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Heinster
June 2nd, 2004, 15:09
I know there is the code of not emulating an arcade game within 3 years of it's release.... But I guess this does open doors to naomi emulation or not? :bouncy:

steamover
June 2nd, 2004, 17:08
well, seems that rbelmont, haze and others MAME devs are not very interested on Naomi emulation yet. Maybe on 1 o 2 years.

At that time, there'll be a near perfect (i hope :P ) chankast, and others (icarus?), so i'm sure they'll take profit of investigation/coding made by DC emus authors. And the possibility of appearing a Zinc-like naomi emu... i don't think so... not yet.

Heinster
June 2nd, 2004, 18:14
well, seems that rbelmont, haze and others MAME devs are not very interested on Naomi emulation yet. Maybe on 1 o 2 years.

At that time, there'll be a near perfect (i hope :P ) chankast, and others (icarus?), so i'm sure they'll take profit of investigation/coding made by DC emus authors. And the possibility of appearing a Zinc-like naomi emu... i don't think so... not yet.

Well to be honest: I'm totally not interested in Naomi adopted by MAME... They only wanna make it emulated 100% which will make it slow as hell on MAME... We all seen what happened to all the zinc games on MAME :( I like MAME so don't get me wrong but they're so focussed on emulating every single piece of hardware of a machine the games are hurting under that....

But as far as I understood Naomi and Naomi 2 are exactly the same only with more memory, so I guess emulation shouldn't be so hard for a pc would it? For the people who don't know what beauties NAOMI brought forward http://www.system16.com/sega/index.html

I do get the rules of not emulating games that are not older then 3 years... But can you imagine the frustration of not having any arcades anymore for the last 9 years (in holland) I believe there are 3 arcade halls left in the whole netherlands :term:

ector
June 2nd, 2004, 18:24
Naomi is basically a dreamcast with double the RAM and sound memory. Naomi 2, however, has an additional T&L processor. The only thing known about it is that it's called "Elan", so that might be a quite difficult hurdle to emulation. In any case, to my knowledge neither Naomi 1 or 2 protection has been cracked.

Whether Naomi emulation should be done or not is another question.

jdsony
June 2nd, 2004, 21:28
When Naomi does get added to Mame even if they have access to Chankast's source it will likely be written from scratch for Mame. Even if it get's added in 2 years it will probably still be slow although the move to 64bit processors may prove to be more beneficial than we yet realize. Some youthful coder with no morals will probably work on a Naomi only emu before then though and then we'll be playing in style.

steamover
June 2nd, 2004, 23:21
well, i think naomi emulation will be on MAME (starting on 2 years?)... and almost sure too that will appear a zinc-like naomi emu...i mean, an emu optimized like Zinc, using acceleration (not emulating chips like MAME), etc.

I don't know when will occur... but DC game format and PCB game formats maybe aren't too different, the hardware it's pretty similar, so program and graphics formats should be similar (after decryption :happy: /dumping).... an adaptation (instead of load isos, load roms) of a DC emu maybe works.

Anyways... this is all speculation :whistling .. and of course, i think it's not good for SEGA emulate those arcades... yet.


of not having any arcades anymore for the last 9 years (in holland

mmm... i didn't know it... are arcades illegal in Holland? :smurf:

Heinster
June 3rd, 2004, 07:28
Nope.... But gambling machines seem to be more luctrative... It did help me quit my gambling addiction :P I mean no more arcades in those halls meant far less atraction to those gamblingmachines....

But it must have been 9 years ago when the last arcadehall was fully active.... Even in other bigger cities they have dissapeared...

steamover
June 3rd, 2004, 10:22
ohpsss... here there're less arcade halls, but still there're some at big malls..

then the only you can do is to wait.. maybe someday someone will rip naomi GDs (if possible...), encryption, etc.. and start a new emu (easy task :happy:...)

...time will tell :P

Heinster
June 3rd, 2004, 12:27
ohpsss... here there're less arcade halls, but still there're some at big malls..

then the only you can do is to wait.. maybe someday someone will rip naomi GDs (if possible...), encryption, etc.. and start a new emu (easy task :happy:...)

...time will tell :P


Well atleast we got the next best thing with Chankast which already plays some of those naomi games (and alot more)... Which also helps us keep our cool waiting for cps3 emulation.... Still would like to see Warzard though(never seen it :( except for screenshots)

DarkKnight38
June 3rd, 2004, 23:36
who says that naomi needs to be in mame to be emulated? Maybe once the dreamcast side of things goes fine, even chankast, icarus, or some other equally far along emulator can impliment it themselves. Since naomi is so similar, they already have most of the parts there working. Why not?

Flash
June 4th, 2004, 00:36
ohpsss... here there're less arcade halls, but still there're some at big malls..
here's a lots of small arcade halls at cinemas and HoTD2 machines are quite common.
I've even found a few extremely rare machines - Sonic arcade, Star Gladiator 2 (Plasma Sword), R360 versions of G-Loc and Wing War, Airline Pilot and...
Hornet 1 beast (http://www.system16.com/namco/hrdw_magicedge.html) :w00t:
Only problem - same games in most of arcades - a few Sega and Namco racing games (ManxTT, Sega Rally, Cyber Cycles, Rave Racer etc) and pistol shooters, fighting games are quite rare (except Tekken 2-3, VF3-4)

DarkKnight38
June 4th, 2004, 03:18
you get virtual vighter? The only fighting games we get are those stupid tekken games, and maybe the occasional marvel vs capcom game. All the arcades around here are pure ass. There's only a couple of them in a couple of malls, and they don't have anything good. If you want to drive 45 minutes, there's a great arcade, but it still has nothing in the way of fighting games.

HowardC
June 4th, 2004, 05:55
The problem with naomi emulation, as I see it is the decryption. If the mame devs were on board then it might be a non-issue, but as-is it's a major one. Why? Over the past few years who have been the most responsible for decrypting roms? The guru, who generally goes along with the mame devs opinions about when a system should be emulated, razoola who has almost fell off the face of the earth, and R. Belmont, who has already said that he feels it's too soon.

You guys act like the hardware decryption isn't a big deal.... it's a HUGE deal. Afterall, cps2 emulation was held up for years because of it. Cps3 emulation is still held up becuase of it.

Heinster
June 4th, 2004, 09:55
The problem with naomi emulation, as I see it is the decryption. If the mame devs were on board then it might be a non-issue, but as-is it's a major one. Why? Over the past few years who have been the most responsible for decrypting roms? The guru, who generally goes along with the mame devs opinions about when a system should be emulated, razoola who has almost fell off the face of the earth, and R. Belmont, who has already said that he feels it's too soon.

You guys act like the hardware decryption isn't a big deal.... it's a HUGE deal. Afterall, cps2 emulation was held up for years because of it. Cps3 emulation is still held up becuase of it.

You are mentioning capcom hardware..... We are talking about SEGA hardware here.... They already gone through model 1, 2(partially) and 3...

steamover
June 4th, 2004, 15:04
We are talking about SEGA hardware here....

well.. naomi GD games use a dongle key...i don't know about naomi rom games..but i suppose it uses some encryption too.

Heinster
June 4th, 2004, 21:04
well.. naomi GD games use a dongle key...i don't know about naomi rom games..but i suppose it uses some encryption too.

Hmmm never saw a naomi machine (no more arcades here)... So I didn't know.... But what I do know is that the chanka/naomi support is much bigger in the terms of people who are working on it.... All the more if the message is true about MAMEDEVteam being interested....

HowardC
June 5th, 2004, 00:30
You are mentioning capcom hardware..... We are talking about SEGA hardware here.... They already gone through model 1, 2(partially) and 3...


Don't insult my intelligence, I'm quite aware of that. The fact remains, the hardware dongle and the minor hardware encryption still need to be broken and the only three people qualified to do so are the ones I mentioned. If help isn't gotten from at least one of them then there is next to no hope of getting a namoi emulator to actually boot up games. They do the decryption for more can just capcom play systems ya know. :P

And for the record, the sega model games aren't encrypted (technically model 2 and 3 are, but if you want to call that encryption).

Regardless, if the rumors are true then the guru is on board, so this is a non-issue at this point. The guru is the master of brute force decryption and has the often expensive tools required to do so. Thus it will be possible now. :happy:

smf
June 5th, 2004, 08:38
Don't insult my intelligence, I'm quite aware of that. The fact remains, the hardware dongle and the minor hardware encryption still need to be broken and the only three people qualified to do so are the ones I mentioned. If help isn't gotten from at least one of them then there is next to no hope of getting a namoi emulator to actually boot up games. They do the decryption for more can just capcom play systems ya know. :P

And for the record, the sega model games aren't encrypted (technically model 2 and 3 are, but if you want to call that encryption).

Regardless, if the rumors are true then the guru is on board, so this is a non-issue at this point. The guru is the master of brute force decryption and has the often expensive tools required to do so. Thus it will be possible now. :happy:

Guru is the hardware guy, not generally involved with brute force decryption. If you need software run on the original board then he is your best bet. Dumping roms is his main contribution, though the last I heard he couldn't dump Naomi roms ( they are the same as the namco system 10 roms that he can't dump ).

smf

smf
June 5th, 2004, 08:57
We all seen what happened to all the zinc games on MAME


No you haven't.

The PSX code in MAME is a work in progress. The only reason any of it is released now is to share the information.

Emulators like ZiNc have focused on speed first and compatibility later & it's much harder to debug an emulator if it's optimised to hell. ZiNc is going to benefit from the work put into MAME ( tekken, sfex2 fixes and **** loads more games ).

Even if the dynamic recompiler for MAME doesn't happen then in a couple of years time you still ought to have perfect games running at full speed. A faster cpu won't fix the issues with ZiNc 0.9.

If you want the hires GPU plugins that ZiNc allows then you might be out of luck, but IMO the games look better in low res anyway.

smf