comparison to other species on the earth...u can conclude that the ideas of science are still too premature to understand the origins of our creation. that doesnt mean that there is necessarily a god (its so abstract to disprove remember), but it does mean theres a some missing evidence, or something undiscovered that will enter our understanding of the world. its the evolution of science really. take the telescope, before that ppl's understanding of the world were based on early scientific observations...the sun revolves around the earth. it took one simple device to disprove that instantly. and yes, science is always making mistakes, thats becos its falsifiable, its cant be concrete, hence theres always room for improvement. take the telescope thing again. first thoughts after the discovery of the telescope were that the earth revolves around the sun. following that, this idea changed, or more like evolved, with the avancement of telescope technology, indicating that infact the sun and our entire galaxy, could be one out of lots of different galaxies. these are remarkable discoveries, but wats more they are still open to being disproved. the more human technological advances grow, the more we discover. which is wat will leave this debate open until that discovery was made.

RPGlover12

January 2nd, 2002, 10:13

guys i wanna ask u a question
why didn't u read the quran
didn't study the islam
and quran
was written by only one person (dont remember his name)
and they made copies after that
the same copies didn't change anything in it
not even a letter
thats why we say that islam is the religion of allah

ok here is somethin sytaylor
when i asked u who created earth , human , jinns , skies ,trees,plants and everything in this whole damn planet
lets take it one by one u told me u dont know right ok lets go
1st : earth : who created it who made the mountains rivers etc....
2nd :human: who created them they were only a small sperm ??
3rd :jinns: well its a hard thing how somethin like 4 feet long we can't see them who made them invicible to us ?????
4th :skies: who created 7 skies and we even couldn't see except one and without even walls so it wont fall
5th :trees: who made a small seed become the largest thing ever
who made the seed a tree and long beautifull tree
6th : religions: who made this religion ??
lets talk about religion in the first place

i'll talk about islam

Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also brought an Arabic Quran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Quran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the quran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Quran.
Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty, and splendor of this Glorious Quran

who made this

explain it

sytaylor
or any other unbeliever

ofcourse there is a huge power up there that made that
who created :devil:
of course there is a huge power up there that made him
and that power is allah
the creator of this universe
the creator of everything
the creator of human plants cells solar system
he is the only god with no partner nor son nor wife nor anybody else except himself

and he sent messages to this earth
to make people believe in him
and worship him
and he said that the last message will be sent to this earth will be islam
thats why he loved muhammed very much
thats why he made him go to the 7th skies
and to the shagrat el nehaea (the tree of end)
muhammed nearly saw him
(most of the experts say that he saw him other say not)
my self i say he didn't see him

thats why i believed in this message when i first studied it
get it

sk8bloke22

January 2nd, 2002, 14:23

"This disproves the most widely accepted version of God. God is supposively omniscent (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful), omnibenevolent (all-good), and omnipresent (existing everywhere at the same time).

Omnipotence
First off let's define desire. A desire is a wish or craving for something you don't yet possess, filling a sense of emptiness. Can god desire something without being in conflict with his omnipotence? I certainly believe not. What about god creating the world because he was lonely? For this I will summon up a hypothetical situation: if you are the only person existing, what are you contrasting loneliness to? Loneliness can not be contrasted with anything if only god existed.

Omniscence and Omnipotence
Can God tell what you will do in two days? If yes, then is it possible to do some action contrary to what God wishes within the two days? If you can bend God's will, then you are more powerful than God, and hence, God is not omnipotent. If God can't tell what you will do in two days, then God doesn't know everything, and hence, is not omniscent.

Free Will and Moral Evils
Omniscence and free will, clearly can not be reconciled, as stated above. If you have to do exactly what God wishes to be done, then you don't have freedom of choice, do you? Moral evils can no longer be blamed upon free will if free will itself doesn't exist.

Omniscence and Testing
Some people claim God is using us as test subjects. My question is, if God knows everything (omniscence), then why is he testing? He already is aware of the results. If he isn't aware of the results, then he isn't omniscent, and if he is aware of the results, then why is he testing people?"

Taken from some forum...

Wasn't that a fun exercise?

adi

January 2nd, 2002, 14:26

I fundamentally disagree that what the bible says is gospel truth :sytaylor

I agree. I don't know if what I'm about to say accounts as hearsay to some zealots, but I'm a Christian and I can also say the bible is wrong in some instances, maybe because of human error or maybe because of the style of writing used at that time (the book is full of metaphors which some people misenterpret quite frequently).

What I can say however is that Jesus did exist, the prophecies about him are real and scientifically dated and there is evidence that he did walk on this earth. The whole issue of a God existing is one that will simply go on and on, but what I'm trying to point out is that not all people who believe in a religion are idiots that deserve to be looked down on. We all don't blindly follow, its just that the very element of faith is something an outsider to religion finds hard to comprehend and I can accept that.

And RPGlover12, you may make some fair points but quite frankly the nature of your posting and the way you write in
several
word
fragments
means that most of what you say goes unread. I know English may not be your first language, but please try to make your posts more concise and to the point, and not take up so much screen area.

sk8bloke22

January 2nd, 2002, 14:48

yeh fair enuff. i havent got anything wrong with wateva ppl believe in. im just arguing the existance of god, im not challenging the person themselves. im not even doubting jesus did exist, although u cant instantly prove those miracles. oh one thing though, theajc, back me up here, wasnt jesus supposed to be jewish? u would know best, as u r a christian. anyway, everyone does argue differently, some black extremists, argued that jesus was black - to be honest it makes the man sound as mythical as a ghost...

oh yea
rpgglover, please
stop writing in fragments
still
not as annoying
as when ppl write only in
colour
.
kills the eyes
if u know wat i mean.

;)

RPGlover12

January 2nd, 2002, 16:10

ok
i
will
do
it
;)
hey there is somethin that u should know , allah knows everything that we are doing
there are 5 stuff that are already setup even before u were born
and these 5 stuff are
marriage,death,born,religion,worship
those are the five
u can't change them whatever u do u can't , and the other are ur free choice like do u do bad or good things and god knows what u're going to do but he still gave u a chance in livin so try to make it a good life by religion , worshippin .
get what i mean ;)

adi

January 2nd, 2002, 16:18

Hey Rob, Jesus was simply the son of God, so he transcends all religious boundaries eg jew or gentile. However if you insist, he was born into a Jewish family so on an earthly level he was a Jew. And for the colour thing he probably just looked like the people around him, so he probably wasnt black.

sytaylor

January 2nd, 2002, 16:24

rpg... you frustrate me because you blindly accept these teacheings of "this happened and that happened" and thats final... because its what you believe does not make it right! same for anything i say, capish?

RPGlover12

January 2nd, 2002, 16:25

did he die a jewish
or not
and he is not the son of allah
if he took a son or a wife
the earth will be destroyed
and its true
he even said that in the quran
ok

RPGlover12

January 2nd, 2002, 16:34

Originally posted by sytaylor
rpg... you frustrate me because you blindly accept these teacheings of "this happened and that happened" and thats final... because its what you believe does not make it right! same for anything i say, capish?
i was given a chance to believe in anyreligion or dont believe in any religion and i choose to believe and it did work and i did believe in allah and religion and i got convinced after i read it i really liked it and i believed in allah and muhammed
i believed it as a kid goes after a piece of choclate
i really get convinced and i wasn't tought "this happened and that happened"
i dont believe any shit unless i get convinced with it
but i believed islam from the first time i read it
i felt warm when i read it
and i liked it and i got convinced it form the first time
get it

DuDe

January 2nd, 2002, 20:16

Originally posted by RPGlover12

i found out that the bible has been changed

and so does the torah

The Torah wasn`t changed, don`t know where you got that idea from. The collection of books that constructs the Torah is practically the same since the final edit of it (by edit, I mean the books that were decided to be put in the Toprah), and it happened A long time ago, even before the Islam actually existed.

Now, someone here said something about the world being 6000 years old. Well, the Torah doesn`t say that. It is an interpretation made by some priest, a few hundred years ago.

RPGlover12

January 2nd, 2002, 20:40

well i've researched about the torah
i've found it wasn't much changed as the bible
the torah is a little close to the islam
thats why when muhammed first introduced the islam all of the jews accepted it
they were the most close to islam but they also changed alittle in the torah
and to tell u somethin
Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews or Christians were able to belie him regarding anything that he said
so that why it was the islam who is unchanged
and oleg wanna ask u a question
ofcuorse ur a jew
and did torah sent down to moses or messiah
and if u know arabic
could u please tell me what the name of messiah in arabic
i know that u learn arabic in ur school
so could u please tell me
ok

RPGlover12

January 2nd, 2002, 20:46

hey guys i've got the bible (gospel) and am going to read it and see the diff between it and islam and am going to get the torah after that and re-read my quran cause i haven't read quran in a very long

and i want to ask u christian guys how do u believe in this bible when i read it i found out its a whole diff between it and quran it was totally changed when i first read it i found out it was handwritten
i can't remember what had i read from the old days
but i read it now so i could remember it and i found out it was a reall changed and i got another one and i also found it was a huge diff and am also amazed how do u guys believe in christianity i found out now how the quran hasn't been changed and i was realllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll impressed with the quran when i read it
and am going to read the torah next just finish the bible and the quran ;)

Articuno_Master

January 2nd, 2002, 20:57

I am catholic and i only believe in one god that is God himself
And the lord Jesus, who suffered and died for us i truley believe
he exists upon witnessing unbelievable miricles.
People have different belief's and that is fine everyone is different if you want to believe in god so be it.
If you dont then dont. Its as simple as that.

RPGlover12

January 2nd, 2002, 21:14

jesus didn't die
he is in heaven
and will come to kill the anti christ
it will happen soon
cause all the minor signs of the judgement day are almost complete
and the major signs will come soon cause they will come after the minor signs
so jesus will come back to earth to kill the antichrist and he will become muslim
and will break the cross
and die after that so he is not died he is still alive in the heaven waiting for the day that comes to kill the antichrist and make the christians believe
get it ;)

sk8bloke22

January 2nd, 2002, 23:31

yeh torah is long too, i aint reading all that bullshit. its fairy stories if u ask me. i prefer the islam idea that jesus was more of a prohpet, and ur right, in islam moses = prohpet. my apologies. anyway, nuff said, im still even more in belief that there is no god. i aint an expert aethiest or nuting, but ill try and dig some more shit. i thought the quote from that forum on p12 (this is the longest thread, plz dont close it) was quite good. also, i doubt if martin has even bothered reading this far, but if u hav, how come if theres more than 4 pages it doesnt show on the index, and u hav to click on 'last page' instead. its a bit annoying if u wanna directly go to say page 7 out of 10 pages, u hav to go to the last page, then click on page 7.

Slougi

January 3rd, 2002, 00:14

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
yeh torah is long too, i aint reading all that bullshit. its fairy stories if u ask me. i prefer the islam idea that jesus was more of a prohpet, and ur right, in islam moses = prohpet. my apologies. anyway, nuff said, im still even more in belief that there is no god. i aint an expert aethiest or nuting, but ill try and dig some more shit. i thought the quote from that forum on p12 (this is the longest thread, plz dont close it) was quite good. also, i doubt if martin has even bothered reading this far, but if u hav, how come if theres more than 4 pages it doesnt show on the index, and u hav to click on 'last page' instead. its a bit annoying if u wanna directly go to say page 7 out of 10 pages, u hav to go to the last page, then click on page 7.
Rob look at the url of the thread:
http://www.emutalk.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=995&perpage=15&pagenumber=13
See the pagenumber thing? Edit that to say 7, i.e.:
http://www.emutalk.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=995&perpage=15&pagenumber=7
and there you go ;)

sk8bloke22

January 3rd, 2002, 00:25

hehe.

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 00:42

Originally posted by RPGlover12
jesus didn't die
he is in heaven
and will come to kill the anti christ
it will happen soon
cause all the minor signs of the judgement day are almost complete
and the major signs will come soon cause they will come after the minor signs
so jesus will come back to earth to kill the antichrist and he will become muslim
and will break the cross
and die after that so he is not died he is still alive in the heaven waiting for the day that comes to kill the antichrist and make the christians believe
get it ;)

Just where did you read that? Please tell me so I can prove that whereever you read that, it is false.

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 10:21

well its written in the quran m8
try to read it and u'll see and thnx sk8bloke for readin the quran and try to read all of it and u'll get impressed by it , its a reall good religion and try to be in it ok ;)

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 16:18

Originally posted by RPGlover12
well its written in the quran m8
try to read it and u'll see and thnx sk8bloke for readin the quran and try to read all of it and u'll get impressed by it , its a reall good religion and try to be in it ok ;)

Well, since the cross was not used by early christians, I find that VERY hard to believe.

Read this for more info http://www.nobeliefs.com/facts.htm#anchor237925

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 16:24

see
didn't i tell u this
and jesus didn't die
and the one who died was the treator who told the guys who wanted to kill jesus and allah made that treator look like jesus for them and thats why he didn't die
get it

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 17:39

ok here is it what u want christian guys
jesus is not a god nor the son of god and here is the proof
God is not Jesus, and Jesus is not God.2 Even Jesus himself rejected this. God has said in the Quran:

Indeed, they have disbelieved who have said, “God is the Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary.” The Messiah said, “Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever associates partners in worship with God, then God has forbidden Paradise for him, and his home is the Fire (Hell). For the wrongdoers,3 there will be no helpers.” (Quran, 5:72)

God is not a trinity. God has said in the Quran:

Indeed, they disbelieve who say, “God is the third of three (in a trinity),” when there is no god but one God. If they desist not from what they say, truly, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them. Would they not rather repent to God and ask His forgiveness? For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a messenger... (Quran, 5:73-75)

get it guys

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 18:00

OK, you are still using a fairy tale as proof, which doesn't work. If I write a book, it doesn't make it true. Please try to understand it.

adi

January 3rd, 2002, 18:06

RPglover, what religion are you????? You seem to have created your own over this post which comprises the most popular elements of every religion ever created. If so, I say good luck to you, the church of RPglover12 has a nice ring to it :D

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 18:06

u want a proof huh about that the quran is true dont u , ok when allah challanged the arabs to make one chapter as the quran nobody could and still now nobody could do a single chapter as the quran and how the quran told us about the destruction of the wtc
its said in the quran in the 21st century the tallest buildings will be destructed and how can u explain all the judgement day signs that are happening now he said that women will look like men and men look like women and killin will increase etc...... all that were written in an unchanged book from 1400 years ago and still not changed
explain it renzor

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 18:07

am muslim theacj

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 18:42

Originally posted by RPGlover12
u want a proof huh about that the quran is true dont u , ok when allah challanged the arabs to make one chapter as the quran nobody could and still now nobody could do a single chapter as the quran and how the quran told us about the destruction of the wtc
its said in the quran in the 21st century the tallest buildings will be destructed and how can u explain all the judgement day signs that are happening now he said that women will look like men and men look like women and killin will increase etc...... all that were written in an unchanged book from 1400 years ago and still not changed
explain it renzor

EXACTLY where does it say that? And even if it does...that proves it's false :) The WTC was not the tallest building.

And when I say that humans will one day live on the moon or mars, does that make me a holy prophit as well?

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 18:48

am askin u a question and it didn't say the tallest buildin in the world it said a two tall buildin owned by a very strong country will be destoryed and crumbled and that what it said and am askin u how did the quran know that all that would happen except a great force a very great force and the one who created us and created this whole planet and knows what will happen understand what do i mean
;)

Josep

January 3rd, 2002, 19:05

in all good faith, Rpglover12 i've been watching this thread at a distance waiting to see where this will go and DUDE, really, how many forms of muslim are there? I mean seriously, are you seriously speaking YOUR truth, or just something made? I really can't tell from the last few threads, maybe thats just me and your following your religion fine, some points you have made just seem to be a bit contradictory or blatantly odd...

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 19:10

Originally posted by RPGlover12
am askin u a question and it didn't say the tallest buildin in the world it said a two tall buildin owned by a very strong country will be destoryed and crumbled and that what it said and am askin u how did the quran know that all that would happen except a great force a very great force and the one who created us and created this whole planet and knows what will happen understand what do i mean
;)

I'm asking where does it say that?.

And you obviously aren't reading something right(if you are reading it at all).

the tallest buildings has now changed to it didn't say the tallest buildin in the world it said a two tall buildin owned by a very strong country :)

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 19:11

i didn't say anything made
and there is only one forum of muslim and am not that religous but i know many good stuff and i really love my religion and what do u think isn't true

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 19:14

Originally posted by Reznor007
:)
dont ask me the whole details i didn't read the whole quran and it did say that
i dont know where but i think in the tobah
sorah 11 or 9 i dont remember excatly and dont know which chapter but try to search for it and i apologize that i dont make my english clear cause english isn't my first langauge

Josep

January 3rd, 2002, 19:15

oh, um, talking to me Rpglover12? hehe, can't telll, well just in case if you were, of course im not at liberty to tell you whats true of your religion and whats not, hence "YOUR" religion, and DUDe, Reznor007, im pretty sure Rpglover12 is using a translator for most of what he writes, am i correct? Not all translators pick the correct descriptive words i would think after using one for many different languages, maybe, hehe, i dunno:)

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 19:17

I always here these things. The bible predicts princess diana's death, the jfk assassination, and so on, yet no one is ever able to point out where. That is another reason I have a hard time buying it.

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 19:18

well am not using translator
there is no for arabic english
and my computer doesn't read arabic
so thats why its alittle hard to and josep do u believe in god or not josep
and whats ur religion

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 19:46

ok here u guys a proof
simply, tell them about their body, i study medicine and u can hardly believe the humungous wonders that were put into it, listen this, if people think that the human being was made over the corse of evolution, then the probability of him being able to listen is 1/500000000, to see is 1/25000000000, to feel, 1/540000000, and to think is simply ZERO, the way that our bodies are geneticly made is of

the DNA and RNA, scientists think it is a reason to believe in evolution since bacteria has the same DNA principle, but they never found a link, to us it is the universal language of god in his creation, a proof that all creation is from one god

Josep

January 3rd, 2002, 19:51

uh, i dunno if those ratios are right, but HEY!! hehe, interesting though, im' lutheran, haven't read all the way through our bible yet, (i'm not saying there is a separate bible for lutherans, im just setting the difference between our book and rpglover12's) but i dunno, i'm not a firm believer yet, I think i have much to learn still about pleanty of things...

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 19:55

Originally posted by RPGlover12
ok here u guys a proof
simply, tell them about their body, i study medicine and u can hardly believe the humungous wonders that were put into it, listen this, if people think that the human being was made over the corse of evolution, then the probability of him being able to listen is 1/500000000, to see is 1/25000000000, to feel, 1/540000000, and to think is simply ZERO, the way that our bodies are geneticly made is of

the DNA and RNA, scientists think it is a reason to believe in evolution since bacteria has the same DNA principle, but they never found a link, to us it is the universal language of god in his creation, a proof that all creation is from one god

Ok, now where did you get this from? You haven't back anything up so far, so I'm not expecting anything though.

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 19:57

well i didn't write that i quoted it from a friend

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 20:02

Originally posted by RPGlover12
well i didn't write that i quoted it from a friend

So where did he get it from?

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 20:06

a friend of mine

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 20:18

No, I meant where did your friend get it from?

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 20:24

he works at the medicine stuff
and i dont know where did he get it from excatlly

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 20:28

i found out guys what do u think
if u lose faith in ur religion that makes u lose faith in god
or in anyother religion and thats why u dont want to believe in islam
and u made such technoligy and understood many stuff that they didn't knwo in the past that why u think that there is no need for god and there is no god and u think u overdriven god's power
am i right

Josep

January 3rd, 2002, 20:33

Do you realize how SHITTTTYYY this world is?! Jeeez if anyone thinks, well there are probably people that think this, but if anyone believes that we have soo much techonology (however you spell it) that good is obsolete then where the F*** do they live?! i mean, seriously, there is no where on the face of this planet or universe for that matter that is 100% and has no problems, and if people say they are perfect, then they are lieing to themselves. Technology has NOT overridden the use of god or the beliefs of god, and rpglover12, watch your phrasing, "and thats why u dont want to believe in islam" consider many religions alike and different:)

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 20:38

nope josep i really found that out
when christians or jewish lose their faith in bible or god or torah
they say "all this religion stuff are fake they are all alike and there aren't anything diff between them and i wont believe in islam i wont take another chance of fakin"
that what i think

hellknight

January 3rd, 2002, 20:40

WWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!1

Look at the replie count wwwwhhhhhoooooaaaa!!!!!!!

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 20:43

u saw that now hellfire

Slougi

January 3rd, 2002, 20:46

Originally posted by RPGlover12
i didn't say anything made
and there is only one forum of muslim and am not that religous but i know many good stuff and i really love my religion and what do u think isn't true
Umm untrue, like in christianity there are many different muslim ..umm i dunno what u call em :blush:
Like in christianity there are catholics etc. :p

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 20:46

Originally posted by RPGlover12
nope josep i really found that out
when christians or jewish lose their faith in bible or god or torah
they say "all this religion stuff are fake they are all alike and there aren't anything diff between them and i wont believe in islam i wont take another chance of fakin"
that what i think

It's not just christians and jews that lose faith, every religion has people that lose faith. I have a friend that is muslim, and any time we talk about religious things he always tries to get me to believe, but he can never manage to. Why? I'ts all too fake sounding.

If you think logically, does it make sense to just say "well, since we don't know exactly how we came about, let's just say some being created us, and he knows all" and so forth. No, that does not make sense, that's why I don't buy it.

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 20:53

u dont buy it cause ure afraid of it
dont you
let me ask u a question
have u ever tried to think who created us who created this universe who created the moon and who created the sun talking about the sun lets seeeeee
sun : how the heck could anybody creates something like that impossible no way except a great force like allah could create it and noway could any thing could create something like that noway no other way
tell me who created this sun
huh this melting thing we get burned form it even we are from about 600000000000000000 miles away from it
explain this

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 20:55

Originally posted by Slougi

Umm untrue, like in christianity there are many different muslim ..umm i dunno what u call em :blush:
Like in christianity there are catholics etc. :p
there aren't
and do u mean shiek and these stuff
if u mean this then sheik, imam ,mokem,
and slougi u're not accepted as a muslim if u dont believe in god how couldn't u believe in him when ure a muslim
?????????????

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 21:00

No one needs to create a star. It's just burning gas. It will eventually burn out and possibly become a red giant(thus cooking the earth) or become a black hole...which would in turn kill the earth because of a lack of sunlight and heat(and plus the gravity of the black hole might just crush the planet as well).

And no I'm not afraid of it. I was christian until I was around 13 or 14. I am now agnostic(there might be a god/whatever, or might not), though I tend to think more like an atheist.

Things don't necessarily have to be created by someone. How could a star just appear? Easy, big balls of gas that are in space have asteroids flything through them, 2 rocks hit, make a spark, and the gases burn. Wow, a star. Big deal.

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 21:04

who created everything
who created cells
who created human
who created jinns
who created plants
who created angels
who created demons
who created skies without walls to prevent it from falling
who created virus
who created bacteria
who created religion
who created moon
who created sun
who created everything in general
can u tell me renzor007

Josep

January 3rd, 2002, 21:09

Originally posted by RPGlover12
about 600000000000000000

that far away eh?! hehe j/k, DUDE reznor007!! Rpglover12 has a very good point and you are missing his point by impressing by your knowledge of the stars, rpglover12 is literally asking "ok, a star is made by two rocks smashing into eachother, ok, where do the rocks come form?" hypothetically speaking, i don't know how a star is made, nor do i care. But think of it this way, think of you dying from exisitance and not thinking every again, no thought, no nothing, no you, EVER, come on now, a little odd and wierd...don't know where i was going with that, but you guys get the pic right?

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 21:28

I was just giving a possible explanation. But anyway, no I can't tell you how everything came about. But does that mean I should just believe some wild story about this being that just existed, who decided he wanted some company?

And RGP isn't thinking very well. Things weren't created as they are right now. Things adapt to their environment, that's how everything gets along so well.

And about the sky...I found that hilarious. Why doesn't the sky fall :) Because it's lighter than air that's why..not because of some magic keeping it up :)

Who created religion? Man.

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 21:31

nope
islam wasn't created by man
can u give me one proof that islam is made by man

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 21:35

Well, considering the fact that the earth is billions of years, old, and animals existed millions of years before man did....and religion did not exist then. I would have to say man created religion.

And PS, give me proof of god/allah. Does anyone else see the humor in that? A person blindly believing in something, yet asking for proof when anyone questions that belief :)

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 21:38

ok
how couldn't the arabs couldn't do a single chapter when allah challenged them

Josep

January 3rd, 2002, 21:41

who created thought? ok, evolution you say? i dunno maybe, but hypothetically again, ok where did evolution start? that one pool of crap? i don't remember what scientists called it, ok, where did that pool start? you can just keep going with it dude:)

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 21:46

Originally posted by RPGlover12
ok
how couldn't the arabs couldn't do a single chapter when allah challenged them

I'm not really sure what you are asking. But, you can't take the quaran, bibla, torah, or any other religious books as proof. They are not proof. They are stories.

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 21:47

Originally posted by Josep
who created thought? ok, evolution you say? i dunno maybe, but hypothetically again, ok where did evolution start? that one pool of crap? i don't remember what scientists called it, ok, where did that pool start? you can just keep going with it dude:)

Yes, that question always comes up. But you can always use it on believers too. Who created god?

sk8bloke22

January 3rd, 2002, 21:49

who created demons. u mean who made them up. demons dont exist m8..

ur questions are pretty lame. it doesnt mean it was Allah who created them.

i can easily answer who created religion.

"religion is the opium of the people" Marx

basically Marx had some interesting theories. its pretty deep shit, and i dont necessary believe in it, but it is a possible answer, and just as ridiculous as the thoery of god, in a way.

there was a philosopher called Hegal. Hegal believed in something called the 'dialectic'. he said everything in life is centered aorund material ideas. For example, to control a population a group of leaders, used religion. But then something would change in the thesis, an anti-thesis, i.e: great thinkers, or wateva, find a new discovery, and then would come a new age of ideas, hence a movement in history. its is in the great discussion of interlectual ideas, or dialectic (which means literally discussion of ideas, hehe) that history progresses. from idea we get ways of solving material problems like poverty. thats basically Hegal's idealism put simply. very simply.

now there was Karl Marx who was a Young Hegalian. in 19th Century Britain, he saw the change from the old peasantry system to Capatilsm. he witnessed the French Revolution, as he realised that maybe it wasnt ideas that drives life. in the previous economic system, peasants would own their means of production, i.e there would be a tailor, who would make his/her own clothes to sell. and business would operate on a local level. in came new factories, where rich employers would employ thousands of workers. these workers would work for a wage. they would get a fixed some of money. yet, the employer would earn the profit of his employees work, whereas the employee would just earn the fixed wage. the employer woul.d own the means of production (machinery, and wat not), the employee would own nothing but the desire to earn the wage in order to survive. Marx realised that maybe it was nto the ideas that helped the material world, but in fact the economy and materialism that created ideas. for instance, the rich, bourgeousie would use religion to passify the masses, keep them under control. to create a sense of false consciousness, in which the lower class would feel welcomed and comforted to to. i.e work more in this life and hav a better life in heaven. Marx explained that history only progresses through a series of class conflicts within the underlying economic superstructure. throughout history, ideas and beliefs, in particular religion, are elements of false consciousness. i.e god is the all loving, he loves everyone, everyone is safe. Marx also talked about the future, about an inevitable revolution where the majority will seize power form the top. interestingly, although things seem all nice in countries like Britain and the USA, the gap between the rich and the poor is apparently widening. i can get the figures if u want.

anyway, the point is about religion. RPGlover, u ask who did this, who created this. why do u assume so much. Marx explains religion as "the opium of the people" indicating that it blinds and drugs the masses of the truth. i dunno about history being moved about economical changes (that would mean humans hav no influence in history), but his ideas on false consciousness can answer some of the questions u already thought hav been answered.

i had to revise all this shit for my politics exam, so im kindof a bit of a Marxist today, hehe.

Josep

January 3rd, 2002, 21:50

yea, seriously, im' just trying to make the point that you can still listen and try to understand the entire religion to make a good assumption about religion in general, maybe you have, i do not know, and im totally walking around your question like the U.S.A. marines do when they come to our school and never answer anything "exactly" correct:) I don't know my religion enough to answer a question like who created god, or who created anything, isn't that one of life's mysteries?

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 21:57

Originally posted by Reznor007

I'm not really sure what you are asking. But, you can't take the quaran, bibla, torah, or any other religious books as proof. They are not proof. They are stories.
well i felt that when i read the bible
but i didn't when i read the quran

Reznor007

January 3rd, 2002, 22:04

Considering that the bible and quaran are somewhat similar, I don't see how that is possible. :)

sk8bloke22

January 3rd, 2002, 22:06

thats becos u read the quaran first. u were brought up a muslim, and uve had a bias view in ur head. it aint ur thought, its just that what happens. u gonna read the bible objectively, as it will be natural. u said urself theat uve been reading the quaran since u were 10.

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 22:06

its not similar at all
read it
and u'll see

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 22:08

Originally posted by sk8bloke22
thats becos u read the quaran first. u were brought up a muslim, and uve had a bias view in ur head. it aint ur thought, its just that what happens. u gonna read the bible objectively, as it will be natural. u said urself theat uve been reading the quaran since u were 10.
i did and i was really impressed by it
and thats why i turned muslim
i really liked it and thats why and i really love my religion and i've got faith that there is god above that is powerfull enought to control this earth thats why i believe in god
and there is devils

RPGlover12

January 3rd, 2002, 22:14

Originally posted by Josep
yea, seriously, im' just trying to make the point that you can still listen and try to understand the entire religion to make a good assumption about religion in general, maybe you have, i do not know, and im totally walking around your question like the U.S.A. marines do when they come to our school and never answer anything "exactly" correct:) I don't know my religion enough to answer a question like who created god, or who created anything, isn't that one of life's mysteries?
ok u want an answer for who created god
When I first heard this question, I straightaway con*fessed again ‘and Muhammad is His Messenger’, for the Prophet, peace be upon him, predicted that this question would be raised. Indeed, he predicted a great many futu*re events of importance-all have come true and will continue to do so as time unfolds. On one occasion he said: A day will certainly come when some people will sit with their legs crossed and ask: ‘Given that God created everything, who created God?’ (Bukhari, ‘I‘tisam,’ 3).

Of course, those who put such questions are atheists or inclined to atheism and seek to lead others astray also. The purpose of their question is to avoid the responsibil*ity owed by a creature to the Creator, to avoid belief and worship. At best, the question is derived from the obser*vation of (what are taken to be) ‘cause and effect’ rela*tionships. Every circumstance can be thought of as an ‘effect’ and attributed to an antecedent circumstance or ‘cause’ which, in turn, is attributed to some circumstance antecedent to it, and so on. In the first place, it is obvi*ous to anyone who reasons objectively that the notion of ‘cause’ is only an hypothesis, it has no objective exis*tence: all that objectively exists is a particular, often (but not always) repeated sequence of circumstances. Sec*ondly, if this hypothesis is applied to existence as a whole, we cannot find a creator of it because each cr*eator must have a creator before that creator, in a never-ending chain. (In fact, the futile notion of a never-ending chain of creators was one of the arguments used by Mus*lim theologians to explain the necessity of believing in God.)

It is self-evident that the Creator must be Self-Subsistent and One, without like or equal. If any created being can be said to ‘cause’ anything, that capacity to ‘cause’ was itself created within that being. Thus, no being in the universe can be said to be self-existent; rather, it owes its existence to the Creator who alone is Self-Exis*tent as well as Self-Subsistent.

It is self-evident that the Creator must be Self-Subsis*tent and One, without like or equal. If any created being can be said to ‘cause’ anything, that capacity to ‘cause’ was itself created within that being. Thus, no being in the universe can be said to be self-existent; rather, it owes its existence to the Creator who alone is Self-Exis*tent as well as Self-Subsistent. It follows from the fact that the Creator alone truly creates that for each and every being He has determined all possible ‘causes’ and ‘effects’, all things whatever that come before or after it. Therefore, we speak of God as the Sustainer, who holds and gives life to His Creation from first to last. All ‘causes’ have their beginning in Him, and all ‘effects’ find their ending in Him. In truth, created things are no more than so many ciphers or zeros which, no matter how many we put in a series, add up to nothing, unless a positive ‘one’ is placed before the series to give it value. In just this way, the creation could have no real exis*tence, nor any value, except by God.

What we call ‘causes’ have no direct or independent influence in existence, no direct or independent ‘effects’. It may be that we need to speak of ‘causes and effects’ in order to understand how, in a short space and over a lit*tle period of time, some part of the Creation is made (by the Mercy of God) intelligible to us and available to us for our use. But even this but confirms our dependence upon God and our answerability before Him. It is not God who needs ‘causes and effects’ to create; rather it is we who need ‘causes and effects’ to understand what He has created. He alone is the First and the Last, the Eternal, the Initiator and the Determiner-and all our busy little efforts after cause and effect are but veils be*tween ourselves and His Majesty.

Let us then affirm once more: He, God, is One; God, the Self-Subsistent, Eternally-Besought-of-All; He neither begets nor was begotten; and nothing whatever is like unto Him.