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garrofi
June 4th, 2004, 18:27
chanka's members together with MAMEDEV dumper "The Guru" http://unemulated.emuunlim.com/ are working on naomi emulation, but we are getting that error which means the serial ID is missing from the emulation and to get it we need to dump the smt eeprom, so we need $$ to buy equipment to dump the missing Serial ID held in the surface-mounted EEPROM and once we hook up that data, it should boot further :)

you can see a video running NAOMI BIOS at http://www.emufanatics.com/emulators.php?func=fileinfo&id=167

if anyone can help, dc@chanka.org
Garrofi

[vEX]
June 4th, 2004, 19:05
I posted a little video over at EmuFanatics showing Chankast running the NAOMI BIOS up to the point where the screenshot was taken.
For those interested: http://www.emufanatics.com/emulators.php?func=fileinfo&id=167.

XBOX
June 4th, 2004, 19:19
guess chanka will be like a emu for both system :bouncy:

steamover
June 4th, 2004, 19:37
oh... that's great....we were discussing about naomi emulation.. and now... this happens :happy: .. but doesn't need a dongle the GDs? (for each game)... At least that says system16... Or are you trying with rom games? (well i know first it's the bios...)

Great job men...

botijoman
June 4th, 2004, 19:51
If I were a ritch man... I would donate $$$ to the chankast team... :whistling [background music here].

No, really. If I get a job this summer I know where part of my first earnings will gladly go.

See ya.

Heinster
June 4th, 2004, 20:56
hmmmm, sounds great....

But I heard alot of negative new concerning that the MAMEDEV team didn't want to start working because many games are still found in many arcades?????

mike20599
June 4th, 2004, 22:34
hmmmm, sounds great....

But I heard alot of negative new concerning that the MAMEDEV team didn't want to start working because many games are still found in many arcades?????

I believe [Haze], the head of MAME, doesn't want anything to do with Naomi emulation. That is all fine and good since MAME would be too slow to play Naomi games anyways. Perhaps some of the devs would be interested in helping Chanka emulate it though.

The Jedi
June 5th, 2004, 09:54
Wow ... such a good news !
How much do you need (the total amount ^^) for your shopping list ?

Good luck guys :)

Evrain
June 5th, 2004, 10:39
I know that maybe garrofi won't have enough time to answer but, which parts of Chankast had to be re-written or modified to insert NAOMI code to be loaded and executed?
I am dying to take a look at Chanka's source ^_^;;
Evrain

[vEX]
June 5th, 2004, 11:07
To run the NAOMI BIOS no modification is needed, that's how similiar the hardware is.

tonic
June 5th, 2004, 11:20
what kinda games does NAOMI run?

Stezo2k
June 5th, 2004, 11:34
']To run the NAOMI BIOS no modification is needed, that's how similiar the hardware is.

Yeah i thought it might be possible to show something, meaning how the hardware is almost identical, good luck to the team with naomi emulation :) sounding good so far, i will donate to help you with the project, it's not much but it all mounts up

Edited, because i never read the 1st post fully :)

[vEX]
June 5th, 2004, 11:39
Well, the only difference between the two are memory (and of course game storage) so it shouldn't be that hard (I think) once the encryption is broken/bypassed.

Taken from http://www.system16.com/sega/hrdw_naomi.html:

Notice that Naomi has twice the amount of main memory and graphics memory that Dreamcast has, so ports from Naomi to Dreamcast may involve more conversion time. Also note that the Naomi board has four times the sound memory of the Dreamcast, and the reason for this is because the Naomi board is'nt meant to spool redbook audio from the GD-ROM drive.

Evrain
June 5th, 2004, 13:23
You mean that you simply swapped the BIOSes inside Chanka main dir?
Pretty unusual, yet how the Serial ID would be added to the code? Another file like the Flash memory image or directly embedded into the mail code of the emulator?
Evrain

garrofi
June 5th, 2004, 13:23
Wow ... such a good news !
How much do you need (the total amount ^^) for your shopping list ?

Good luck guys :)

only about $100 is needed

Lilwolf
June 5th, 2004, 13:40
Have you tried contacting GURU yet?

He dumped a bunch of Naomi boards a year ago for ikura.. (the other dreamcast emulator)

He might have all the info + dumps for the developers.

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 13:41
what kinda games does NAOMI run?

There are many games on NAOMI
http://www.system16.com/sega/hrdw_naomi.html

The list of games I have that are available to be dumped is here...
http://unemulated.emuunlim.com/naomi/index.html

Guru

steamover
June 5th, 2004, 13:43
so are you going to try with ROM games only or Naomi GDROM too?

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 13:52
Have you tried contacting GURU yet?

He dumped a bunch of Naomi boards a year ago for ikura.. (the other dreamcast emulator)

He might have all the info + dumps for the developers.

We need to take this in small steps...
1. Dump the surface mounted EEPROM which contains the serial ID, which is checked by the hardware. It's a small file (128 bytes), but it's not dumped because I don't have the required adapter for it. I have everything else required, just not the adapter. You can see a pic of what is required here.....
http://www.logicalsys.com/prodpics/1603-16-6.jpg
It's quite small, about an inch square and will cost about $80 with postage.
This is why we need the small $$ donation to buy it.

2. Plug in the EEPROM and progress with the emulation further to the point where is starts running code in the carts (GDROM emulation will come MUCH later, there are serious protection issues)

Point 2 will not come easily. NAOMI can have about 100 errors on bootup. The systems checks a lot of the hardware and if things are not right, it will not work. Which means we have to take one problem at a time. The current problem is the missing serial ID. There can not be any progress further until that EEPROM is dumped.

Guru

Lilwolf
June 5th, 2004, 13:56
Thanks for the explination! (and understand the step - step needed with errors...)

I thought I read that you had already done some of this for the other dreamcast emulator. (but after making the post, I reread the first message that said that you where part of getting it posted).

but its early here.. I'm going with that as an excuse.

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 13:56
so are you going to try with ROM games only or Naomi GDROM too?

Everyone who is concerned about GDROM emulation should forget about that.
The protection on the NAOMI hardware will prevent it for a long time. This is not a simple DC, it's much more complex than that, although mostly the hardware is similar.
It would be more productive if GDROM emulation was not brought up again. For now we'll concentrate on cart-based games. When we know more, everyone will be informed :-)

Guru

steamover
June 5th, 2004, 14:44
thanks for replying Guru :)... i was interested on GDs because i read at system16 it uses a dongle key system... so that's why asked about.

Good luck at dumping and thanks for all.. i think you, Haze (good vacations!), Belmont, Nicola, smf and others developers are making a great job at MAME, ZiNc and now Naomist (lol)...these arcade machines will never be forgotten.

Nemesis
June 5th, 2004, 15:39
I'm curious about this "serial ID". What precisely is it used for, and how is it verified? Couldn't it be faked or bypassed for testing purposes, or is it physically required (eg, a decryption key or the like).

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 16:01
I'm curious about this "serial ID". What precisely is it used for, and how is it verified? Couldn't it be faked or bypassed for testing purposes, or is it physically required (eg, a decryption key or the like).

We're curious too, that's why we need to dump it.
Guessing is not an option.
You can guess if you want.....
Take the numbers 0 to 9 and the letters A to F (HEX constants)
now combine them in pairs and lay out 128 pairs where any pair can be any number from 00h to FFh and can be in any of the 128 locations.
save the file (will be 128 bytes long) and then try each file in the emulator. That should only take you about a year ;-)


Guru

Nemesis
June 5th, 2004, 16:10
I understand the imposibility in bruteforcing it, but the fact is that the bios is making the check, right? It shouldn't be too hard to read through the peice of code responsible for checking the ID, and figuring out how it's performing the check. If it's just a simple serial number, it'd be pretty easy to write a keygen of sorts just by taking a bit of time to analyse the code.

Evrain
June 5th, 2004, 16:53
Okay, since we started a "tech discussion", I join in:

1. the Board ID is referred to the "A" board (NAOMI itself) or it's unique for each game ("B") cart?
2. Am I wrong or cart-based NAOMIs are identified as Type D?
3. I like complicated stuff, so please don't hit me if I say this: I am sure donations for the adapter will come soon, however given the small size of the key why not script-generating (yes, I am a damn PHP coder :devil: ) the various possible files (a bunch at a time, of course!!!) and letting Chanka test it? Even if that would need a hack to restart the emulator with the next key file each time the BIOS returns the error code shown in garrofi's pic

I'm talking nonsense again....
Evrain

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 16:58
I understand the imposibility in bruteforcing it, but the fact is that the bios is making the check, right? It shouldn't be too hard to read through the peice of code responsible for checking the ID, and figuring out how it's performing the check. If it's just a simple serial number, it'd be pretty easy to write a keygen of sorts just by taking a bit of time to analyse the code.

Well, it might be possible to just hack the code and NOP out the bad bits we don't want. But that's not 'emulation'.
It could be more than a simple serial number, we don't know. Again, that's why we need to dump that EEPROM.

Guru

Evrain
June 5th, 2004, 17:00
You mean a decryption key based on the BOARD ID?
Evrain

Nemesis
June 5th, 2004, 17:01
I still think that a quick analysis of the bios itself would yeild the answer.

Out of curiosity, what location is that chip is mapped to in the memory space? What location in memory does it look to when it wants to read that ID?

Nemesis
June 5th, 2004, 17:04
Wow, a lot of posts all at once there. I wasn't suggesting to hack out the protection (well, not as a long term fix anyway, but I'd do it just to see how much further the thing would go anyway out of curiosity), I was suggesting analysing it, so we have a better idea what the serial number actually is, and how it's verified. Best case, we can derive the original serial number back from the game itself, so we don't have to dump these chips at all (though that is unlikely).

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 17:12
Okay, since we started a "tech discussion", I join in:

1. the Board ID is referred to the "A" board (NAOMI itself) or it's unique for each game ("B") cart?
2. Am I wrong or cart-based NAOMIs are identified as Type D?
3. I like complicated stuff, so please don't hit me if I say this: I am sure donations for the adapter will come soon, however given the small size of the key why not script-generating (yes, I am a damn PHP coder :devil: ) the various possible files (a bunch at a time, of course!!!) and letting Chanka test it? Even if that would need a hack to restart the emulator with the next key file each time the BIOS returns the error code shown in garrofi's pic

I'm talking nonsense again....
Evrain

Each main board would likely have a unique serial number. As it's been suggested, it probably conforms to an algorithm. However note the EEPROM is 128 bytes long. The serial is at most 10 or 20 bytes, so what else it contains is unknown, and would probably be needed by the hardware checks.

There are no 'types'. It's a main board and a cart, that's all.

As I've already said, 'hacking' isn't emulation.

Guru

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 17:18
Wow, a lot of posts all at once there. I wasn't suggesting to hack out the protection (well, not as a long term fix anyway, but I'd do it just to see how much further the thing would go anyway out of curiosity), I was suggesting analysing it, so we have a better idea what the serial number actually is, and how it's verified. Best case, we can derive the original serial number back from the game itself, so we don't have to dump these chips at all (though that is unlikely).

The problem is there are too many unknowns. If you look at how the ZN1 games in MAME were broken (http://unemulated.emuunlim.com/ZNx/index.html), we dumped a few security chips and then once we knew more we were able to brute force the remaining undumped chips. Without the initial dumps, that would simply not be possible.
Guessing with no clues is a waste of time.

Guru

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 17:23
You mean a decryption key based on the BOARD ID?
Evrain

no one mentioned anything about a decryption key. at least not for ROM-based carts. GDROMs do have a key, which is a small chip called a 'PIC'. But that's another puzzle for later.

Guru

Nemesis
June 5th, 2004, 17:26
You know the RevC of SegaSonic Arcade? It was emulated a few months back, desipte the fact that that little device which sat on the system bus, running god knows what peice of code, wasn't dumped. I cracked that protection, and I did it in 2 days. All that from reverse-engineering, with no idea of what data was actually on the cart. I cracked it from testing and observation. Hacking can be a tool which allows you to emulate something.

TheGuru
June 5th, 2004, 18:00
You know the RevC of SegaSonic Arcade? I cracked that protection, and I did it in 2 days.

so hack the NAOMI protection then.
Anyway, this line of questioning is just wasting my time, let's move on!


Guru

Nemesis
June 5th, 2004, 18:08
Hey, I'm up for it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an egomaniac (though not always humble either), I'm just a guy with too much time on his hands who works at a project night and day until it's done. I'm more than willing to give the NAOMI protection a shot.

The Jedi
June 5th, 2004, 18:55
Only 100$ ? I thought it was more expensive.
I can do a personnal donation of 50$ in July (i have already burnt all my monthly pay in Virtual Boy games), a complement of 50$ the next month and after all a public donation with special funds from my (emulation) website. We already did it with CAPS (http://www.caps-project.org/) and SMS Power (http://www.smspower.org/) so it would be a pleasure to help an active and dynamic project.

mike20599
June 6th, 2004, 17:07
So would hacking it make it work, but perhaps not the exact way it does on a real machine?

Freesnake
June 6th, 2004, 17:56
there are so many classic games on naomi……I am slobbering waiting for the new development……

Clessy
June 6th, 2004, 19:43
Maybe it's just me but wouldnt it be easier and much cheaper to do Atomiswave emulation next instead of Naomi?
Aomiswave is the excate same HD as the DC but with a different medium for games. Also it only runs around $400 vs the $1000 that a Naomi cost. It also doesnt have lock out or any advance secruity means.

HowardC
June 6th, 2004, 19:57
Maybe it's just me but wouldnt it be easier and much cheaper to do Atomiswave emulation next instead of Naomi?
Aomiswave is the excate same HD as the DC but with a different medium for games. Also it only runs around $400 vs the $1000 that a Naomi cost. It also doesnt have lock out or any advance secruity means.

Probably because the games just plain suck on that system. ;)

Seriously though, you have a point. I just think a lot more people are excited about naomi than the lesser known atomiswave.

Clessy
June 6th, 2004, 21:20
Probably because the games just plain suck on that system. ;)

Seriously though, you have a point. I just think a lot more people are excited about naomi than the lesser known atomiswave.
How can you say the games plain suck when only 5 games have been made for it and 4 of them are amazingly good?
Guilty Gear X 1.5 and Isuka are amazing. Isuka is one of the coolest fighting games ever with its 4 player battles.
Rumble of the Fish is alot cooler than any of the recent SNK Playmore or Capcom fighters.
And that other 3d fighter looks amazing too and compares to Tekken 4 in graphics. I think thats what Dreamcast games would look like now if it was still around too bad eh =(

Also another system that might be possable to emulate thanks to Chanka would be Hikaru yet another DC based system. It use's a different 3d engine however which is still actually a PVR2 based graphics card with advanced effects mostly for fire.

Clessy
June 7th, 2004, 03:42
Naomi Hack (http://www.angelfire.com/nj4/clessy/images/Naomi.JPG)
This is what you get when you edit the bios to not look for the EEPROM.

Yeah so we can stop suggesting that idea now. Btw Atomiswave bios boot also.

Clessy
June 7th, 2004, 03:44
BTW I have both EEPROM files I believe.
EPR-21578D.A997h
EPR-E21578.B389h

Evrain
June 7th, 2004, 10:20
The image cannot be seen... Angelfir is a bit *****y about remote linking :)
Anyway Guru is right, we are just wasting time like this. Clessy, which kind of chip holds the AW BIOS code?
Evrain

Heinster
June 7th, 2004, 11:48
. I think thats what Dreamcast games would look like now if it was still around too bad eh =(

*COUGH*DOA2*COUGH*
*COUGH*Soul Calibur1*COUGH*
*COUGH*Shen Mue1/2*COUGH*

"Graphically" up to par with all the other games found in the Arcades....(not concidering the playability).... And atleast as good or even better then Atomiswave... The NAOMI even surpassed with VF4 and many others

Evrain
June 7th, 2004, 13:41
DC and NAOMI died WAY too early... They deserved to be the best consoles, not Sony stuff.
Evrain

Jjangthekid
June 7th, 2004, 17:21
wait isn't cvs2 and mvc2.. used on naomi boards?..so is it possible to play those games if naomi board is emulated?

Jjangthekid
June 7th, 2004, 17:22
and one more..to play naomi games..woudl u need the original cart?..or the isos and bin files..just like chanka?

armoredspidy
June 8th, 2004, 04:59
wait isn't cvs2 and mvc2.. used on naomi boards?..so is it possible to play those games if naomi board is emulated?

As Guru pointed out with the link to system16.com, you
can find all your answers to what Naomi has to offer, there. :whistling

Anyways thanks to Garrofi and the Chankast team for a beautiful, working
dreamcast emulator! Now that Guru is on-board, Naomi emulation is a
done deal(eventually)! I gladly donated the other day, and wondered if
you guys have enough funds yet, to dump the serial id? :party:

armoredspidy
June 13th, 2004, 19:16
Looks like The Guru got rid of the Naomi dump status page...uh oh! :term:

KyJelly
June 13th, 2004, 20:23
what are the chances of getting hikaru emulation? is it hard to got from 64bit to 128bit?

KyJelly
June 13th, 2004, 20:26
i guess if u could do hikaru u could also do naomi 2 :)

tomsepins
July 5th, 2004, 15:34

tomsepins
July 5th, 2004, 15:39
i have a amd athlon xp 2400 and when i try to run Chankast it says that my processor don't suport SSE, what is the problem it should suport didn't he? can someone help me please send your mesages to tomsepins@hotmail.com
sorry my english but i'm portuguese. thank's

Heinster
July 5th, 2004, 16:59
Well you post in the wrong part.... So not likely the right people will find your problem here....

GD666
July 7th, 2004, 09:41
HI,Everybody :party:
I am at the moment working on a gd-rom driver
based on exportation & modifications of WINCE & KOS original drivers
I m working with an old external scsi cd reader which seems to
show strange decoding properties (I've had part of original "revolt" gd-rom decoded :cheers: before my PC crashes :ranting: :ranting: :ranting:
tellin' U when it's allright... :bye3:



Nothing is impossible.....

StuMcBill
July 7th, 2004, 09:51
HI,Everybody :party:
I am at the moment working on a gd-rom driver
based on exportation & modifications of WINCE & KOS original drivers
I m working with an old external scsi cd reader which seems to
show strange decoding properties (I've had part of original "revolt" gd-rom decoded :cheers: before my PC crashes :ranting: :ranting: :ranting:
tellin' U when it's allright... :bye3:



Nothing is impossible.....

Sounds good, keep us up to date with your progress!!

GD666
July 7th, 2004, 09:56
Sounds good, keep us up to date with your progress!!
no prob even though i dunno when it 'll be ok!!! :cool:
I ll have to fix my pc first! :term:

GD666
July 7th, 2004, 10:13
OK my fury machine works anew!!!!! :party: :holiday: :party:
going for my devs but staying online on this machine
real time updating.... :robot:

EvilWays
July 8th, 2004, 11:25
We need to take this in small steps...
1. Dump the surface mounted EEPROM which contains the serial ID, which is checked by the hardware. It's a small file (128 bytes), but it's not dumped because I don't have the required adapter for it. I have everything else required, just not the adapter. You can see a pic of what is required here.....
http://www.logicalsys.com/prodpics/1603-16-6.jpg
It's quite small, about an inch square and will cost about $80 with postage.
This is why we need the small $$ donation to buy it.

Which one of your machines does this adapter plug into (Data I/O Unisite or TopMax Universal Programmer)? :naughty:

francesco74
August 14th, 2004, 11:33
there's news?

MasterPhW
August 15th, 2004, 01:37
there's news?
If there would be new news, you would be one of these ppl, who now it at first, because you're a emutalk member, so stop asking for it!

francesco74
August 15th, 2004, 18:02
If there would be new news, you would be one of these ppl, who now it at first, because you're a emutalk member, so stop asking for it!


????

ickle_moi
August 15th, 2004, 18:42
is dreamcast/naomi also related to sega model 3 hardware? (or am i just dreaming)

francesco74
August 15th, 2004, 19:40
model3 and DC/naomi are different HW, perhaps anybody of the emu developers works on both project.

Evrain
August 18th, 2004, 10:51
Just a little side thought. Emulating NAOMI would be extremely dangerous even for more recent machines, such as the AtomisWave hardware: certain hw components from 1998 or so are still not emulated because the driver could easily be adapted for the newest kinds of PCB, let alone PC-based ones such as Taito TypeX (I'm eagerly awaiting for a Linux-based-PCB, will they ever learn?)
You really want to play NAOMI games so badly, even if it could cost so dearly to Sega/sammy and other companies? Again what happened to the glorious SNK?
Evrain

jack
August 18th, 2004, 11:15
Just a little side thought. Emulating NAOMI would be extremely dangerous even for more recent machines, such as the AtomisWave hardware: certain hw components from 1998 or so are still not emulated because the driver could easily be adapted for the newest kinds of PCB, let alone PC-based ones such as Taito TypeX (I'm eagerly awaiting for a Linux-based-PCB, will they ever learn?)
You really want to play NAOMI games so badly, even if it could cost so dearly to Sega/sammy and other companies? Again what happened to the glorious SNK?
Evrain

I'm pretty sure emulation didn't lead to the destruction of SNK. It was probably the decline of interest in arcade halls and people preferring console over arcade game. I think the arcade market will probably be dead within a few years given the advancement of all the new console systems.

Arcade used to be popular because people didn't have consoles, and there were less form of entertainment. Now with the internet, pc/console games/ yugioh card trading, its just but a fade. I used to remember there were arcade halls at my local mall, now its replaced by a eb,gamespot,radioshack.

MasterPhW
August 18th, 2004, 11:32
Just a little side thought. Emulating NAOMI would be extremely dangerous even for more recent machines, such as the AtomisWave hardware: certain hw components from 1998 or so are still not emulated because the driver could easily be adapted for the newest kinds of PCB, let alone PC-based ones such as Taito TypeX (I'm eagerly awaiting for a Linux-based-PCB, will they ever learn?)
You really want to play NAOMI games so badly, even if it could cost so dearly to Sega/sammy and other companies? Again what happened to the glorious SNK?
Evrain
NAOMI isn't aktive anymore I think... AtomisWave is still active, that's why the authors don't want to emulate it yet...

Evrain
August 18th, 2004, 19:52
NAOMI is the hardware base for AtomisWave, and IS active: just come to Italy and you'll see just how may NAOMI systems are still up and running here, along with Model 3 Step 1.5/2 and the last surviving MVS cabinets.
No, those systems should definitely be emulated for the sake of historical memory, as is MAME's goal, but not as long as they will be a way to the destruction of arcade companies.

SNK was shut down because bootleggers could create duplicates of MVS cartridges by using Salmoria's detailed info on their encryption system; bootlegs are always cheaper than usual. And no matter what, an arcade hall is always more exciting than your small room filled with game discs: where's the point of video gaming if you can't share the experience with those good 10-15 friends? It's pointless.
And I like Yu-Gi-Oh! games too, but guess my wallet is not big enough to keep buying expansions :D
In my opinion, arcade halls, arcade gaming itself is still alive and kicking (just see the newest releases from Psikyo, Cave and Takumi), and it's better this way: it's a piece of history, and another way to turn off the PC/TV, go out and play.
Boring enough, I know :)
Evrain

mezkal
August 19th, 2004, 19:03
NAOMI is the hardware base for AtomisWave, and IS active: just come to Italy and you'll see just how may NAOMI systems are still up and running here, along with Model 3 Step 1.5/2 and the last surviving MVS cabinets.
No, those systems should definitely be emulated for the sake of historical memory, as is MAME's goal, but not as long as they will be a way to the destruction of arcade companies.

SNK was shut down because bootleggers could create duplicates of MVS cartridges by using Salmoria's detailed info on their encryption system; bootlegs are always cheaper than usual. And no matter what, an arcade hall is always more exciting than your small room filled with game discs: where's the point of video gaming if you can't share the experience with those good 10-15 friends? It's pointless.
And I like Yu-Gi-Oh! games too, but guess my wallet is not big enough to keep buying expansions :D
In my opinion, arcade halls, arcade gaming itself is still alive and kicking (just see the newest releases from Psikyo, Cave and Takumi), and it's better this way: it's a piece of history, and another way to turn off the PC/TV, go out and play.
Boring enough, I know :)
Evrain


Well said Evrain. I agree. I do think that NOAMI should be left out of THIS emulator. Here in Australia there are many active arcades still running AW and NOAM 1/2 machines. Sammy/SEGA still need these machines to be the real deal if they are too continue producing games and the hardware (parts etc) for them. I think that the authors of this emu have done splendid work so far, so I don't want anyone confusing muy opinion with some sort of silly directive. The authors decide what they emulate not me, not any of you. That said I do feel that NOAMI emulation drags this emu perilously close to certain illegalities that could easily be avoided.

The Salmoria/SNK is one such example. It didn't take long for many SNK bootlegs to reach the arcades here. Though I'm not sure that I agree that piracy was the single nail in SNK's coffin. Their attempts at portable units and thier incredibly slow development times coupled with thier stranglehold on expensive cartridge pricing all took part in thier exit from the arcade stage.

There are always less than scrupulous people who like to profit from these sorts of excercises. I think by pushing NOAMI emulation into the much slower developing MAME project we can avoid the actions of said less than scrupulous persons. If not avoid them then certainly make it a lot harder for them to profit so quickly.

my 2c.

Evrain
August 19th, 2004, 20:00
And I agree with you Mez :)
It's something like a game dump: leave it "undumped" and people will be forced to buy the real thing; get the code outta the board (and boast bout it on the Net) and there'll be an hunt for the data :D
Same for NAOMI and co.: get the docs, understand how these things work, and leave it alone. Then, after 6 or 7 years, just re-translate everything into code and no harm to MAME is done :)
Evrain

Russ
August 19th, 2004, 20:43
I think another factor as to why Arcades were/are no longer popular is because of the visual effects. The hardware used in the arcades seemed to be in leaps and bounds ahead of the consoles that the consumers were given to purchase. Back then we had Mega Drives/32x's and Sega Saturns to play poorer quality ports of games like Virtua Fighter/Racing/Cop/whatever, when in the arcade you can have the proper visual experience. When Virtua Fighter 3 came out, I didn't think those type of graphics were possible, and how hot did Scud Racer look? And that was on a Model 3 board! The looks alone made me WANT to play those games cause they looked so gosh darn pretty and 'lifelike'. I was given the impression that console owners would not be given that luxury.

But these days you can now buy affordable consoles that pull off all the pretty visual effects that those arcade machines once did plus LOTS more. I never thought DC emulation would be possible after seeing the lush graphics on Soul Calibur or Sonic Adventure 2 on my TV screen... now only a few years later they're replicated on PC perfectly and i'm still left amazed!

EvilWays
September 7th, 2004, 11:01
And I agree with you Mez :)
It's something like a game dump: leave it "undumped" and people will be forced to buy the real thing; get the code outta the board (and boast bout it on the Net) and there'll be an hunt for the data :D
Same for NAOMI and co.: get the docs, understand how these things work, and leave it alone. Then, after 6 or 7 years, just re-translate everything into code and no harm to MAME is done :)
Evrain

At this point, it's uncertain how long it will be before the Naomi hardware is fully emulated. It might be a few weeks or a few years...

Evrain
September 7th, 2004, 12:37
I wouldn't say that, given the progresses of Chankast... I wouldn't be suprised either if the authors have stopped developing the program for that reason. And I agree with them.
Evrain

veritron
September 7th, 2004, 22:13
i don't think naomi emu would kill the arcades.

i mean, seriously, a home user isn't going to spend 1k on one game, ever. i could understand discouraging people from playing the emulated arcade cart rather than buying the console ports of the games, but most naomi ports came out for DC before anyway - and that already died.

and you'd have to spend quite a bit more than the 1k us you could use to get a real naomi system w/ game on a pc system capable of emulating naomi games at full speed, so arcade operators aren't going to simply buy a pc, monitor and an x-arcade stick and put it in a custom cabinet.

admittedly retail naomi systems probably sell for more, but for 1k buy-it-now you could get a ready-to-rumble naomi arcade mech on ebay right now.

Evrain
September 8th, 2004, 10:58
The problem is: NAOMI technology has now been included in MANY other systems, such as AtomisWave and lots more, so emulating certain parts of the hardware would mean breaking more quickly the protections of AW. And since I don't want Sega to shut down, I prefer things the way they are.
Same thing happened in MAME: read previous posts.
Evrain

mike20599
September 11th, 2004, 12:09
Luckily you self-proclaimed morality police of emulation don't influence what gets dumped and what gets emulated. It will continue as it always has.

Evrain
September 11th, 2004, 21:03
I was just exposing my point of view.... Everyone can do what he wants. I don't even want to reply.
Evrain

gilgamesh
May 7th, 2006, 19:40
Chankast 0.2a + EPR-23605B (Japan)

sremulador
May 9th, 2006, 00:53
post faq for load noami bios e pois bios for users, trank you...

Agozer
May 9th, 2006, 09:37
post faq for load noami bios e pois bios for users, trank you...
name the NAOMI BIOS to Dc_bios.bin and overwrite the original Dreamcast BIOs with it. No need for a FAQ.

sremulador
May 10th, 2006, 22:18
trank